3B won't start, or even fire

[Diesel Wannabe]

You don’t really “need” that spare piece. I have one and I have timed with it and without it. The key is just getting the fuel level to the top/even of that fitting or just the pump.

Here’s from mine when I did it.

As for special tools, all you need is a piece of injection pipe about 50mm in total length. I got mine from a friend who is a retired John Deere mechanic. He had spare lines they used for parts and allowed me to cut the end off of one.

Mount it on the #1 injector spot on the Injection Pump.

Make sure you are at TDC on the compression stroke. You can check this feeling the rocker arms. On TDC on compression, the rockers on cylinder 1 are loose, and 4 should be tight. If not, rotate 360° and you should be good to go.

According to the manual, you then need to rotate the crank "back and forth" a little around TDC until you see fuel start coming out. Then slowly crank counterclockwise to get before the timing marks.
Next you slowly crank it clockwise while staring at the injector pipe. As soon as the fuel level comes up, stop moving the crank. Look at the crank pulley and see where the mark on the pulley is in relation to the pointer on the timing case.
Depending if the crank pulley mark is before or after the point is how much you are advanced or retarded on the timing. To fix that you loosen the 3 IP bolts, the nut on the injection pump stay, and loosen the injection lines and bolts holding the fuel filter. Then rotate the injection pump towards the pump to advance, away to retard.

Repeat the test to get on the 14btdc that the 3B needs STOCK.

So I still have to find the 12x1.5mm female flare nut and a short section of pipe - don't have any friends who are tractor repairment

 

[FJBen]

So I still have to find the 12x1.5mm female flare nut and a short section of pipe - don't have any friends who are tractor repairment

No you don’t need that. That’s just the pictures from when I first did it and had that pipe.

The 2nd time I did it without the pipe. All you are looking for is the fuel moving. If you get it even with the top (current line off) you can just do that. Just be careful and clean not to get gunk in it

When you take the line off, just leave it open, follow the process and you’ll be fine and then know it’s timed correctly.

 

[FJBen]

Here’s what the process looks like (mostly)

Once fuel is level, slowly turn crank and watch for fuel movement. Then check timing mark. Rotate pump towards or away to adjust.

 

[dirtyham]

No you don’t need that. That’s just the pictures from when I first did it and had that pipe.

The 2nd time I did it without the pipe. All you are looking for is the fuel moving. If you get it even with the top (current line off) you can just do that. Just be careful and clean not to get gunk in it

When you take the line off, just leave it open, follow the process and you’ll be fine and then know it’s timed correctly.

View attachment 4131472

thats a sexy looking pump

 

[dirtyham]

The fsm with the inline pump specs should be in the manuals on here, if you cant find it let me know will take some pics.
In regards to the edic motor when you go to start the car it pulls the IP into the overfuel position to give it maximum fuel to help start, its a different positin to the normal max fuel setting.

 

[Diesel Wannabe]

The fsm with the inline pump specs should be in the manuals on here, if you cant find it let me know will take some pics.
In regards to the edic motor when you go to start the car it pulls the IP into the overfuel position to give it maximum fuel to help start, its a different positin to the normal max fuel setting.

It's not in my paper FSM unfortunately. I did find it in a scanned (poorly) engine manual that I have in a PDF. Seems that most, if not all, of the manual links in the Diesel Tech thread are broken. Unfortunate.

 

[Diesel Wannabe]

I did the spill test tonight - looks like #1 is spilling quite a few degrees early. I'll be ordering a new O-ring and pulling the IP to make sure the alignment marks are lined up properly. I'll report back.

 

[Diesel42]

Excellent responses to the inquiry. Following!

 

[FJBen]

I did the spill test tonight - looks like #1 is spilling quite a few degrees early. I'll be ordering a new O-ring and pulling the IP to make sure the alignment marks are lined up properly. I'll report back.

Unless it’s really far off, you should be able to loosen and rotate it to the correct time.

 

[Diesel Wannabe]

Unless it’s really far off, you should be able to loosen and rotate it to the correct time.

Here's where #1 spills. That's the 14.5 degree mark on the left.

 

[FJBen]

Here's where #1 spills. That's the 14.5 degree mark on the left.

View attachment 4132919

thats pretty far advanced, is the engine really loud/clacky?

You confirmed you were at TDC on #1?

When you removed the pump, did you have the front cover off or did you take off the pump with cover on.

My question is during install, I wonder if the automatic timer slipped or you twisted it? That would cause some off timing. (100% confirm it happened to me. I was just replacing front timing seal gasket. I however did the opposite, pulled gear off pump and putting back on, I didn’t account for the movement of the automatic timer and thus it was out of time.

I don’t know if you can run into that same issue if you remove the pump from the back…it feels like it should only go on the key way one way…

 

[Diesel Wannabe]

thats pretty far advanced, is the engine really loud/clacky?

You confirmed you were at TDC on #1?

When you removed the pump, did you have the front cover off or did you take off the pump with cover on.

My question is during install, I wonder if the automatic timer slipped or you twisted it? That would cause some off timing. (100% confirm it happened to me. I was just replacing front timing seal gasket. I however did the opposite, pulled gear off pump and putting back on, I didn’t account for the movement of the automatic timer and thus it was out of time.

I don’t know if you can run into that same issue if you remove the pump from the back…it feels like it should only go on the key way one way…

The pump was removed whole/intact. We changed the governor diaphragm after removal. The front cover was never removed. I thought the inline pumps had alignment marks on the gear while the rotary ones were keyed to only go on one way. I'll know soon.

 

[FJBen]

The pump was removed whole/intact. We changed the governor diaphragm after removal. The front cover was never removed. I thought the inline pumps had alignment marks on the gear while the rotary ones were keyed to only go on one way. I'll know soon.

Yes, I believe the gear is “keyed” and can only go on one way.

However the only thing I’m unsure of is that can you spin it due to the automatic timer when installing it. I for sure know you can spin it incorrectly well installing the gear onto the pump. So if it’s not fully seated, you absolutely move the automatic timer and make it out of time.

It’s “spring loaded” and is just a flywheel setup that advances timing as the rpm’s go up.
3B engine at 2800RPM should have 7.6 - 9.6 crankshaft degrees of advance. So if that timer got spun during install, you could be at 15 to 23 degrees of timing.


I would pull the pump again, try to put it back in and spill time again. If it’s still off, you are going to have pull the front cover off and align all the gears to know that it’s timed correctly.

 

[Diesel Wannabe]

Well, I finally saw some real progress yesterday. I learned 2 things:

1. The 3B inline IP shaft is not keyed and has alignment marks
2. My IP was installed one tooth off (advanced). Since there are only 6 teeth, that's 60 degrees!

I R&R'd the IP yesterday and got the IP aligned properly. I bled the fuel system and it started on the first crank. It died after 3 seconds or so and I had to crank it for 10-15 seconds before it started again. Idled rough for a few minutes (assume that air was getting bleed from the system) and then settled down. I didn't drive it much as it was 8:45 at night, rain was turning to storms and we lost power. I'll run it through its paces over the next few days but GSMTR is looking like it's going to happen!

Thanks to all in this thread for you input. The spill test was new to me and was the basis for pulling the IP - great insight and help @FJBen - THANKS!

 

[FJBen]

Well, I finally saw some real progress yesterday. I learned 2 things:

1. The 3B inline IP shaft is not keyed and has alignment marks
2. My IP was installed one tooth off (advanced). Since there are only 6 teeth, that's 60 degrees!

I R&R'd the IP yesterday and got the IP aligned properly. I bled the fuel system and it started on the first crank. It died after 3 seconds or so and I had to crank it for 10-15 seconds before it started again. Idled rough for a few minutes (assume that air was getting bleed from the system) and then settled down. I didn't drive it much as it was 8:45 at night, rain was turning to storms and we lost power. I'll run it through its paces over the next few days but GSMTR is looking like it's going to happen!

Thanks to all in this thread for you input. The spill test was new to me and was the basis for pulling the IP - great insight and help @FJBen - THANKS!

Awesome! That’s a great feeling when you figure it out. It’s amazing it could run on so much advance.

Ah the 13bt has at least double the splines and it’s keyed so it can only go on 1 way. I’m not sure after remembering it has to go on studs that you can rotate that automatic timer installing on the back side. Makes sense.

Yeah will be waiting to hear back on how it does.

 

[duncanrm]

I did have the IP off about 18 months ago to change the diaphragm. Does this sound like an IP timing issue? I'm thinking that it may be retarded - hard starts and white smoke. I should rotate it towards the engine a bit to advance the injection timing, correct? Thoughts?

It ran fine with timing issues for 18 months??

 

[FJBen]

It ran fine with timing issues for 18 months??

On an earlier post he stated this:

I had the IP out a couple of years ago, but have driven it lots of times since then. I did not remove the IP to rebuild the lift pump

Now I remember reading that for every degree of pump timing is two degree of crank rotation. So if my math is remotely in the ballpark, at 60 degrees (one tooth off) it would be at 30 Btdc.

So that picture of his timing mark should be about equal distance from the tdc mark, as where his pointer is at now during injection.

I do know the automatic timer at 3000rpm advances 14 degrees. so his 3B idling is running/times like it’s supposed to be at 3000rpm. Which again is all wrong for a turbo 3b indirect.

There is an excellent post on here about shimming out the automatic timer to quit adding timing to resolve this issue.

 

[Diesel Wannabe]

It ran fine with timing issues for 18 months??

It ran poorly (lack of power, lots of white smoke) and was very hard to start. I spent a lot of time trying to track down fuel/mixture issues... I also had an unrelated air leak into the fuel system (still battling that). With the IP properly aligned the cruiser starts right up and runs really well. Overnight there is enough air leak that the cruiser starts and runs until it consumes the fuel in the IP/lines then dies. I did replace the water separator last week, no change. That's on top of the lift pump and am again running the Bosch hand pump. Frustrating but hopefully close.