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drivetrain swap or am I on drugs ?

Discussion in '40- & 55-Series Tech' started by toddslater, Nov 11, 2002.

  1. toddslater

    toddslater SILVER Star

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    I've been thinking...which is not always a good thing. The ultimate target of my madness is to get 20+ mpg out of a 73 FJ40. I have an 84 sr5 xcab sitting at home (owned since new) "the donor", and I was thinking of plucking the engine, 5sp trans, and transfer case out and with some modification putting it into the FJ. Lets do some math...the 1F motor puts out 135 ponies and 217 lbs o' torq. The 22r puts out 105 and 137 respectively. Obviously, I am down on power and torq. I was looking thru some old NW offroad catalogues and therein they have carb, header, cam kits that while,not exactly specific in their claims, claim to boost the 22r upwards towards the 1F's range. I would imagine equal HP but probably still a little low on torq. Well, that is the general thought that I am looking for feedback/experience with/on. Other things to factor, I would be shedding alot of weight...which would helpout in the HP/torq losses. I'd also be going from a 2.757 first gear ratio down to a 3.93 which is nice. And finally, 5 gear...it is concievable that 20+ mpg could happen on the hwy. Other options, considerations... mate the 5sp to the 1F ? I am not looking to make this a beast rock crawler. More a daily driver that is all toyota and gets decent gas mileage. I am interested in your thoughs.
     
  2. woody

    woody Internet Fireman Staff Member

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    IMO, you will be hard pressed to get mileage improvements with a minitruck driveline swap into a FJ40. The aerodynamic differences and the power loss would drive ya nuts. The 22R motor is no performance monster, even with the claims that NWOR makes (which, from the things I read on 4x4wire and other places, are FAR from accurate)

    I have heard many good things tho about 4.3 TBI swaps into the FJ40, and mileage numbers in the 22-24 mpg range.

    Mileage is nice, but when you spend all your time with your foot on the floor trying to accellerate, you'll appreciate those extra CU's. Compromise is the key there, and the 4.3 just might be the ticket.
     
  3. toddslater

    toddslater SILVER Star

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    Brian,
    Thanks for your thoughts on the power plant. I am not a fan of the vortec plant. Has anyone or is there an adaptor out there for hooking up the 1F to the G52 (I think) trans. As you say, it is not very areo dynamic and if you have an under-powered power plant...you won't see any gas mileage benefit and be frustrated with the lack of guts. The 1F has enough guts for me and if you could knock down the revs...an improvement in hwy mileage should be noticeable. On the other hand, if I bag the mileage idea, I know I can pick up an adaptor for the trans and hook it up to either a 350 or a 5.0 ford...I have a spare 5.0 on the engine stand right now. Just thinking out loud, trying to come up with the best combo with bits that I already have sitting around the house.
     
  4. denis

    denis (O) toyota nut (O) SILVER Star

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    find yourseld a diesel engine, a 12V 3B for instance, and discover what mileage means :D
    You probably don't have one sitting in your garage though ;)
     
  5. 2car

    2car

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    There's one for sale near me; 3b diesel with a 5 speed and splitcase for AU$1500. About $800 US I guess.
     
  6. PHAT MAX

    PHAT MAX

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    IMO the 2f would probably get better mileage than the F....just dont think that the F is better than the 2F. if you can go deisel or go propane. or diesel with propane :D
     
  7. woody

    woody Internet Fireman Staff Member

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    If I'm guessing that the G52 is a minitruck tranny, then I've not heard of any adapters. The H55F Toyota tranny is a 5-speed tho and there have been 4-5 writeups on that one linked here. Your only other option would be a overdrive unit I'm afraid.

    What kinda of rev changes would you see with 3.73 gears??

    Also, it's worth checking the performance curve characteristics of your existing motor. I switched from 31"x10.5 stock tires on my 1995 V6 Toyota pickup and went with 33x10.5 tires - no other changes. Effectively, I've added an overdrive. My mileage _dropped_ slightly. (but it looks cooler) Simply dropping the RPM's of the motor and expecting better mileage is not necessarily realistic. The motor's performance and design is more important, and the F is no screamer. The 2F is a better candidate, as Max said, but still may not net you the 20+ you seek.

    I agree the vortec is not the greatest motor....but they are common, parts are cheap and available at any partshouse in any town, and you can buy a complete doner vehicle for $500 or less and have at it.

    There are stories out there of the 22 mpg FJ55 with a F motor and 33" tires. IMO, those are stories and likely not realistic.
     
  8. 74cruzah

    74cruzah

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    22 mpg with f and 33's? that is ridiculous. that is my setup, and I have a 74 F which is probably the best one out there and I doubt that I get better than 12-14 mpg tops.
     
  9. Design311

    Design311

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    I have a 73FJ40 with the F in it. I just rebuilt my carb about 2 months ago and I'm getting 14-15 mpg. I also did a complete tune up which always helps too :D
     
  10. toddslater

    toddslater SILVER Star

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    Thanks for the input. I'll try to catch everything here. To the diesel proponents. Yes, I agree diesel would probably be the ideal solution, if I were to go that route i'd probably dig something out of the local bone yards versus an Aussie unit. That could be troublesome to get bits for here in the states.

    F versus 2F, I never understood the fascination with the 2F. If you go to the motor link it tells you that the 2F is rated at the same 135 HP and drops off slightly to 210 in the torq dept. I see the same animals here...swapping one for the other would be like well masterbating. :eek:

    After some more Stoudts Scarlett Lady ESB (thinking medicine) and remembering that I really would like to use things already at hand...if I do anything at this point, I'll probably mate the 5.0 liter up to the mini truck 5sp and tcase using an off the shelf adaptor and fab up some drive shafts using the mini trucks as a starting point. Take out the f, 3sp, tcase, and drive shafts and put them on a shelf in case the return to originality bug ever bites.

    The 5.0 set up could do no worse in the mpg and with the 5sp could potentially get 3-5 mpg better.

    Everyones continued thoughts are appreciated and welcome.
    Thanks,
    Todd
     
  11. toddslater

    toddslater SILVER Star

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    Well, the 22R idea hasn't completely died...I found this last night after doing a search for "22R upgrades":

    "From 1984 to 1989 Toysport prepared a Spec-Engine for SCORE / HDRA Toyota private entrants. The winnings from the Toyota Contingency Program testify to the racing capability of the set-up. The engine package kit is still available, as complete engines. This set-up won National Championships for Toyota in Class 7 and Class 7 4WD. The carbureted engines developed 185-195 HP, but consistently out ran the 239-240 HP Ford engines in the same class. The secret is in the torquey characteristics of the power band. The limiting factor of this engine is also its strongest point. The long stroke limits RPM capability to about 6200 maximum, but the bottom end will take a lot of abuse. The crankshaft is forged."

    More info on the 22R is located at :

    www.toysport.com/Technical Information/ 22r_tech_notes.htm

    Before I completely abandon the 22R idea, I need to get more tech info on a built up 22R...I have built grenade motors in the past (ahhhh to be young again) not what I'm going for here... Need to find out the max HP and Torque and Reliability/Longevity.
     
  12. denis

    denis (O) toyota nut (O) SILVER Star

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    more output = more fuel
    I think you'd be disappointed with a sharp small displacement comp. engine in your cruiser. Especially if you happen to drive it the cruiser way, or go offroad. If you're in drag racing, though it'll probably be OK. (Just MHO as usual ;))

    If you really want mileage, I can hook you up with a fuel injected 58ci that should do the trick. Probably 35+ mpg @ 50 mph :p
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    22R,
    When I was looking to buy my BJ40, I first looked at a RJ70(Bundera with 22R) it drove just like a FZJ80R.
    Conclusion: The RJ70 dose'nt weigh much lees than a xx40 but does have 105HP.
     
  14. Planet_X

    Planet_X

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    Buy a Prius. I'm a big fan of reality and well if you want great gas mileage + all Toyota the Prius is your ticket . Course I think there may be some Nissan tech thrown into the Prius mix....
    Come on do you think they will let you burn gas forever? burn all you can well you can- I say.

    Good excuse to build a trick extended mileage gas tank, or float some bank to man-fre or percival fabrications for new gas tank.

    If you must have cruiser sheet metal look into the Ford 300 cubic inch inline six multipoint fuel injection + will fit into the forty nicely ,then lighten up your rig- aftermarket aluminum tub maybe some glass or carbon fiber body panels , aluminum wheels etc. Less weight less gas you've got to burn to move.
     
  15. pablo

    pablo

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    Okay, so someone help me here. What I thought would be a good idea for a not too expensive swap is a 250 Chevy inline 6 like the one in my 79 Nova. It is a much smaller block, but better milage in the car. It gets almost 22 mpg (3 speed automatic). I bet it would use a regular V8 adaptor or possibly just a SM420/ SM465 to J30 transfer case. In my fj-40 I bet I could probably get at best 17 mpg. That Nova is not that light. It already has HEI and likely would fit well in the Cruiser. I think that it would mean a cross member on the transfer case though. I have not looked at the motor mounts. I guess one need more valving and fuel injection to really save on the gas. I don't know what the redline on that motor is though. Any thoughts?
    Pablo
     
  16. toddslater

    toddslater SILVER Star

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    I have no earthly idea what a Prius is....is it a neutered priest ?

    Anywho, been talking with Carl at lcengineering (somewhere in arizona)...and while they can build a fairly reliable 22R with 185 HP and similar torque...the problem lies in the the motors don't can't make torque down low in the RPM's. He hit me with an old addage that I have used in the past.."there is no substitute for cubic inches". Therefore based upon the law of CI...it appears that the 5.0 on the engine stand will get mated up to the G52 5sp and transfer case, we'll have to do a little head scratching to see if the mini rear fits up to give me a centered rear diff...and of course the mini truck front discs and birfields and the mini truck power steering. This should keep me out of trouble for awhile.
     
  17. woody

    woody Internet Fireman Staff Member

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    "there's no replacement for displacement"

    good....now that your head is cleared, I no longer have to hide my pipe....
     
  18. toddslater

    toddslater SILVER Star

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    Brian,

    Unfortunately the pipe just makes a dull thud on impact...usually I reach true enlightenment after multiple cold beverages. Hmmmm time for one mo before bed :eek:
     
  19. toddslater

    toddslater SILVER Star

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    Or was that a hash pipe ? ;)
     
  20. Planet_X

    Planet_X

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