1997 FZJ80 Rehabilitation

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This is excellent information, thanks! I just skimmed both of those threads and read the posts you mentioned.

Sounds like the rear axle seal is only a matter of time in terms of oil getting through. I wonder if the "uphill" bearings would get overheated in prolonged off-camber driving. I guess the likelihood of that is probably low and if the cruiser was tilted like that for a while you'd probably be doing something with low speeds like a recovery.

In regard to the trunion bearings, I hadn't thought of them affecting caster and camber but now that I read that it seems obvious given their job is to properly align the front knuckles.

Summary: You have convinced me to open and service the knuckles. Haven't decided about the rear axle seals yet. Curse my expensive sense of paranoia.
The rear "uphill" axle bearings will not starve of oil because that area is flooded with oil. Once the oil is in there, it cannot escape except through a failed hub seal.

This is exactly how the Dana and GM 3/4T and 1T axles are designed. They only run gear oil in the bearings.

This is why you also must make sure that whatever gear oil and wheel bearing greases you use are "compatible". Some synthetic greases are not compatible with some oils and everything will turn clumpy and look like brown cottage cheese and lubrication doesn't happen.

Tools R Us and I had a number of conversations about the rear inner axle seals and the gear oil and mixing. It's OK for the lubes to mix, it's just that the grease loses and it becomes liquid as it gets diluted from the gear oil. You don't have to worry about overheating or anything, they can definitely take what's there. You do need to occasionally check you gear oil levels for this reason. The fronts will also mix, but it becomes obvious much more quickly due to the steering knuckle balls and the seal design. The gear oil mixes, then leaks out the knuckle seals showing you have "birf soup".

I chose to leave in my inner axle on the rear and allow them to mix as it happens because the inner seal isn't much of a seal.
 
The rear "uphill" axle bearings will not starve of oil because that area is flooded with oil. Once the oil is in there, it cannot escape except through a failed hub seal.

This is exactly how the Dana and GM 3/4T and 1T axles are designed. They only run gear oil in the bearings.

This is why you also must make sure that whatever gear oil and wheel bearing greases you use are "compatible". Some synthetic greases are not compatible with some oils and everything will turn clumpy and look like brown cottage cheese and lubrication doesn't happen.

Tools R Us and I had a number of conversations about the rear inner axle seals and the gear oil and mixing. It's OK for the lubes to mix, it's just that the grease loses and it becomes liquid as it gets diluted from the gear oil. You don't have to worry about overheating or anything, they can definitely take what's there. You do need to occasionally check you gear oil levels for this reason. The fronts will also mix, but it becomes obvious much more quickly due to the steering knuckle balls and the seal design. The gear oil mixes, then leaks out the knuckle seals showing you have "birf soup".

I chose to leave in my inner axle on the rear and allow them to mix as it happens because the inner seal isn't much of a seal.
I think I already have axle seals so I will probably go ahead and install them. Good info for next time though as I might just leave them out.
 
Ok so after receiving some good advice on Mud, particularly in this thread, I've decided to do the knuckle service first. I'll swap in the new rotors while I'm there. I need to double check but I think I have a slow gear oil leak at the 3rd member. I can't remember if I have a new gasket or not. If I do, is it worth popping the 3rd member out since I will be removing the axle shafts for the knuckle service anyway? My thought was yes but I've never done this before.
 
Also, I'm open to suggested parts cleaning methods for the knuckle and axle components. I've read a few threads on this a current contenders are as follows:
1.) Simple Green
2.) Gas/diesel
3.) Mineral spirits

All of which would be put in 5 gal buckets to soak the birfs and other parts and then scrubbed with a wire brush and/or wiped off depending upon the surface.

I like the idea of using Simple Green only because it's biodegradable and I could probably just toss the remnants in the garbage. Diesel or gas I'm sure would work but there's the safety aspect and having to recycle the leftovers when done. Thoughts?
 
Side note: I realized this morning that, despite having the knuckle kits and the tools I need, I do NOT have the snap rings for the inner axle/birf joints. I ordered two from the local dealership and should have them in the AM. Hoping to knock this job out tomorrow.

I was thinking of leaving the birfs and axles attached since I'm replacing neither but I read that they can be hard to clean without separation and if you leave solvent in the birf anywhere that's obviously not good for the new grease...so snap rings it is. Although getting them apart and then back together might be interesting without a vise. :hmm:
 
Resealing the 3rd while you have the axle shafts out, if it's leaking and if you have the materials on hand, is a good idea in my opinion. Your only additional steps are to remove the driveshaft from the third, possibly disconnect locker bits and then unbolt the 3rd so it's not much more work.

Regarding cleaning there are a number of ways to clean your birfs/axles up. For some of the reasons you mention and largely out of convenience (since I don't have a proper parts washer right now) I go for more of a "dry cleaning" approach which I describe below.

Get a few cardboard boxes, a few rolls of paper towels and one can of brake clean to do the cleaning work. Put one shallow box under the hub once the tire is off and the jackstand/whatever is in place. This will catch a lot of dirt/debris/etc. as you work and keep the ground a lot cleaner. Put the second larger box nearby and use it as a garbage can to catch the grease slimed paper towels as you are done with them. Then, use papertowels over your hand to scoop out grease, wipe off grease, etc. etc. You can pretty much do the whole job this way and get the knuckles and birfs pretty clean. Unless there's grit or hardened crust in the knuckle it should wipe out pretty clean and I wouldn't worry too much about the grease residue, it shouldn't hurt anything and shouldn't need solvent cleaning. For crust/sludge I'll typically try to scrape with a plastic scraper if needed and then brush with the most gentle brush that will work followed by another wipe. If you follow this approach you don't really need a solvent bath at any point. I will typically have a can of brake clean on hand to spray a few spots with and then to carefully clean the rotor with when it all goes back together but I rarely use very much of it on a knuckle job. Simple green is also nice, esp. for the exterior of the knuckle/hub/axle before you start taking things too far apart. A pre clean like this can reduce the risk of grit falling into your knuckle...

I also setup a hand-washing station nearby so that I can wash my hands a few times through the process and avoid contaminating my clothes/truck with grease. Rubber gloves are a good idea at a few stages of the job but I don't wear them the whole time. Similarly a little magnetic tray is handy for this job as you can put your flange nuts/etc. on it as you proceed and keep the tray on top of the spring or on the steering arm out of the way.

I'm not sure that I'd remove the axles from the birfs unless you need to or want to swap them side to side. It makes it easier to clean and inspect the birfs if they are out but if they aren't clicking and you don't have new ones on hand to install anyway then I'd just clean inspect with the shafts on and put them back together. If you need/want to remove them I've found that a length of reinforced pvc pipe just a bit larger than the axle shaft in length and diameter works well. You put the axle in there and hammer away (swing both axle/birf and pipe together) against a softish surface that won't damage the shaft end when the axle pops out (piece of wood). Again though, I'd skip all of this unless necessary and if the birfs aren't dirty in a bad way (grit, crust) then I'd not worry about getting every bit of grease off, but that's me. Get them pretty clean, cram some moly grease in, fill the knuckle and go is what I do :)
 
Resealing the 3rd while you have the axle shafts out, if it's leaking and if you have the materials on hand, is a good idea in my opinion. Your only additional steps are to remove the driveshaft from the third, possibly disconnect locker bits and then unbolt the 3rd so it's not much more work.

Regarding cleaning there are a number of ways to clean your birfs/axles up. For some of the reasons you mention and largely out of convenience (since I don't have a proper parts washer right now) I go for more of a "dry cleaning" approach which I describe below.

Get a few cardboard boxes, a few rolls of paper towels and one can of brake clean to do the cleaning work. Put one shallow box under the hub once the tire is off and the jackstand/whatever is in place. This will catch a lot of dirt/debris/etc. as you work and keep the ground a lot cleaner. Put the second larger box nearby and use it as a garbage can to catch the grease slimed paper towels as you are done with them. Then, use papertowels over your hand to scoop out grease, wipe off grease, etc. etc. You can pretty much do the whole job this way and get the knuckles and birfs pretty clean. Unless there's grit or hardened crust in the knuckle it should wipe out pretty clean and I wouldn't worry too much about the grease residue, it shouldn't hurt anything and shouldn't need solvent cleaning. For crust/sludge I'll typically try to scrape with a plastic scraper if needed and then brush with the most gentle brush that will work followed by another wipe. If you follow this approach you don't really need a solvent bath at any point. I will typically have a can of brake clean on hand to spray a few spots with and then to carefully clean the rotor with when it all goes back together but I rarely use very much of it on a knuckle job. Simple green is also nice, esp. for the exterior of the knuckle/hub/axle before you start taking things too far apart. A pre clean like this can reduce the risk of grit falling into your knuckle...

I also setup a hand-washing station nearby so that I can wash my hands a few times through the process and avoid contaminating my clothes/truck with grease. Rubber gloves are a good idea at a few stages of the job but I don't wear them the whole time. Similarly a little magnetic tray is handy for this job as you can put your flange nuts/etc. on it as you proceed and keep the tray on top of the spring or on the steering arm out of the way.

I'm not sure that I'd remove the axles from the birfs unless you need to or want to swap them side to side. It makes it easier to clean and inspect the birfs if they are out but if they aren't clicking and you don't have new ones on hand to install anyway then I'd just clean inspect with the shafts on and put them back together. If you need/want to remove them I've found that a length of reinforced pvc pipe just a bit larger than the axle shaft in length and diameter works well. You put the axle in there and hammer away (swing both axle/birf and pipe together) against a softish surface that won't damage the shaft end when the axle pops out (piece of wood). Again though, I'd skip all of this unless necessary and if the birfs aren't dirty in a bad way (grit, crust) then I'd not worry about getting every bit of grease off, but that's me. Get them pretty clean, cram some moly grease in, fill the knuckle and go is what I do :)
Thanks for the perspective. The part about not totally cleaning every last bit of grease off of the birfs and just repacking was my initial thought but I also was thinking "what if I open everything up and there's birf soup?" If the grease is broken down wouldn't it be best to get all of it out before putting fresh in?
 
Side note: I realized this morning that, despite having the knuckle kits and the tools I need, I do NOT have the snap rings for the inner axle/birf joints. I ordered two from the local dealership and should have them in the AM. Hoping to knock this job out tomorrow.

I was thinking of leaving the birfs and axles attached since I'm replacing neither but I read that they can be hard to clean without separation and if you leave solvent in the birf anywhere that's obviously not good for the new grease...so snap rings it is. Although getting them apart and then back together might be interesting without a vise. :hmm:
You don’t need a vise. Separate them in an instant with a length of pipe. Even PVC works. You familiar with that method?
 
Also, I'm open to suggested parts cleaning methods for the knuckle and axle components. I've read a few threads on this a current contenders are as follows:
1.) Simple Green
2.) Gas/diesel
3.) Mineral spirits

All of which would be put in 5 gal buckets to soak the birfs and other parts and then scrubbed with a wire brush and/or wiped off depending upon the surface.

I like the idea of using Simple Green only because it's biodegradable and I could probably just toss the remnants in the garbage. Diesel or gas I'm sure would work but there's the safety aspect and having to recycle the leftovers when done. Thoughts?
I wouldn’t call Simple Green biodegradable once it’s full of oil and grease though.

I don’t see brake clean on your list. Get a case of that. Loosen everything with a good soak in diesel then “pressure wash” it with brake clean.
 
If the grease is broken down wouldn't it be best to get all of it out before putting fresh in?

Yeah, and it makes it easier to do :)

I may have not been clear but I was suggesting getting all of the grease out and wiping all surfaces down in the knuckle as well as on the axle/etc. Basically it will look like clean metal when you are done wiping it out. I'm just not suggesting that you solvent clean all surfaces unless needed due to contamination. Soaking the birfs in solvent for instance will get them totally clean but wiping what you can access off and then filling with fresh grease is a reasonable option and shortcut in my opinion if the old grease isn't contaminated with foreign particles/grit/similar. A little gear oil left in a small pocket of grease inside an un-soaked birf doesn't seem like a problem to me but I can understand if you want to get it all perfect.
 
Separate them in an instant with a length of pipe.

This is what I do and now that I have the hang of it it's pretty quick. The short side axle though can take some serious beating to get out in some cases. Some axles/birfs will be relatively easy others take almost all you've got.
 
So unfortunately some family related stuff has prevented me from starting the knuckle job/rotor replacement. Since I can't physically work on the 80 at the moment I've been thinking more about how I'm going to tackle the brakes once the rotors are on and the knuckles back together. I found the LSPV assembly on Partsouq but it isn't clear to me whether I also need to order the hardware separately. It would seem so. @jpoole I know we talked about this earlier. Did you need to order anything other than the part number for the assembly?
 
@Wrencher93

When I replaced the LSPV on my rig I removed the entire rod assembly as well as the LSPV valve from my truck for cleaning, lubrication and rust treatment before reinstall. I didn't need to replace any parts beyond the valve itself but some of the hardware that mounts the LSPV valve to the frame was a bit rusty. I brushed, rust converted and painted the hardware and rust spots on frame (if there were any, but I don't really recall) before install of the new LSPV. The rubber boots and plastic bushings/etc. were all in good shape on the linkage so I just cleaned and then lightly greased with a silicone grease as I recall.

I could easily see the hardware that mounts the valve to the frame being too rusty to reuse on some rigs. It's a sort of ubolt and given how little rust my truck has the fact that this was rusty on my truck means it's a vulnerable point for rust generally speaking.

If the rubber boots on your linkage aren't torn/damaged then I'd guess you don't need any new linkage parts unless there is visible rust or damage that you need to deal with. You may not even need to disassemble/clean/lube like I did if it moves freely. I would take care with using any lubes on the rubber/plastic as some lubes may cause breakdown or swelling/etc. I think silicone is a good option in this spot, which is why I used it lightly, but there may be better options including no lube at all.

I'd probably pre-game this task with an inspection of the rubber boots as well as a spray of penetrating oil on the valve hardware. I'd go ahead and gently try to loosen the lspv valve hardware and then see if the valve slides up and down as it's supposed to. That will give you a sense of how seized up it is. From there you can plan any additional parts/hardware orders before you do the full swap.

If you don't have them already I'd buy flare wrenches for the removal of the brake lines to lessen risk of stripping them out.
 
@Wrencher93

When I replaced the LSPV on my rig I removed the entire rod assembly as well as the LSPV valve from my truck for cleaning, lubrication and rust treatment before reinstall. I didn't need to replace any parts beyond the valve itself but some of the hardware that mounts the LSPV valve to the frame was a bit rusty. I brushed, rust converted and painted the hardware and rust spots on frame (if there were any, but I don't really recall) before install of the new LSPV. The rubber boots and plastic bushings/etc. were all in good shape on the linkage so I just cleaned and then lightly greased with a silicone grease as I recall.

I could easily see the hardware that mounts the valve to the frame being too rusty to reuse on some rigs. It's a sort of ubolt and given how little rust my truck has the fact that this was rusty on my truck means it's a vulnerable point for rust generally speaking.

If the rubber boots on your linkage aren't torn/damaged then I'd guess you don't need any new linkage parts unless there is visible rust or damage that you need to deal with. You may not even need to disassemble/clean/lube like I did if it moves freely. I would take care with using any lubes on the rubber/plastic as some lubes may cause breakdown or swelling/etc. I think silicone is a good option in this spot, which is why I used it lightly, but there may be better options including no lube at all.

I'd probably pre-game this task with an inspection of the rubber boots as well as a spray of penetrating oil on the valve hardware. I'd go ahead and gently try to loosen the lspv valve hardware and then see if the valve slides up and down as it's supposed to. That will give you a sense of how seized up it is. From there you can plan any additional parts/hardware orders before you do the full swap.

If you don't have them already I'd buy flare wrenches for the removal of the brake lines to lessen risk of stripping them out.
I have flare wrenches but I haven't tried them to see how snug they fit. They're inexpensive ones so hopefully they will work just fine but I don't know yet. Thanks for the advice on the LSPV. I'll have to play with mine a bit and see if it's damaged or seized.
 
Ok so today I took a crack at the infamous front axle/knuckle service job. Got both knuckles torn down and took a look at everything. I still have plenty of cleaning to do (tomorrow's problem) before reassembly.
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I already knew that my rotors had grooves and other damage to the surface. No surprise there and seeing as how the whole point of this knuckle job is just a "while I'm there" for putting the front rotors on - I'm not worried. I did, however find some scarring inside the driver side knuckle. Looks like a birf went boom at some point. Thankfully, the ones I pulled out seemed OK. I'll take a closer look tomorrow.
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