1fz-fe EGR disable ?

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Even if it is true that the ECU does not set the CEL with no flow, it doesn't mean that the ECU does not use the temperature information to monitor EGR flow. Why would they go to the trouble of installing a temperature sensor if they aren't going to use the information?

The EGR temp sensor is used to determine whether the EGR system is flowing or not based on the temp. But it's a very very very high level look into the system.

Think of it this way....it'd be like if the ECU was determining fuel flow based only on coolant temp sensors (no MAF, no O2 sensors, no knock sensors, etc). Now the ECU could actually get a fairly decent idea of how much fuel to dump based on operating conditions (speed, RPM, etc) and the engine coolant temp. If it goes up your running too lean and need to dump more fuel, if it goes down too much you need to lean it out some.

But that's an extremely wide range. Much of the time the engine would be running too lean, but the engine coolant would be just fine. Or it would be dumping fuel, but the engine coolant would be fine.

No one would design a system that way because much of the time that your sole input (coolant temp) was registering fine, the amount of fuel being dumped into the engine would not be correct. There would be no way of adjusting for the injectors being plugged, or the fuel rail leaking, or a bad pump, or a blocked filter, or any of a dozen other factors.

The EGR system is somewhat similar to that example as the amount of visibility that the ECU has into the system is incredibly simple. Often when there is no flow (or too much flow) the ECU thinks that everything is just dandy with the EGR system. That's the huge gaping hole in your theory that the ECU adjusts fuel based on the EGR system, it'd be like adjusting fuel based on the coolant temp without having the O2 sensors, MAF, knock sensors, etc.


My understanding is that they use this information to adjust the air flow mix, ignition timing and what the O2 sensors expect to see to optimize the conditions to reduce combustion temperatures (and NOx) and to improve fuel efficiency. It is easy to understand that if the ECU has bad information about the EGR flow, that the conditions might result in increased combustion temperatures and detonation. If it has good information about the lack of flow, it can increase the fuel delivery to keep the mixture within the stoichiometric range and the combusiton temperatures in a reasonable range and back off the timing to prevent preignition. This would seem to be counter productive because why would someone go to the trouble of disabling the EGR to get worse fuel economy?

The O2 sensors are completely seperate, and if they don't like what they see they will throw their own code (or the ECU will adapt accordingly), so they don't really apply here.

In many modern engines (I'd say 2000+) what you say is true, but not in older engines. The 60 series had an EGR setup, but if of course did no such thing. Even the early 1FZ's clearly did no such thing as Mr. T set them up to be bypassed from the factory (a non-Cali spec version).

As far as fuel mileage goes, I've said time and time again that there is no point in doing the EGR disable mod to gain fuel mileage. I have not seen one tiny change in my fuel mileage since I've done the mod (in any of the various configurations I've had), and at most people are reporting a 1 to 2 MPG difference, which is easily attributable to other factors (ambient temp, driving habits, traffic, etc, etc, etc). Unlike some rigs where removing the EGR system has made a significant difference (IIRC it does of the 3FE), this does not apply for the 1FZ.

On the opposite side you don't get any worse fuel mileage either.

Which is one of the strongest points to the idea that the EGR system simply doesn't do much on the 1FZ. If it were working as you suggested and leaning out the fuel mixture, then you'd see an MPG loss if you disabled it but left the CEL on. You don't.


What is up with the head gasket and the EGR? This isn't obvious.

It isn't obvious, and the connection between them is corrollation not causation.

There's something called gasket creep which can be caused by an engine running too cool, Bear80 did some research on that and found that might have something to do with the HG failing on the 80's.

Further, most of the HG failures seem to happen more on 1FZ's with the EGR system than without. Now there could be a lot of reasons for that, such as N/A spec trucks simply reporting it more, basically skewing the sample. That's also just the impression I've gotten from reading the various HG threads, which again could simply be skewed. No detailed studies on that. ;)

Anyway, the connection between the EGR system and the HG is tenuous at best, and not really a good reason for doing the mod. For me there are two primary reasons:

1) Eliminate the carbon that goes into the engine.
2) Eliminate the risk to the wiring harness.

There are other potential benefits and side effects, but none that have been as well documented and are as solid as those two. Those alone are a good enough reason for me, but you'll have to decide if that's good enough for you or not.

Here's one of the best pictures I've seen of the biggest reason to do this (stolen from LT's trubo build thread):

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Even if you had both a blower and disabled the EGR system I'd say that you are at no more risk than just one or the other, as they operate at different points in time (basically mutually exclusive).

I fall into this category, blower+EGR presumably disabled and the resistor trick.

I pulled a P0401 code last summer so I blocked off the 2 hoses between the throttle body and the ERG system with BB's. I also added a resistor. After I reset the code vie Scangauge, things were hunky dory. Never seemed to skip a beat.

However, this past December on one of our first 15 degree days, I pulled a P0402 code within a minute or so after start up on my way home one evening. I reset the code, and drove carefully home and it hasn't returned since. It scared me since IIRC P0402 is an excessive flow code, but I would think if I was consistently having excessive flow, that the P0402 would rear its ugly head multiple times by now.

I guess we'll wait and see what happens. I wish I had more time to read all of this and the 7 or so pages of your last thread in greater detail.

I've read most of them and from what I understand is that there might be a consensus that the resistor mod could be detrimental, but your method appears to be safe. But if Bear80 has been running a resistor for 5 or so years, I might have nothing to worry about.
 
I pulled a P0401 code last summer so I blocked off the 2 hoses between the throttle body and the ERG system with BB's. I also added a resistor. After I reset the code vie Scangauge, things were hunky dory. Never seemed to skip a beat.

However, this past December on one of our first 15 degree days, I pulled a P0402 code within a minute or so after start up on my way home one evening. I reset the code, and drove carefully home and it hasn't returned since. It scared me since IIRC P0402 is an excessive flow code, but I would think if I was consistently having excessive flow, that the P0402 would rear its ugly head multiple times by now.

What resistor did you put in? If it's the 1k resistor then it could be with the ambient temp low enough the EGR range fell outside of what the 1k resistor would give.

If you bump it up to somewhere around a 12k resistor you wouldn't have that problem.

It's similar to the reasoning behind why I didn't pull a code for nearly 1k miles. In 80+ degree weather the ambient temp is so high that it puts the range for the EGR system into the 300+ easily, so running without a resistor would be on the high end of the OK range but still fall inside it.

Once the temp dropped to the 40's and 50's I started getting the P0402 intermittently, because the acceptable EGR range would have dropped to around 300ish for the max.

I'd estimate (and it's just a semi-WAG based on rough numbers) that the 1k resistor would put you somewhere around 330* or so, which with ambient temps in the teens could very well throw a P0402 code.

BTW if you actually had excessive flow you should notice it with a rough stumbling idle and even misfires (if it was bad enough). You would also lose top end power as the exhaust flow would rob you of a significant amount of HP.
 
I don't have much to add except that I agree with Ebag. This guy knows his s*** and everything he has said has made perfect sense to me. Carry on.:flipoff2:

D
 
Anyway, the connection between the EGR system and the HG is tenuous at best, and not really a good reason for doing the mod. For me there are two primary reasons:

1) Eliminate the carbon that goes into the engine.
2) Eliminate the risk to the wiring harness.

There are other potential benefits and side effects, but none that have been as well documented and are as solid as those two. Those alone are a good enough reason for me, but you'll have to decide if that's good enough for you or not.

Here's one of the best pictures I've seen of the biggest reason to do this (stolen from LT's trubo build thread):

attachment.php

I wonder if ceramic coating the EGR pipe would protect the wiring harness from the heat. Although the question then becomes what will happen to the engine with hotter EGR gases being injected?

Thanks again to Ebag et al for the healthy and civil debate. I know I've learned more about engines and their operation from this discussion. (I'm keeping my EGR though, gotta get my money's worth out of that new VSV!) :cheers:
 
I wonder if ceramic coating the EGR pipe would protect the wiring harness from the heat. Although the question then becomes what will happen to the engine with hotter EGR gases being injected?

Ceramic coating is probably not worth the hassle and expense, but that'd drastically reduce temps.

My guess is that you'd be significantly increasing the temps seen by the temp sensor. I doubt it'd put you out of the EGR range, but you'd be on the high end and it's very possible you'd throw a P0402 occasionally.

Then again it might just compensate for all the carbon buildup in it. :meh:


It gets seriously hot though. After all that's heat shielding that it burned through in the pic above. I'd imagine a nice side effect to disabling it is probably reducing engine bay temps a bit. :hhmm:

The pipe leads to the back of the head where it recircs exhaust gases. That pipe itself can get up to 1000 degrees during operation.
 
Hmmm..lots of interesting speculation and educated guesses, but nobody can help think of a way to get data? Let me cut/paste this from earlier and I hope someone will have something helpful to contribute to this part of the discussion. Whomever you guess is "right" or "wrong" is irrelevant- I have no definitive conclusion on whether the EGR temp sensor ties in to leaning the fuel mixture on the 1fz- that's what I'm trying to find out! This is about exploring the potential pros and cons of a particular mod. So I'd appreciate some ideas to gather some definitive data on this.

Can you guys think of any way to test if the ECU is leaning out the mixture on a '95-97 EGR-modded truck (EGR blocked, EGR temp sensor bypassed with resistor)? I have a Scangauge II. I'm thinking perhaps I can compare LTFT (long term fuel trim) and Ignition Timing numbers (to look for a lean condition) between 2 cases (Note: I'm still reading up on all this stuff, so someone please correct me if I have the wrong idea here):

Case #1. EGR blocked, temp sensor connected, P0401 CEL on
Case #2. EGR blocked, temp sensor bypassed by 10K resistor, no CEL

Does anyone have any suggestions on a better/different way to check for a lean condition? It would be best if I could log/plot this data. Is the Scangauge capable of doing this?
 
Sure. The upstream O2 sensor should be able to tell if one case is richer than the other. To quantify this in terms air fuel stoichiometry, you would need some standard curve or table to convert the signal into O2 concentration.
 
Got 5 little resisters at Radio Shack today for 0.97 cents. Looking forward to turning off that %$^&* light. Thanks again X2, Ebag...

DougM
 
What resistor did you put in? If it's the 1k resistor then it could be with the ambient temp low enough the EGR range fell outside of what the 1k resistor would give.

If you bump it up to somewhere around a 12k resistor you wouldn't have that problem.

It's similar to the reasoning behind why I didn't pull a code for nearly 1k miles. In 80+ degree weather the ambient temp is so high that it puts the range for the EGR system into the 300+ easily, so running without a resistor would be on the high end of the OK range but still fall inside it.

Once the temp dropped to the 40's and 50's I started getting the P0402 intermittently, because the acceptable EGR range would have dropped to around 300ish for the max.

I'd estimate (and it's just a semi-WAG based on rough numbers) that the 1k resistor would put you somewhere around 330* or so, which with ambient temps in the teens could very well throw a P0402 code.

BTW if you actually had excessive flow you should notice it with a rough stumbling idle and even misfires (if it was bad enough). You would also lose top end power as the exhaust flow would rob you of a significant amount of HP.


Doing a little EGR fiddling tonight and I remembered this thread.

I used a 3.9K (orange, white, red, gold) resistor. I haven't had any more problems with the P0402 since the first time. I definitely didn't notice any engine stumbling or loss of power when I had the brief P0402 so it sounds like your reasoning is correct.

I'm about to fully disable/remove all the EGR components this week. I have everything off, now I just need to make a block off plate for the intake plenum and find some sort of round cap for the pipe.
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Fun thread

I have to say that the more I know about EGR systems and specifically Toyota's system that I believe that Pinhead & alaskscruiser et. al. are on the correct side of the argument.

Carry on
 
Fun thread

I have to say that the more I know about EGR systems and specifically Toyota's system that I believe that Pinhead & alaskscruiser et. al. are on the correct side of the argument.

Carry on

et. al.

are you a Lawyer???

My EGR code is being thrown right now, im debating on whether to delete or refurbish.... hmm.. any more pics of the block off process?

Also, is there a part number for the OEM temp sensor jumper for OBD1 Trucks?
 
If you're throwing a code the most likely cause is a failed VSV for EGR.

Pick up some 3.5 mm vac lines from CDan or your VW dealer for good measure and a new VSV from CDan.

You can test for VSV failure but your test must include while driving at operating temp. However the VSV is the most likely cause of ERG failure (CEL).

The result of EGR failure is pre-detonation (pinging). EGR effects the air/fuel mixture when it's supposed to.

If you disable look to pick up a similar year non-US ECU or learn to live with "mysterious" pinging issues.

Pre-detonation can slowly destroy an engine.
 
Very interesting read. Some comments/notes to throw in the mix.

My '93 is the 'federal' model without the temp sensor. I've had the EGR disabled (vacuum lines blocked) ever since I rebuilt a junk yard motor 2 years (5k miles) ago.

1) I melted my catalytic converter. Not sure if it was a heavy throttle snow wheelin trip or normal driving. Completely coincidental with no evidence to blame EGR disable, but combustion temperatures are proportional to EGT and reliable references site EGR reducing combustion temps. Interesting...

2) When I did my engine swap/rebuild I wrapped the harness with heat shield tape because the stock wrap was brittle. link

While I'm no engine expert, I am a Mechanical Engineer. Based on what I've read in this thread, the links in this thread, and a little internet searching I'll be re-engaging my EGR and even verifying functionality. The potential benefits of EGR disabling are completely outweighed by the potential consequences.
 
Very interesting read. Some comments/notes to throw in the mix.

My '93 is the 'federal' model without the temp sensor. I've had the EGR disabled (vacuum lines blocked) ever since I rebuilt a junk yard motor 2 years (5k miles) ago.

1) I melted my catalytic converter. Not sure if it was a heavy throttle snow wheelin trip or normal driving. Completely coincidental with no evidence to blame EGR disable, but combustion temperatures are proportional to EGT and reliable references site EGR reducing combustion temps. Interesting...

2) When I did my engine swap/rebuild I wrapped the harness with heat shield tape because the stock wrap was brittle. link

While I'm no engine expert, I am a Mechanical Engineer. Based on what I've read in this thread, the links in this thread, and a little internet searching I'll be re-engaging my EGR and even verifying functionality. The potential benefits of EGR disabling are completely outweighed by the potential consequences.

i think your problem lies elsewhere and i'd be curious if you find it. this is a timely post for me as i am trying to figure out a similar issue.

on my federal 93 that i have owned for ten years the floor pan on the passenger side and tranny hump have always gotten hot on long drives. i can't leave a cool drink in the cup holder at the front of the console. it also cooked a set of refurbished cats within a year of install so that i could not get it through emissions testing.

but it has a fully functional totally refurbished egr system where i have replaced every part including the vacuum lines and completely cleaned the plenum!

otoh, my new to me 94 has an egr code that i haven't bothered fixing yet. the floor plan does not get hot at all.
 
Also, is there a part number for the OEM temp sensor jumper for OBD1 Trucks?

Part number won't help you. I bought the last two (was testing to see if it would work on OBD-II trucks, it won't) and was told Toyota wasn't making any more.

But if you dig around you can find the P/N, I did post it up.

The result of EGR failure is pre-detonation (pinging). EGR effects the air/fuel mixture when it's supposed to.

If you disable look to pick up a similar year non-US ECU or learn to live with "mysterious" pinging issues.

Pre-detonation can slowly destroy an engine.

That's great in theory but unlikely in reality.

EGR is only supposed to be enabled in low load situations. In high load situations, it's supposed to be off. High load situations is where you are most likely to see pinging, how often do you hear of cases of a truck pinging when cruising on the freeway but not when pulling a steep grade with your pedal to the floor? :hhmm:

Now if the EGR system failed open, then it would be enabled all the time and could cause pinging in high load situations. But that's a relatively uncommon failure, typically it fails because it's clogged up and is closed all the time (temp sensor reads temps too low).

1) I melted my catalytic converter. Not sure if it was a heavy throttle snow wheelin trip or normal driving. Completely coincidental with no evidence to blame EGR disable, but combustion temperatures are proportional to EGT and reliable references site EGR reducing combustion temps. Interesting...

As I just mentioned, the EGR system only operates at low loads and high speeds, when combustion temps would be low and cooling at the max. Your cat melting almost certainly has nothing to do with the EGR system.

i think your problem lies elsewhere and i'd be curious if you find it. this is a timely post for me as i am trying to figure out a similar issue.

on my federal 93 that i have owned for ten years the floor pan on the passenger side and tranny hump have always gotten hot on long drives. i can't leave a cool drink in the cup holder at the front of the console. it also cooked a set of refurbished cats within a year of install so that i could not get it through emissions testing.

but it has a fully functional totally refurbished egr system where i have replaced every part including the vacuum lines and completely cleaned the plenum!

otoh, my new to me 94 has an egr code that i haven't bothered fixing yet. the floor plan does not get hot at all.

The floor heating up or cats melting doesn't really have anything to do with the EGR system.

Most common cause of cats melting or excessive floor heat is the cat being plugged up. I would pull the cat and visually examine to see if it's clear. If you're missing heat shielding (removed, fallen off, or rusted away) that makes a huge difference as well.
 
The floor heating up or cats melting doesn't really have anything to do with the EGR system.

that's what i said

semlin said:
Most common cause of cats melting or excessive floor heat is the cat being plugged up. I would pull the cat and visually examine to see if it's clear. If you're missing heat shielding (removed, fallen off, or rusted away) that makes a huge difference as well.

it has continued through three different cats, and the ones replaced were not blocked. the cat heat shields have been replaced. it is egt, rear heater lines or transmission, i do not know which. i had learned to live with it until i got the 94and realized it is not normal.
 
Are you running temp gauges in both to monitor engine temps?

That might tell you a lot. If the 93 is simply running hotter that would explain it.
 
I have no carpet and notice the hot trans hump as well. I've always thought it was the transmission due to both driver and passenger side being warm.

I'll be removing the rear heater soon.

High EGT is not always associated with high load situations. Low load lean operation will cause a great amount of heat.
 
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