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Front axle service requirements

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by Riley, Aug 29, 2003.

  1. Riley

    Riley

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    Because of all the horror stories and I believe there to be wear on the front axles - I want to ensure that this job is done correctly and doesn't have to be revisited. My truck has 70K miles and I hope that it's going to have a long and happy life. :D

    I plan on having this done at the dealer here in Canada and they don't see many 80s up here. This dealer does service a few of them I know that they have done the job a few times. I also know the parts guys there and they are cruiser fans and will watch out for me to some extent (also less 15% on parts). :D

    When presenting this to the dealer mechanic I plan on being very "nice" as to not piss them off. I'll just explain that I'm a paranoid owner and I want to ensure that this is done correctly.


    I've even included the preamble to allow you guys to check my manners. ::)

    Comments please as I'm sure I've missed alot. I basically compiled this from info gathered from this site.

    ---------- Dear Mr Toyota Technican --------------

    Full Front Axle Repack – Here’s my list of I want to be inspected/replaced in addition to what a good Toyota tech would do on this job regardless.

    Please take no offence to this list. I have created this list after hearing of a number of problems from other owners across the US and Canada. Because the FZJ-80 is a full time system, higher levels of wear are expected than on other part time systems. This vehicle is expected to be used off-road and we don’t want any surprises in the field.

    Thanks the owner - Riley

    When draining front diff/axle oil please note the colour and look for knuckle grease contamination.

    Of course be careful of the ABS sensor during disassembly.

    In addition to the birfield repack job, I want to ensure that the inner axle and hub seals will do their job once when completed. To this end, I want to ensure that the seal surfaces on the inner axle and on the spindle have no or little wear. Please do not assemble until discussing with owner. Perhaps surfaces will need to be remanufactured or replaced in order to provide a good surface for the seals.

    Question to mudders (Christo et al.) – how much wear is acceptable? Any at all? How to measure/spec?

    Replace (regardless of wear) the upper knuckle (kingpin) and lower knuckle (trunion) bearings. Save old bearings.

    Inspect inner and outer wheel bearings for wear.

    Inspect the brass bushing inside the spindle for wear.

    Inspect birfields for wear. Comment on wear of birfield as well as the condition of the old grease.

    Ensure the brass bushing inside the spindle is well greased before reassembly.

    Before reassembly discuss with owner. Owner would like to inspect the parts in order to learn first hand the condition of the front axle system.
     
  2. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Supporting Vendor Moderator

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    "please check/adjust knuckle bearing pre-load and wheel bearing pre-load using a spring tension gauge. Please do not assemble using air tools, please use a torque wrench".



    My anal-retentive .02..............Dan.
     
  3. SeanAndHis80

    SeanAndHis80

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    I wouldn't ask that they be careful of the ABS ring, they would know that and wouldn't return the vehicle with the ABS light on.

    Wouldn't you ask that the replace all seals while in there? The bulk of the cost of this job is by far labor not parts.

    Also you might want to make the list seem MUCH smaller. Group things into one request like "please report to me the condition of the inner and outer wheel bearings, the brass bushing inside the spindle, and, very importantly, the birfields." and "please replace all seals and the kingpin and trunion bearings saving the old parts if possible."

    JMO.

    - Sean
     
  4. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    Riley,

    In my case and several others that have personally done this job or inspected theirs, the hub nuts had been removed for prior service (e.g. wheel bearing repacks during routine brake service.) In almost all cases the hub nuts were removed and reinstalled with chisels or screwdrivers or something that created burrs on the hub nuts. In my case and some others that I've heard about, these burrs have caused the bearings to quickly "loosen" and have to be retightened.

    Bottom line: If the hub nuts have any burrs then please replace them with new ones.

    -B-
     
  5. Riley

    Riley

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    Good advice guys, I'll update with your comments.

    Any ideas on how much wear on the axle and spindle for where the seal is?
     
  6. Big_Moose

    Big_Moose

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    Riley

    Like others have mentioned, I would condense the letter to possibly an outline / checklist format. Try to talk to the technician as you had over the cruiser, show him your list, mention your concerns, and politely say thanks / appreciate it, and go have a few #6's till its ready :D :D

    My list:
    - replace all seals

    - disassemble the birfield, inspect bell, inner race cage and star.

    - Check spindle for wear from wheel bearings / replace if out of spec.

    - Check spindle bushing for wear / replace if out of spec.

    - repack grease inside the birfield / CV joint itself

    - replace knucke bearings (top / bottom) [could replace the wheel bearings, since you are paying for the labor, since they are in there anyway]

    - install new steering arm shims in same order as removed (or use the SST to center axle shaft)

    - set wheel / knuckle bearing preload to spec (per CDans post)

    - replace spindle nuts (per Beowulf) - if you where doing this yourself, you could clean-up the edges with a file, and reuse the nuts. I've had no problems on all part-timers, but the wear should be the same.

    Axle seal surface is highy polished, and any type of wear is fairly obvious through discoloration, scoring, pitting, etc. The Toyota technician should be able to tell if the inner axle shaft & birfield seal surfaces are good / bad.

    Joe
     
  7. nakman

    nakman addict. Supporting Vendor

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    I'll second what Beowolf said, it's amazing how buggered up those hub nuts can be, and what PO's consider to be acceptable. Usually you can file them flat again when doing this job yourself, but there's really no excuse for not buying (or borrowing) the hub socket. btw, I'm still laughing at the binary signature comment, that's great.

    Curious though, Riley, why don't you want to do this yourself? So many have said if there's one job every Cruiser owner needs to know how to do...
     
  8. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Supporting Vendor Moderator

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    A minor tweak to Joe's list, if I may.

    Joe, it appears that you have yet to do your 80. Luckily for us the knuckle is shimmed only under the top cap so it is not necessary to center it like you would on a 40/55/60/62.

    Just a hair to split........ :)


    Dan.
     
    blunderbuss likes this.
  9. Riley

    Riley

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    I know I should do this myself and I would IF I thought the everything was in resonable shape in there. Consider that -

    - what if the axles need to be replaced or reman'd
    - I don't know if I would be able to check that the other components are within spec.
    - don't have the time or all the tools

    I plan to do this the next time (say 5 years) but I'm worried that I'll get in there and then run into trouble. Perhaps it's jst the paranoia setting in.

    Funny I'm thinking about doing the stupid heater hose replacement myself (which I hear is one of the hardest things) but on this one I'd like to play it safe.

    When I bought this rig I built into my purchase price the cost of a dealer done repack so I'm trying to pretend that I've already paid for it.

    I'm a electrical eng by trade and not bad with tools ect... but I haven't done real big jobs before. If I was closer to other mudders then I might be more willing to do.
    Heck I'm not sure even what spindle is.

    Riley
     
  10. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Supporting Vendor Moderator

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    Riley,

    Two questions for you.

    First a brief statement:

    You said it has 70k miles on it, that is very much in the window of when "the list" thinks this should be done. In other words, it's not a zillion miles over-due.


    Question #1 Does it click and clack when you turn?

    Question #2 Is there a ton off "goop" on the back of the knuckles and is stuff dripping on the ground?

    If the answer to both of these questions is "Nope" the likelyhood of needing anything "fixed" is VERY low.

    I think you should do it yerself. Afterall, it is THE rite of passage into the cruiser world.
     
  11. Big_Moose

    Big_Moose

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    Dan

    Thanks for the tip - learning something new every day!. I haven't torn into the 80 front axle yet, but, way too many other cruiser fronts. Parts are sitting in the shop waiting for the rebuild in next couple of weeks. Radiator first! Working on the '40, Clutch MC / Slave replacement tomorrow.

    Riley,

    If you have done the front on the BJ, you should be able to do the 80, say cash to buy more goodies.

    Joe
     
  12. nakman

    nakman addict. Supporting Vendor

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    Glad others are pushing the diy... consider this, once you master the knuckle job, you'll never pay anyone again for the following..
    1. remove/replace brake rotors
    2. repack wheel bearings
    3. remove/replace brake pads
    4. remove/replace axle seals

    fwiw, the spindle is what your wheel bearings turn around on, here's a pic.
    :)
     
  13. Riley

    Riley

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    Dan -

    No clicking in the Birfs even in low range and tight turns (if that matters).

    I can tell from the service records that the knuckles were leaking for quite sometime (10K miles ???). The toy dealers kept reminding the PO to fix this (I can see on the service records). Before selling it the PO just had a wheel bearing repack only.

    I used the above info to convince the PO that his price was toooo high and we knocked off $1K from our last "working price". During this negotiation the PO told me that the dealer told him to keep this "well greased as there is a fair amount of play in there". Now it's hard to know what that means for me. Perhaps it's the knuckle bearings only.
    But I'm worried (paranoid) that if they were leaking for sometime that the seal spring has worn the spindle/axle surface.

    It's not dripping oil right now but then the wheel bearing repack was just done and is perhaps soaking up any excess diff oil.

    The truck steers well ect....

    Perhaps I should do this myself but if the axle is worn then I'm not sure I can take this to completion.

    Perhaps with all the support here I could do this myself. I do want to be accepted into the Cruiser world at some point after all.

    Riley
     
  14. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Supporting Vendor Moderator

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    [move][glow=red,2,300]YOU CAN DO IT[/glow][/move]





    ;)
     
  15. stlcruiser

    stlcruiser

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    If I can do it (including trunion bearing replacement), anyone can. Useing CDan for all of the parts, Jim Phillips, and George's write-up's, along with the FSM for reference it is a very strait forward procedure if you TAKE YOUR TIME and be very methodical about the whole thing. Necessary tools:
    Floor jack, jack stands, Torque wrench, brass drift, hub socket, retaining clip pliers, socket set, 3 lb hammer, seal puller, tie rod puller, big bucket, parts cleaner. I had none of these before I did this service. The money you save by DIY more than pays for all you need plus a lot left over for the fun stuff.
     
  16. Riley

    Riley

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    [quote author=stlcruiser link=board=2;threadid=4778;start=msg36407#msg36407 date=1062191016]
    If I can do it (including trunion bearing replacement), anyone can.
    [/quote]

    you think so?? Check out "My worst Sunday ever" post in the chit chat section. It's a good read if anything.

    I'll reread the instructions and see what I think. I've got the FSM coming from Dan in awhile and in the mean time I'll price out the tools.

    The parts cleaner, is that a big thing like a sink? Space is limited in my garage. Good thing I haven't sold the 60 yet as the 80 could be down for 2 weeks or more.
     
  17. stlcruiser

    stlcruiser

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    Use brake cleaner for a concentrated spray and the five gallon bucket fill half way with a solvent for washing bearings, bolts, and the intack birfield, etc.
     
  18. Big_Moose

    Big_Moose

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    My turn to make a minor change

    Stlcruiser / Riley - Please do NOT wash your bearings in the DIRTY cleaning solvent you used to wash the front axle parts. Always use fresh / clean solvent when cleaning bearings, especially new bearings / or the wheel bearing if planning on reusing them.

    Joe
     
  19. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Supporting Vendor Moderator

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    Riley,

    Maybe Dave will let ya do it in his driveway ;)

    It's not like it's an oil change ya know. ::)



    I really think you could do it. the only really "odd ball" stuff you need is the spring tension gauge and the hub nut socket. You could get a genuine hub nut socket for about 25 bucks.


    OK, I'll lay off now. Take care of it however you are most comfortable and we won't fault you for it. I think the way I view it is like this: Knowledge is power, knowing what's in there and how it fits togther and that you had it apart yourself is power. The part about saving several hundred bucks is the icing.

    Dan.
     
  20. Riley

    Riley

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    Yea, I just worry that I'll get it apart and then a few months later I'll pull it apart because something isn't quite right. You know tinker tinker. ::) ::)

    Then the wife gets pissed off cause I spend all the time in the garage and then she leaves me then I hire a lawyer ( maybe Simon) and I'd be broke :'(

    Plus in the end she'd get the 80 cruiser and I'd get the 60. :banana:

    We shall see. ???

    R