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- #61
Not sure, but it's 80 F here in NC today
3B won't start, or even fire
- Thread starter Diesel Wannabe
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- Thread starter
- #62
Update from some testing today.
I used a vacuum/handheld pump to put some pressure into the fuel feed system (disconnected the line coming from the water separator). The system would not hold pressure, I'm pretty sure I could hear air escaping under pressure, but couldn't isolate it. I then added some UV fuel dye to the line and used the 3B hand pump to try and bleed the system, still getting a lot of air. After getting fuel to the filter, I again gave the system a little pressure with the hand pump. I see blue (UV reaction with the special light & glasses) at 2 places:
I used a vacuum/handheld pump to put some pressure into the fuel feed system (disconnected the line coming from the water separator). The system would not hold pressure, I'm pretty sure I could hear air escaping under pressure, but couldn't isolate it. I then added some UV fuel dye to the line and used the 3B hand pump to try and bleed the system, still getting a lot of air. After getting fuel to the filter, I again gave the system a little pressure with the hand pump. I see blue (UV reaction with the special light & glasses) at 2 places:
- At the hose to crimp connection on the banjo feed line up to the filter (bottom end). I had this one built at a hydraulic shop last year as I couldn't find an OEM one - are there any sources for these?
- I see a thin blue line where the 3B hand pump body bolts to the block. Looks like the diesel must be getting past that internal seal. I did rebuild the entire 3B hand pump assembly a couple of months ago as part of efforts to isolate the leak. Should I rebuild it again? If fuel gets past the 3B hand pump assembly does that mean it's getting into the oil?
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- #64
I've already moved on from the Bosch and am using an all metal Toyota pump. All banjo washers are new and show no leaks.
hmmm
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- #66
I'm still down/stuck without a solution. I replaced the lift pump (yes, all new banjo washers) and have tried different hand pumps (all metal Toyota, Bosch). I am currently getting fuel to all injectors but it just won't start. Injectors have been rebuilt, and I've driven ~300 miles on them. I am getting suspicious of injector pump. Maybe it sat too long and is now degrading. It's the inline model from a '85 BJ70. Are there any tests I can do in my garage or do I need to pull it and ship it off?
Any other thoughts?
Any other thoughts?
Do the hand pump air pressure test again this time spray soapy water all over all the connections up to the pump and all over the pump.
@Diesel Wannabe I haven’t read all the way back to get a refresher, but have you tried a little starting fluid to see if it tries to run?
Get the “safe” starting fluid and only use a little.
Get the “safe” starting fluid and only use a little.
When you use the starting fluid, don't use the glow plugs or grid heater or anything else it might have to heat the air. Practice before you spray. You only need a "Sniff" of it in the motor to tell you whether you have compression or not. You'll know if you didn't use enough, it will hit the starter harder than normal cranking but won't knock or light off. If you use too much, it will clank or knock loudly and may fire up, but it's going to make a racket of noise.
If it fires up and dies, your injector pump isn't working.
Make sure the fuel shutoff mechanism is operating properly. Whatever type it has, you may need to inspect all the parts to make sure it didn't jam or gum up. Injection pumps don't normally just "die" and not run at all unless you shear a key or a bolt or they fall apart internally. If it was running when you shut it off, just reverse the process of shutting it down and inspect each component. If you had air, the only way to get it out is to bleed the lines by cranking the motor till it squirts out of the loosened fittings at the injectors. You can air-lock a pump, but normally they will clear themselves unless you are still sucking air. Try pinching off the fuel return line when you aren't trying to start the motor, just in case it is sucking air backward through the system due to gravity pulling the fuel to the lowest part (tank).
If it fires up and dies, your injector pump isn't working.
Make sure the fuel shutoff mechanism is operating properly. Whatever type it has, you may need to inspect all the parts to make sure it didn't jam or gum up. Injection pumps don't normally just "die" and not run at all unless you shear a key or a bolt or they fall apart internally. If it was running when you shut it off, just reverse the process of shutting it down and inspect each component. If you had air, the only way to get it out is to bleed the lines by cranking the motor till it squirts out of the loosened fittings at the injectors. You can air-lock a pump, but normally they will clear themselves unless you are still sucking air. Try pinching off the fuel return line when you aren't trying to start the motor, just in case it is sucking air backward through the system due to gravity pulling the fuel to the lowest part (tank).
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- #70
Progress report.
- 2 days ago I was able to fire it up with two bumps of starting fluid. It then idled for 10 minutes and I took it for a test ride, just a couple of blocks. It would restart normally while it was still hot. I found a fuel leak in the injector return pipe hose and added a new clamp there.
- 1 day ago - still wouldn't start with glows and diesel (I do see a 1.5-2v drop while glowing, also it was 82 F degrees outside, maybe 28 C). Again, 2 shots of starting fluid and I was again running. Took it on a slightly longer ride.
Good news is that the fuel seems to be holding overnight without letting in air. Bad news is that I'm having a hard time starting, despite good compression (395, 390, 380, 400). Another note/symptom - I am getting white smoke (too much fuel I believe). This is with a turbo that is pumping lots of air. Since I use a PTO cable as a cutoff, I tried to ween it off a bit to get a cleaner burn, but no luck.
I did have the IP off about 18 months ago to change the diaphragm. Does this sound like an IP timing issue? I'm thinking that it may be retarded - hard starts and white smoke. I should rotate it towards the engine a bit to advance the injection timing, correct? Thoughts?
- 2 days ago I was able to fire it up with two bumps of starting fluid. It then idled for 10 minutes and I took it for a test ride, just a couple of blocks. It would restart normally while it was still hot. I found a fuel leak in the injector return pipe hose and added a new clamp there.
- 1 day ago - still wouldn't start with glows and diesel (I do see a 1.5-2v drop while glowing, also it was 82 F degrees outside, maybe 28 C). Again, 2 shots of starting fluid and I was again running. Took it on a slightly longer ride.
Good news is that the fuel seems to be holding overnight without letting in air. Bad news is that I'm having a hard time starting, despite good compression (395, 390, 380, 400). Another note/symptom - I am getting white smoke (too much fuel I believe). This is with a turbo that is pumping lots of air. Since I use a PTO cable as a cutoff, I tried to ween it off a bit to get a cleaner burn, but no luck.
I did have the IP off about 18 months ago to change the diaphragm. Does this sound like an IP timing issue? I'm thinking that it may be retarded - hard starts and white smoke. I should rotate it towards the engine a bit to advance the injection timing, correct? Thoughts?
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White smoke and hard starts CAN be an indication of the timing being off.
You need to set the timing to stock at first to see if it changes behavior at all.
However since you have a turbo 3B, people tend to retard the timing on IDI engines when they turbo them.
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- #72
The timing is at the stock marks. Given the compression numbers I have and the hard start/white smoke, do you have a more likely cause for that behavior that I can look into?
The correct way to check the timing is to spill time it off the #1 line on the pump.
Does this white smoke go away when the engine warms up?
Still feels like an air leak issue.
- Thread starter
- #74
The white smoke doesn't go away when the engine warms up. It does start when warm/hot without starting fluid but still white smoke. How does air in the lines lead to white smoke/over fueling?
white smoke isnt too much fuel, its either air or head gasket
Sniff the white smoke, you should know if its rad fluid it will be kinda sweet,
You have other air leaks somewhere or clogged fuel delivery somewhere or some combo of this, ie clogged water seperator/sedimenter, blocked screen before the hand pump, leaking hand pump, other bad copper washers on the fuel lines, just get a clear piece of tube as fuel line to show you the air(or the lack of)
sorry if any of this was went over above, i have no attention span
Sniff the white smoke, you should know if its rad fluid it will be kinda sweet,
You have other air leaks somewhere or clogged fuel delivery somewhere or some combo of this, ie clogged water seperator/sedimenter, blocked screen before the hand pump, leaking hand pump, other bad copper washers on the fuel lines, just get a clear piece of tube as fuel line to show you the air(or the lack of)
sorry if any of this was went over above, i have no attention span
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Can you get a video of the white smoke?
I would really spill time it. You can then tell the timing and make sure it’s right, especially since you took the IP off. I know you said you matched the marks but I would verify it’s right.
I would really spill time it. You can then tell the timing and make sure it’s right, especially since you took the IP off. I know you said you matched the marks but I would verify it’s right.
Spill time the IP to factory specs
Bosch hand primer pump dont bother with the metal Toyota one,
You said fuel lines have been replaced? Were they crimped on by a shop? or just a hose onto the banjo and a hose clamp?
Unsure what you mean about the turbo and the PTO cable setup but would be getting that back to stock, will be hard to start if it is running lean with to much air.
Bypass the factory water separator as they are known to suck air through them.
If it has super glow rip that out, rewire the factory relay and install 12v glow plugs.
****** check the metal return fuel line from injectors to transfer pump, if the bolt retaining this pipe isnt removed when changing the transfer pump it can bend and crack the pipe then suck air through the return side ******
Never had a 3B that wont start even one sitting out in the weather for 10+ years fired 2nd kick.
Bosch hand primer pump dont bother with the metal Toyota one,
You said fuel lines have been replaced? Were they crimped on by a shop? or just a hose onto the banjo and a hose clamp?
Unsure what you mean about the turbo and the PTO cable setup but would be getting that back to stock, will be hard to start if it is running lean with to much air.
Bypass the factory water separator as they are known to suck air through them.
If it has super glow rip that out, rewire the factory relay and install 12v glow plugs.
****** check the metal return fuel line from injectors to transfer pump, if the bolt retaining this pipe isnt removed when changing the transfer pump it can bend and crack the pipe then suck air through the return side ******
Never had a 3B that wont start even one sitting out in the weather for 10+ years fired 2nd kick.
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- Thread starter
- #78
I would like to spill time it. Do I need to fashion a flare nut with a "goose neck" pipe? I don't have any extra injector pipes sitting around that I can cannibalize. I think the fitting is 12x1.5mm inverted flare. Any idea where I could source that and a short segment of pipe?
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- #79
I agree I need to spill time it. My FSM has the rotary pump only, not sure about my inline one.
I have a Bosch on now, though I don't love them
One fuel line is original (filter to IP), one is crimped/made by a shop
The EDIC was toast so I have a PTO cable to kill the engine. I am able to try adjusting it in different positions. It won't start with the turbo disconnected either.
I have an aftermarket water separator. Ordered a replacement and will be installing that
Already did the Wilson switch. GPs are 10.5v, which is what I believe is correct for 12v 3Bs
Got a new (used) hard return line and installed it after rebuilding the transfer pump
You don’t really “need” that spare piece. I have one and I have timed with it and without it. The key is just getting the fuel level to the top/even of that fitting or just the pump.
Here’s from mine when I did it.
As for special tools, all you need is a piece of injection pipe about 50mm in total length. I got mine from a friend who is a retired John Deere mechanic. He had spare lines they used for parts and allowed me to cut the end off of one.
Mount it on the #1 injector spot on the Injection Pump.
Make sure you are at TDC on the compression stroke. You can check this feeling the rocker arms. On TDC on compression, the rockers on cylinder 1 are loose, and 4 should be tight. If not, rotate 360° and you should be good to go.
According to the manual, you then need to rotate the crank "back and forth" a little around TDC until you see fuel start coming out. Then slowly crank counterclockwise to get before the timing marks.
Next you slowly crank it clockwise while staring at the injector pipe. As soon as the fuel level comes up, stop moving the crank. Look at the crank pulley and see where the mark on the pulley is in relation to the pointer on the timing case.
Depending if the crank pulley mark is before or after the point is how much you are advanced or retarded on the timing. To fix that you loosen the 3 IP bolts, the nut on the injection pump stay, and loosen the injection lines and bolts holding the fuel filter. Then rotate the injection pump towards the pump to advance, away to retard.
Repeat the test to get on the 14btdc that the 3B needs STOCK.