V-8 Swap / PS Pump Issues (2 Viewers)

[Elbert]

Wondered if others with V-8's or saginaw ps conversions have the same problem and if so have found a long term solution.

What I have: 1986 FJ60 with 5.7 Vortec V-8, PS pump is the 4wd version, I have -AN hose plubmed with two fittings in the gear and an external ps cooler in front of the condensor.

I'll post up some pics a little later.

Since the V-8 swap I've had about 3 ps pumps (rebuilt napa, advance, even GM)...

Symptoms: While is 2wd no issues, either on road or off road. Once off road and in 4wd I get PS pump groan / noise after aggressive hill climbs and pro-longed use of 4wd. As long as I'm on a steep hill requiring 4wd for whatever reason the pump is noisy...once I get to a better location and turn off 4 wd the pump will eventually stop making noise.

I'm wondering if the ps fluid is getting too hot and maybe I need a larger cooler? Because the first couple of runs using 4wd I'm ok...then later on in the day as soon as 4wd is engaged...the pump starts the noise routine.

I'll show the current setup of the cooler with some pics as soon as I get a few pics taken. I'm runnign an Earls stacked plate cooler with -an fittings. I did have to use a -an to nipple fitting to get the low pressure hose to fit on the pump resivor hard line low pressue return to resivor.

THe only unique things are the ps cooler and the an to nipple fitting adapter.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EAR-21006ERL

I'm wondering if there is sufficient air flow across the cooler and or the cooler is just not big enough.... other than that I'm really out of ideas... I do have an adapter from -6AN down to roughly a barbed 3/8 hose that feeds the ps pump...this is the only other item that I think might impact the flow but not sure how to solve that if it is the issue. WHne I get the pics up you'll notice a gap between teh cooler and the condenser and i'm not sure how well that the cooler functions and how well the air flow is across it....especially off road when low speed and you are dependent on air flow across the radiator driven by the fan rather than speed of the vehicle as happens on the pavement at speed (air pressure in front of the radiator)...

 

[lcwizard]

Tire size? Locked in front? Rim offset? Stock steering box?
Groaning could be air or excess pressure but usually air. Most of the time if pressure is too high the belt simply slips and the belt squeals. Once it's bled it's hard to get air back in the system unless your
fluid level runs low. I've run reservoirs off vans that have a remote fill tank and used custom 1/2~1 gallon
P/S fluid tanks to stop overheating. The pumps look like this:

More Information for LARES 2535

Typically your return runs from the box to a reservoir then a large feed hose, about 3/4"
connects to the top tube on the pump

 

[doug720]

I have a similar set up with my diesel swap, different type pump, but cooler, an fittings on steering box and SS braid lines. I don't have any issues with mine and I have nearly 10K miles on the swap.

Could the hose you used be too small in diameter? Or, is the pump to small for your tires and use? I don't know the saginaw pumps.

I used #4 teflon lined SS hose and fittings for supply side and 1/2" rubber return lines with Earls cooler and stock Isuzu remote PS reservoir.

Here is how mine looks. Keep in mind too, that my PS pump is gear driven and is around 12-1400 psi.

Doug

 

[lcwizard]

further note: when it starts to groan, pull the dipstick and look for any signs of foaming

 

[jozlod]

As long as I'm on a steep hill requiring 4wd for whatever reason the pump is noisy...once I get to a better location and turn off 4 wd the pump will eventually stop making noise.

The very first thing to check, is if you have enough PS oil in there, but I assume you've already checked that.

The next first thing I'd check, is the height of the reservoir above the pump, the reservoir gravity feeds to the pump, with a large low pressure line, if you're on a steep hill, it's quite possible the angle is such that the reservoir is below the pump. Without seeing your set up I can't be sure.

But the groaning sound you're describing could be the sound of not enough oil in the pump, I've got a slow PS leak, and when it gets too low, I get a groaning noise, you might be getting the same noise just cause the pump isn't getting fed oil.

The fact that it relates to being on a steep hill would be the cause, would have nothing to do with being in 4wd, just that you are in 4wd when you're on a steep hill.

Once the oil reaches the pump, it can go up or down or whatever, cause it's under pressure.

If this is all good, look into the other suggestions in this thread, just thought I'd mention this thought incase it helps.

 

[Elbert]

Tire size? Locked in front? Rim offset? Stock steering box?
Groaning could be air or excess pressure but usually air. Most of the time if pressure is too high the belt simply slips and the belt squeals. Once it's bled it's hard to get air back in the system unless your
fluid level runs low. I've run reservoirs off vans that have a remote fill tank and used custom 1/2~1 gallon
P/S fluid tanks to stop overheating. The pumps look like this:

More Information for LARES 2535

Typically your return runs from the box to a reservoir then a large feed hose, about 3/4"
connects to the top tube on the pump

Locked (aussie locker), 33 inch BFG MT, rebuilt gear WTO but is stock configuration, 3.5 backspace on wheels.

 

[Elbert]

I relaize that being locked on the front gives the pump a real workout and maybe that's part of the issue.
Fluid has not run dry.....to the extent I know... The cooler is mounted just under the top of the radiator support outboard of the ac condensor and so its the high point in teh steering system. This engine has teh large single belt drive. I have check the fluid a number of times and I've also not noticed it being milky or foaming....I'll pay careful attention to that the next time I'm out to see what I can discern. This is a stock ps pump configuration...it has teh resivor built on to the back...large o ring about pump and the resivor surrounds the pump...the pump seals to the resivor housring.

 

[lcwizard]

I feel for you . I had a aussie up front. Tough steering going downhill on a high traction surface.
I'm still betting on cavitation. If your starving the pump momentarily and it gathers an air bubble it will groan. Same scenario when the fluid is low at any driving condition. Adding a cooler, the bigger the better,
or even a secondary reservoir in the return circuit will add fluid volume. I'd think that would help.

 

[jozlod]

Ah ok, I didnt realise that they mounted like that, I thought mine was a factory PS pump mounted onto the side of the v8, I must be wrong, interesting...

 

[lehiguy]

Get the cooler down so that it is lower than the pump's resevoir. I bet that will solve your problem.

 

[Elbert]

p/s pics

see attached pics.

PS cooler mounted to lower part of upper radiator support...2 or 3 inch gap between cooler and condenser. Top view showing pos pump with resivor and plumbing. -6 an hoses and fittings, high pressure hose is a modifed GM OEM hose with AN fitting placed on gear end.

 

[Elbert]

2nd group of pics

see attached pics part II. These pics show greater detail of the pump. The red hose wrap protests the fitting at teh end of the -6 hose from rubbing the gear. What is hard to see...but you then have a barbed adapter and a short section of hose that mates with the GM hard line that feeds the ps resivor. Last pic just shows how the ps pump looks on this style GM 5.7 with resivor included.

 

[Elbert]

Get the cooler down so that it is lower than the pump's resevoir. I bet that will solve your problem.

what is your line of logic on this?.... just so I'm tracking.

Our initial thoughts were to make sure the cooler was in the air way (path)...and hopefully out of way of rock damage...etc.

 

[Elbert]

I have a similar set up with my diesel swap, different type pump, but cooler, an fittings on steering box and SS braid lines. I don't have any issues with mine and I have nearly 10K miles on the swap.

Could the hose you used be too small in diameter? Or, is the pump to small for your tires and use? I don't know the saginaw pumps.

I used #4 teflon lined SS hose and fittings for supply side and 1/2" rubber return lines with Earls cooler and stock Isuzu remote PS reservoir.

Here is how mine looks. Keep in mind too, that my PS pump is gear driven and is around 12-1400 psi.

Doug

did you try any other mount locations for the cooler?

 

[lehiguy]

what is your line of logic on this?.... just so I'm tracking.

Our initial thoughts were to make sure the cooler was in the air way (path)...and hopefully out of way of rock damage...etc.

Air pockets. The only place you want air is in the void at the top of the resevoir and the best way to accomplish that is to make it the highest spot in the circuit. (I could be wrong, it is just a guess.) I have never had any problems like you desrcibe in the ten years I have run a V8 and all I have used for a cooler is the stock hard line below the radiator. I know it's not ideal, but it seems to work just fine.

 

[ntsqd]

There is a simple way to raise the top of the fluid in the reservoir and increase the fluid volume at the same time. You'll need to find a junk PS pump with the reservoir still attached, and some oil compatible hose in a size that fits over the bung on the reservoir. Cut the bung off the junker and use the hose (& obviously hose clamps) to connect the junker's bung with the current one. How high the new cap placement is depends on how long a piece of hose. I'd raise it up to where filling and checking the fluid level is easy and doesn't require a funnel. I'm guessing that you can wrap a longer hose clamp around the top of the hose and some of the front dress bracketry to keep it from flopping around. Otherwise pick out a convenient bolt and put an "L" or "U" shaped tab under it, with the upper hose clamp wrapping around the other end of the tab as well as the hose.

I'm thinking that you should be able to raise the cap to a point above the cooler using this trick. A friend of mine came up with it for his FJ40 because cap access was a PITA with the front dress that he used.

The other option would be to pull the grill and temporarily unbolt the cooler from it's mounts and lay it over on the front bumper or something, and then bleed the PS system.

 

[Elbert]

Air pockets. The only place you want air is in the void at the top of the resevoir and the best way to accomplish that is to make it the highest spot in the circuit. (I could be wrong, it is just a guess.) I have never had any problems like you desrcibe in the ten years I have run a V8 and all I have used for a cooler is the stock hard line below the radiator. I know it's not ideal, but it seems to work just fine.

Good advice....I've attached a PDF I came across in a web search. Guess I'll be finding a location lower than the resivor...appreciate the feedback.

 

[Elbert]

There is a simple way to raise the top of the fluid in the reservoir and increase the fluid volume at the same time. You'll need to find a junk PS pump with the reservoir still attached, and some oil compatible hose in a size that fits over the bung on the reservoir. Cut the bung off the junker and use the hose (& obviously hose clamps) to connect the junker's bung with the current one. How high the new cap placement is depends on how long a piece of hose. I'd raise it up to where filling and checking the fluid level is easy and doesn't require a funnel. I'm guessing that you can wrap a longer hose clamp around the top of the hose and some of the front dress bracketry to keep it from flopping around. Otherwise pick out a convenient bolt and put an "L" or "U" shaped tab under it, with the upper hose clamp wrapping around the other end of the tab as well as the hose.

I'm thinking that you should be able to raise the cap to a point above the cooler using this trick. A friend of mine came up with it for his FJ40 because cap access was a PITA with the front dress that he used.

The other option would be to pull the grill and temporarily unbolt the cooler from it's mounts and lay it over on the front bumper or something, and then bleed the PS system.

I think there are versions of this same pump configuration / 5.7 vortec with a remote p/s resivor. Maybe on 1 ton trucks or vans ...I'll look around. I'm sure I've seen a picture of that somewhere.

 

[505 crusher]

I run a pump from an express van 5.7 with a mini truck reservoir. I had gearbox clearance issues with the stock pump in my setup. With the extra capacity of the reservoir and a cooler mounted down low, I haven't had any issues.

 

[jcj_78FJ40]

I would agree on lowering the cooler. When I installed a cooler on my 40, the instructions were very specific on mouting it below the resovoir.

Makes sense, when you are climbing a hill, the cooler is probably even or higher with the resovoir.