Builds My LC 80 thread. (1 Viewer)

[Dave 2000]

Running hot update.

Eventually got around to replacing the thermostat this morning. Thermostat and gasket from 'Blue Print' part number ADT39207, this is a 76 degree C (168.8 F) version as per the parts catalogue. Car has returned to it's more or less running temp with the gauge moving from 1/4 at the bottom of my favourite 500 metre 'test' hill and moved to just under half in 29 degree C (89 F) ambient at an alleged 80 MPH, so that has to be good. I can only assume the gauge reading a little high after leaving the garage forecourt last week was some heat soak? This may seem weird to some, but will be familiar to many when I say I am not 100% sure this was the cause? You know, THAT feeling that something is just not....quite right? I could just be Mr Picky but will watch the gauge like a hawk, A thermal sensor will be put on the head later in the week, perhaps Tuesday pm to see if I am just being unnecessarily worried. Still trying to get some smoked Perspex to put the fan warning LED's behind, I did find a supplier in the UK but he wanted an arm and a leg.......oh and my first born to ship over!

EDIT: I would like to add that, if it was not for this thread started by Raventai: https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/93-97-coolant-temperature-gauge-modification.64252/

I would not have had a clue that something was going on, still one of the best things you could do to your 80...period!


Get back to you,

regards

Dave

 

[kevsta]

Hi Dave.. long time.. I see you're still at it.. "Animal" is 215k miles now and still going strong..

I recently replaced the rad on mine because the old one had started to weep at the top where the metal joins the plastic on the rad. I had a look around and Roughtrax have a replacement, but for similar money I could get one of those Chinese aluminium ones plus a set of silicon hoses for it too, so decided to take a gamble on one, and thankfully, after a not particularly easy fitting, it seems to have paid off.

Unfortunately I only managed to get one pic of the installation halfway through, but the rad arrived and seems to be very good quality construction, and does fit, but only after the 2 side brackets had been substantially cut, and the 2 stud hole opened out (centres were too close) plus we had to then cut the 2 top mounting bolt holes in the tangs on the rad. not exactly "DIY" but seems worth the effort thus far

The Rad is from Winner Racing from ebay and is supposedly 40% uprated cooling-wise.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121371776208?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

since installation I have noticed 2 things, firstly the temp now sits just slightly below the halfway mark when it used to be just slightly above it. ..and given that the gauge is engineered not to show small changes, it would seem from this that it must actually be running a noticeable amount cooler?

the other thing that would seem to corroberate this, is (you remember my car?) it (still) has that hot running poor idle problem, if outside air temp is 25+ I didnt ever fix it as it's only a summer and /or hard driving thing, (and the hand throttle allows slight increase in idling speed to hide it anyway) however since the new rad is on, it hasn't done it at all any more. Now as we get hot and then come into traffic, the tickover gets just slightlier lumpy (nothing like before) but goes away again as soon as we're moving..

As I had already diagnosed it as an intermittent heat-related injector problem, ie only happens when the engine reaches a certain heat, Im now thinking the uprated cooling capacity is maintaining a lower max operating temperature, and preventing the onset of the problem?

does this sound feasible / reasonable to you?

also, re Spanish legalities, so this is the year mine finally gets it's mods. Ive got a vehicle engineering firm who are going to do "the project" for homologation (350eu) and a set of guidelines to make things easier. the way it works is I have to get a fresh ITV as-is, then go hell for leather to get all the mods on and done in the next year, they also have to be fitted (or at least signed off as fitted by..) a registered garage

bumpers and sliders Im having custom-made, and am assured this is ok as long as they are high quality, and the rear bumper height restrictions are followed. ( < or = 500mm from ground ) the rear bumper looks exactly like the OEM one but steel anyway. the front is a bit funkier.

am going to try to get a US style hitch bar homologated too, I really want this, not for towing, but for a (motor)bike rack at a later date. we'll see I suppose.

suspension, any more than 100mm lift and I would have to take it to Barcelona for brake testing, but thats not an issue as Im looking at 75mm minus a little with the weight of the extras, so prob 50-60mm. am looking at the Tough Dog 75mm kit with new (castor angle) bushes and extended brake lines

other than that, I may as well try and get everything done in one go, winch, snorkel etc, so I only have to homologate it once.

with regards your thoughts on fully pressurising the cooling system, I was also thinking about this, the new rad arrived with 1.8 bar cap (0.9 standard) I put a new 0.9 on it, but would be very interested to know more about an enclosed system if you do that, please do put details up if/when?

best regards from the Baleares

kevsta

 

[Dave 2000]

Hi Kevin, I have replied to your PM.

Re the above:

I am glad you are going to a vehicle engineering firm to get the work done,there is more chance it will pass homologation this way.

I am surprised about the rear bumper being made of steel, it would be good if you can get that passed as they are not normally allowed, if it looks stock you might get away with that, keep me informed. You are right about not lifting too much, I was told 50mm attracts no attention, anything more and 'additional tests' may be needed, our nearest 'special' test station is in Alicante over two hours away! I think the testing is done for the rear load sensor/limiter will need to be reset and of course castor alters which may affect stability under braking.

Extra cooling from the rad is always better and despite it being a chino item the quality looks good. Agreed the temp gauge movement is quite significant as the gauge was not modified by me when the PO had the car. I have found that when these engines get very hot they are not as smooth as normal, whist it could be a hot injector issue I am more inclined towards it being something in the pump not compensating for the hot fuel? Mine 'hunted' very slightly when I was testing the electric fan, I disconnected the slow speed fan and waited for the temp to get quite hot before the second speed fan cut in, the engine hunted a few times during this heating up. The fan cut in and the temps dropped very quickly and the hunting disappeared so....... unsure about this one. My V12 Jaguar had a similar problem when very hot when idling in the fire up road at the drag strip, twin fuel coolers fitted in the boot sorted that problem so may or may not be related. We are expecting 35 degree C tomorrow but I think I will be stuck in the garage all day? I am a little concerned why they (rad supplier) doubled the pressure rating of the cap? Of course that raises the boiling point but it also puts other components under additional stress, the heater matrix for example. I note you replaced the cap with a stock item and is what I would have done, if your engine is boiling with a 0.9 then you have a problem and 1.8 is only going to exacerbate it. BTW, let me know about the quality of the silicone hoses as I am about to purchase a set and don't want to be landed with a set that is either poor quality or do not fit properly.

Whilst on about the cooling system, the fully pressurised system is (temporarily) on the back burner as I had not yet found a suitable pressure vessel with a low water sensor but, I decided to try put a low water level sensor in the top hose: http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/fan-controllers-thermostats/cartek-coolant-level-alarm

This will fit in the top hose quite nicely and the write up explains what it does however, for me this is a problem. I wanted to control the electric 2 speed cooling fan from switches in the top hose in the normal fashion but, there is not enough room for the low water sensor and the fan switches. So the fan switches (info a few posts back) are now in the bottom hose, of course this brings about the problem of finding fan switches that work on a lower temperature setting, for obvious reasons they are a bit thin on the ground. I am still experimenting with this at the moment. If I cannot get really good control of the fan function then I will move the switches to the top hose and then revisit the fully pressurised system I talked about earlier, a case of 'watch this thread'!

Re test time, as mentioned in previous posts, I think 'our' ITV station goes through phases, one week test the tow bar electrics, another week the depth of the orange on the indicator bulbs....(yeh seriously), another week and it is the window tint/seats and so forth, the latest is the air bag function light. I would be lying if I said they checked everything perfectly. Also unsure about your particular province but here if one bulb is out then that is going to be listed under 'defectos gravis' i.e. serious defect, even if it is one of a pair of number plate bulbs is out WTF!!

There is also a new directive about the ABS function testing coming in either June or September, not quite sure yet what it involves but hey just another rule!

I am now just creating a 'project' list for the vehicle engineer, I will get it transalted 'perfecto' and then submit it, I will go for 285 tyres and either 50mm or 75mm lift, snorkel, winch, front bumper wise I will look for the OE Toyota winch version, not many kangaroos here on the mainland, rear bumper can remain the same but would like steel end caps, might need to look at your version Kev and shamelessly copy it

Keep me updated, if I cannot get the mods done here I may have to move house to your province

regards

Dave

 

[Dave 2000]

Update:

Gauge sender arrived.....wrong one! Contacted seller and no reply thus far, most of the time buying on line is good but when it goes wrong, well you just want to shout! At least if you purchased it at the shop you can pop in and point out it is wrong, he can re-order in front of you and then it is done, bar the waiting. With ebay I have to send the part back and then get a refund, my point is it will cost me more in postage to send it back and this happens all the time online. When a seller sends the wrong part he or she should be responsible for putting you financially back where you were before the purchase and not out of pocket which looks like this may be the case, get back to you on this one!

One good thing, I had an appointment at 10.00am today to have the LC engine/and complete under body steam cleaned at the local garage, this guy does all the HGV's in preparation for the inspection and I have seen his work, he misses nothing...nada...zilch. So in typical English tradition I turned up at 09.50 and waited for the driver to return from the bar where he had gone to get a few beers, we needed him to move his HGV off the pit which had just been steamed off and he has the keys, so we waited....and waited......and......waited. It seems the driver not wanting to break typical SPANISH tradition was late....fu*king 40 MINUTES LATE...WTF!!!

I explained I had another appointment, he got in the truck shrugged his shoulders and drove off.......what a cock!! Ah well, what goes around comes around.

Anyway, the steam cleaner guy did his thing and really went at it, apart from the grease any and all the paint came off the axles and suspension and he left the surfaces ready for painting. EVERYTHING is now spotless, even loose surface rust is gone fantastic IMO. There are a couple of areas where the tin worm has been busy in particular the r/h inner rear wheel arch where it meets the sill, this will be welded very soon, the left side at the moment does not look too bad. At the weekend I will be under there checking around the front panhard rod and steering box mounts where these are known to corrode and rectify if necessary. Over the coming weeks I will be under there with the paint brush, probably go with Hammerite paint, perhaps dk green or black, I may source a small compressor and thin the paint down and spray it on?

Get back to you,

regards

Dave

 

[Dave 2000]

Arrrrgh! One step forward and two back! Hit the mountains for some R & R and noticed the oil pressure had disappeared! The pressure gauge on the HDJ 80 is the only warning of low oil pressure and as everyone notices a light before the gauge slowly drops I had already retro fitted a buzzer and light. There was no buzzer and no light so I knew I had oil pressure, a quick glance under the car showed no oil on the floor so I carried on to find a wider area on the track I was following. Found a safe place and jumped out expecting to find a wire off the pressure sender, I was right, the cable had come out of the crimp and was touching the sender canister, this is earth so I expected some damage. I pushed the wire back in the crimp and the gauge still showed nothing. The normal pressure sensors are set at around 4/5 psi, but way back last year I fitted an adjustable one and know for sure I have at least 20 psi or the light/buzzer would have been shown/sounding and given my location a tow truck was out of the question! So knowing I am not stranded I returned to my camp and started a few tests. I have a basic tool kit kept in the 80 at all times in a couple of canvas rolls and a multimeter, so what do I have? Three cables to the sensor, one is earth (white with black tracer) and the other two are paralleled (white with white and brown). The earth checked out ok and the other shows 12.2 volts and not my battery voltage of 12.8, I am guessing there is a stabiliser in there somewhere. When the cables are connected to the sensor the voltage drops to zero so am unsure at the moment what is going on. 'Chris' over at Land Cruiser club in the UK was kind enough to send me a schematic of the dashboard and this shows a fuse for the gauges but it is for all of them, pulling it drops the remaining three out of circuit so I know that is good, I am betting the 12+ wire has shorted the gauge and cooked it?

I will pull the dashboard after breakfast, and assuming the forest police don't give me any grief for staying here last night I will stay another and trundle down sometime tomorrow. I do not need any RTH on this and can get home when ready so, if anybody has seen this before or has any ideas feel free to give me a shout, I am on mobile internet and the signal is pretty good so I should get your posts if any are forthcoming.

Get back to you,

TIA

regards

Dave

 

[Dave 2000]

Oil pressure gauge update. Still up the mountains but did get the dashboard apart and the oil pressure gauge out. I had followed the schematic and had power where I should have power and resistance where I should have resistance and yet it still did not work

I noticed there was more resistance (finger pressure) from the needle in one direction and not the other but could not see any form of wound spring to force the needle back to rest i.e. no volts no reading. My eyes are not great close up but eventually noticed the pin that was applying the pressure against the needle should actually be in a tiny slot in the base of the needle, this was not obvious to me, the small size of the components and aforementioned dodgy 'lamps' did not help.

I carefully manoeuvred the pin back into the slot and I am thinking this is the fix, the gauge fuse had not blown but, I reckon the bimetallic strip got so hot it buckled enough to pull the pin out of the needle base? In one of the pictures you can see one of the windings has some discolouring, this may or may not be cause by the direct current?

I will put the dash back in tomorrow morning and put the oil pressure sensor back together and see what occurs, have a glance at the pictures in thumbnail view, that is pretty much what I could see, it is only when the pictures are zoomed in the problem was obvious.

regards

Dave



For some reason the site is rotating the pictures so copy and paste to your screen and rotate/zoom to suit your yourself.

Dave

 

[Dave 2000]

Gauge update:

So the problem was as follows:

The wire from the sender that had come off was the earth return to the gauge. It would receive an earth signal from the gauge and the needle would rise and fall accordingly. The dead short to earth had pulled the pin on the bimetallic strip as per my previous post and pictures. Once I put it all back together the gauge was not reading as high as it used to. So I removed the sender and recalibrated it to the gauge so it now reads correctly. The sender has been apart so many times it is looking a little worse for wear, one thing I have noticed is the new ones are calibrated as near as the guy thought 'would do', of course if you like your gauge to read correctly then you should calibrate the sender to your individual gauge. TBH precision is not really called for but as long as the 'sweep' is reasonable enough then most would be happy with that, IMO a light and buzzer would get your attention a damn sight faster than a gauge slowly falling as your oil emptied out of the sump.

So that can be put to bed, I have kept the centre part of the dash out (the part that the auto has to show gear selected), on the manual this is a simple black moulding, it would be easy enough to drill a few holes for the cooling fan status LED's but it would look a bit 'mickey mouse' for me so, I have ordered some transfers and am now looking for a piece of Perspex or acrylic to put the transfers on.

FWIW, today I helped marshal an off road event and the 80's excelled but came 2nd and 3rd and 4th, 1st going to a Mitsubishi, there was some humming and arring from the crowd as the Mitsubishi went more or less last when the mud had been cleared and the ground dried up, the 80's going when there was still two foot of very wet mud in 8 foot deep holes, no sour grapes but

That's all for now

regards

Dave

 

[Dave 2000]

I thought as the oil pressure gauge is notorious for being inaccurate or at least reading lower than when new I would post the calibration method.

First and perhaps obvious is you should check that you do indeed have decent oil pressure and use a good quality test gauge to confirm that.

So let us assume you have decent pressure and is within factory specs, the method is as follows:

Remove the sender from the engine block, a bit fiddly but very easy with the spanner bent slightly to get behind the sensor body.

Bend up tabs on the sender body and lift off top, the rubber ring has two functions, one to keep dust out and the second in the unlikely event that the brass pressure disc fails oil will drip from that seal as opposed all over the floor in X seconds.

Now extend the connecting wires up from their original location, now you can keep the sender at a comfortable work height, make sure you note which connection goes where.

Connect the wires to the sender body as per the original, the connection that contacts the lid contact is easy enough but the body earth is a little more awkward, I pushed the bared strands of the extension wire into a hole in the sender base.

To make this easier you could do what I did and purchase a flexible extension and screw it into the block and then reconnect the gauge, my master gauge is permanently connected to this now, either method works but the extension tube makes it easier to test the sender as you can start and stop the engine without loosing oil.

Now switch on the ignition DO NOT CRANK!

Check that NO other electrics are on and the battery is fully charged.

Now you need to look at the sender mechanism, you will see a toothed wheel, this has a ramp and allows you to open/close the contacts on the bimetallic strip simply by rotating the wheel a little at a time, (thin nose pliers) you need to adjust this normally a VERY small amount, and invariably to move the contact down the ramp, this brings the contact points closer together i.e. the sensor becomes more sensitive.

So rotate the wheel a tiny amount and then check the pressure gauge, careful about the angle you look at the gauge, the needle is a fair distance from the clock face, if you look at it straight on it should be reading at the very first mark on the gauge or fractionally below, if not adjust a small amount again, if you adjust too far the gauge will show oil pressure even though the engine is not running.

When you are happy it is accurate turn off the ignition and wait at least a minute or so, this allows all heat to dissipate from the bimetallic strips, put the ignition back on and check where the needle comes to rest.

Now assemble up and refit the sender, be careful to check the connection that touches the lid has not been disturbed, try not to rotate the lid as you fit it as the top connection can get caught in the rivet head inside, this twists it and could leave you showing no pressure, check for leaks blah blah....

One of the notable problems if you are not using the extension to the sender is that you cannot start/stop the engine to check all is well, also if the ignition is on too long before you finalise the adjustment battery voltage drops a little and this affects the reading, with the engine running the increase in voltage from the alternator increases the reading very slightly, even if the gauge has a stabiliser on the supply, I have not seen this yet and it may be there somewhere.

EDIT:

[I noticed when switching off the engine and then immediately switching on just the ignition, the oil pressure gauge needle stops falling just above the minimum line, if you wait just a few moments more it drops and lines up correctly. The reason for this is because the voltage of the battery is still artificially high from being charged by the alternator (around 14+ volts), with the ignition on the voltage soon drops to the nominal 12.6. So depending on your 'mind set' on how accurate you want it, you can have it reading perfectly if the engine is off but the battery is receiving a charge from an external source.]

As the gauge is not calibrated and marked with pressure readings, you are ultimately looking for a decent 'swing' from idle to X revolutions, this adjustment will give you this, IMO Mr T made a mistake on fitting the gauge but no low pressure light, the typical driver will not notice a gauge slowly falling if you had a small leak, the sump level sensor AFAIK is disabled a few seconds after starting so as not to reflect low oil level when the engine is running. As mentioned in an earlier post a buzzer and light or at least the light is IMO important to have, a simple 'T' in the block with a typical oil pressure switch with an earth return is all that is needed.

With a couple of hand tools and two lengths of wire you can bring your lazy oil pressure gauge back to life.

regards

Dave

 

[Dave 2000]

Update.

The dashboard fan status LED's have been fitted in the centre bar normally used for gear selection indicator on the automatics. On the manual this is an unused panel that can be unplugged and switched for an auto version at will. At the moment the clear LED's don't look great but there is a reason for using the clear high brightness versions. I am waiting for a set of decals to arrive from the UK, depending on how it looks the decals will either be glued on the front or rear of a piece of dark Perspex, the LED's will be expected to shine through..........hopefully.

From bottom upwards the first lights up Green to indicate the fan is on slow speed, the one above lights Amber, this shows the fans second speed, next is the 1st of the larger LED's this flashes Red if the fans fail to control the engine temperature, the final large LED also flashes Red but is paralleled to a buzzer, this indicates oil pressure lower than 15psi, I set it at that, I figured that in the event of a sudden loss of oil pressure the 15psi would give me a few extra seconds to shut down the engine... The oil pressure buzzer and LED self test when the ignition is switched on, cranking the engine brings about the self test for the three temperature LED's, starting the engine they all go out and the buzzer stops.....hopefully ....no seriously they do work fine.

I have also posted a couple of pictures of the dashboard, the intention is to show not only the LED's but also the position of the oil pressure gauge needle mentioned in an earlier post after calibrating the sender, this is with the ignition on and the engine off, the second shows the gauge position at idle when hot. Mobile phone pictures since some bastard stole my camera/passport and other personal 'stuff'.

I will post up the pictures when I have found the right colour/density Perspex and fitted the decals, I would love to have the icons etched out of the same Black material Toyota use at the bottom of the display, i.e. nothing shows unless it lights up, that is a bit of a tall order I think?

regards

Dave

 

[Dave 2000]

Update:

Took the LC inland yesterday and up my 'test hill', temps went up as per expected but the fan did not come on, the new LED's in the dash confirming this. It does appear that the temperature sender is detecting the hotter part of the engine but, by the time the coolant has passed through the rad it is cool enough to not switch on the fan. I guess if the hill was longer and the engine was laboured for awhile longer the fan may well come on. I think it would be fair to say the viscous unit would be picking up this heat and already engaging the fan a lot earlier than my switched system, the engine seeing less variation in overall temperature.

I also done some off road running in the afternoon heat which had just hit 30 degrees C (86.0 F) and when I arrived at a friends and the engine switched off, we chatted for a moment and he invited me around to look at a problem on his Range Rover, I started the engine and the fan came on straight away, so despite knowing that heat rises it also without doubt heats up areas below and had triggered the slow speed of the fan. This coincides with my mention awhile back that the engine is (after working hard) running hotter than it would normally be with the stock VC system. The fan only run for perhaps 20 seconds before it shut down.

Driving around town the temps stay down low and the gauge does not move at all from it's normal reading, in an effort to more mimic the OE offering I plan to use the present slow speed switch to bring in the second speed and put in a new lower temp switch for the slow speed, the problem is going to be finding a lower temp switch, so need to do some site searching.

I am also thinking about moving the power supply from being ignition controlled to permanently connected, this will allow the fan to come on during periods of high heat soak, in theory it is unlikely to be needed if the new switch keeps the overall temperature down but is being considered.

Next week the A/C gets recharged, the A/C condenser will be cooled by the high or second speed of the fan coming in, the OE system with the shroud pulled air over the entire face of the condenser, the electric fan and shroud pulling over perhaps 80%? So I will use the higher fan speed. I will also be experimenting with using the trinary switch (wiring tail's fitted and ready to connect) and the compressor trigger (also ready to connect to) to see if there is any pro's or cons with each triggering method.

Of note so far, the fan is powerful enough on slow speed to cool the engine and I have yet to see the second speed come in, this will all get interesting when the ambient temps hit the 40's (104 F+) in July/August climbing 'the hill' and having the A/C on at the same time!

Get back to you,

regards

Dave

 

[kevsta]

..whist it could be a hot injector issue I am more inclined towards it being something in the pump not compensating for the hot fuel?

this might end up being quite prophetic.. today whilst trying to make sense of these ridiculous chinese silicon hose kit I have, a good 60% of which bears no resemblance to anything on my truck, I noticed this and thought it didnt look very OEM.

if you cant make it out, it has 2 thin water hoses coming out the side of the block, which are then connected either end of a homemade copper u-bend. a look at a schematic shows they are supposed to connect into the side of my fuel pump? there are no connections on my fuel pump anywhere I see for them to go.

hmm. plot thickens. its a good job the rad seems have virtually cured that tickover fault, thus far anyway as if it related to this we have a problem lol. ..given that I found this while wondering why the right hand reversing light wouldnt work last weekend..

yep, someone had cut the loom to the bulb holder (live, still working, dangling with dry dusty tape almost on them) and instead wired the bulb holder into some old, redundant, stereo leads instead yep really.. kinda worries me now what fuel pump "improvements" may have gone down.

but yes, long story short, if the fuel pump is supposed to compensate via a water feed, then mine is most assuredly, not.

 

[kevsta]

ah no, further research shows its just had the ACSD mod done and the hoses looped rather than blocked.

people are recommending that as a fix for the ol "idle shake" and as its warm here I had decided to maybe do that myself one day anyway, way back when I first got it anyway lol.

so as the ACSD is out of the picture, what else in the pump compensates for fuel temperature, any ideas?

 

[Dave 2000]

Hiya Kev, when David the PO had that car we did come across one or two oddments wiring wise, there was IIRC a reversing sensor, unsure if David took it out? I too have removed my ACSD a few (4+?) years back. I used a single pipe to loop from block to head as it looked a lot neater. I wondered if there was another device that compensated for hot running, when I let my engine get hot on purpose the other week it did develop a slightly slower idle and run a little rough. I know that I have a problem with poor running when facing up hill, this is supposed to be fixed by fitting a 'pusher' pump, I can dismiss that as it makes no difference whatsoever, that leaves me thinking about the aging pumps/injectors and fuel density? I then found out about a compensator spring, it is for want of a better description a 'damper' inside the pump. I have an apartment that I often stay in and that has a steep hill to get to it, if I drive up normally there is no problem if I give it the heavy pedal it goes up really well except for the slightest of flat spots, I put this down to the compensator/damper, it is there for perhaps a second, does it more when hot, so slight is the problem that I forget about it for months on end, but again heat related.

Also take note of any rough running you get when related to altitude, there is a diaphragm on the pump and I wondered if it was weak/worn and this could affect fuelling when hot and not necessarily at sea level.

I live at sea level and recall David saying the engine did not seem to suffer if the car had been running around town but, after the climb up to his home (500+ above sea level) it then ran rough until it cooled right off. I would have also thought the rough running would be delayed by carrying a greater quantity of fuel, allowing for longer time to heat up, perhaps a fuel cooler? Ran two in my V12 Jaguar and actually improved my ET's.

These are just thoughts floating around in my head so take them with a pinch of salt until some hard facts are known.

regards

Dave

 

[kevsta]

I am pretty much at sea level here too, the highest point on the island is only 450 metres but with mine it doesnt seem related to where, so much as how. the worst it ever was in fact was the day I got it and the night I got it home. even after the ferry ride (8 hours) had allowed it to fully cool off, as I parked outside home (about 10 miles from the port) it was doing it and I was wondering what I had gotten into.

since then its only been noticeable when its been running 40mins to an hour and you come to a slow, in hot weather (28-30+) and Ive just driven round it, used neutral at stops and raised the tickover on the hand throttle etc.

but I have to say, that I am now mildly hopeful it wont trouble me too much anymore now, after the rad swap, because I was trying to provoke it into doing it a couple of weeks ago in that hot snap, and it wouldn't.

its really quite remarkable to get out at the top of a rough track it just crawled up for the last 15mins, literally burn your arm on the rad at the top, (about 5 times so far, must remember can no longer lean there lol) but the bottom return hose is still only barely lukewarm to touch. I wish I had (ever) tried it on the old rad for comparison, but so far I have to think this one is actually shifting considerably more heat. its nice to be able to drive around with the heater off too..

..so then, I have a spare 10mm coolant flow and return available for further mods then.. what can I fit?

..not an intercooler apparently my homologation guy said that would mean full engine type testing, emissions, power etc required in Madrid, for several thousand euros. boo.

 

[kevsta]

ps re the wiring / rev sensor.. havent found any signs of that, must have been removed. i could understand splicing into the rev light feed to operate something when you go into reverse, but this (feed) was actually cut and taped up, and then bulb then supposed to be powered by ..... instead? seriously cant work out what was supposed to be going on there at all

also think it must have had spotlights on it as there is a relay still spliced into the r/h high beam feed which still clicks when operated, but has no main feed in, or out to the spots any more.

Dave wrt to your electric fan setup, were you suffering cooling issues previously with the viscous? or did you just decide it could be better? Although I like the idea I am kinda loathe to replace a very failsafe type mechanical system for electrics that can fail (fuses relays wiring etc) much easier at any point?

given the reliability of these cars in general I would have to think mr Toyota knew what he was doing and the mechnical viscous system is up to the job if in good condition? I would be more up for adding an extra fan, pushing, from the other side or something, than scrapping the mech system all together

your thoughts please?

 

[Dave 2000]

Kevsta said[.........not an intercooler apparently my homologation guy said that would mean full engine type testing, emissions, power etc required in Madrid, for several thousand euros. boo.

Hi Kev, a few IT issues going on at the moment so apologies for the late reply. I am using my work laptop at the moment, it is a Panasonic Toughbook, it is fine for running OBD stuff but is getting a bit small screen wise for my aging lamps so I use it as little as possible. My home machine had a heart attack, I did not know you could do that to a WIN 8 VAIO stripped and running WIN 7 64bit! Ah well, another thing to pull apart and fix. So to the car, as I have mentioned the Spanish authorities are a little well, er....behind with the 'mod my ride' thinking, only several thousand euros? Sound like a bargain!

Kevsta said[ ps re the wiring / rev sensor.. havent found any signs of that, must have been removed. i could understand splicing into the rev light feed to operate something when you go into reverse, but this (feed) was actually cut and taped up, and then bulb then supposed to be powered by ..... instead? seriously cant work out what was supposed to be going on there at all

also think it must have had spotlights on it as there is a relay still spliced into the r/h high beam feed which still clicks when operated, but has no main feed in, or out to the spots any more.

The reversing sensor was removed before Dave had the car IIRC? I also do not remember there being spotlights on there either.

Kevsta said[ Dave wrt to your electric fan setup, were you suffering cooling issues previously with the viscous? or did you just decide it could be better? Although I like the idea I am kinda loathe to replace a very failsafe type mechanical system for electrics that can fail (fuses relays wiring etc) much easier at any point?

given the reliability of these cars in general I would have to think mr Toyota knew what he was doing and the mechnical viscous system is up to the job if in good condition? I would be more up for adding an extra fan, pushing, from the other side or something, than scrapping the mech system all together

your thoughts please?


No problem at all with the original cooling system Kev, as you say Mr T got 'most' things right with this edition but he did fall short here and there. I got snarled up in some floods awhile back before the earthquake in Murcia, the mud was mega and the fan throwing everything around the engine bay made a real bad mess. Whilst I am still testing ATM,other than having the ability to switch the fan off in deep water, there does appear to be some other benefits. Whilst economy is hardly at the highest of my list I guess the electric option is worth a couple of MPG? The real gain will be if caught in traffic with the A/C on. The stock viscous fan does not pull enough air through the condenser and the radiator to make the A/C really cold. Don't get me wrong in the UK it would not be an issue but here in Spain whilst it is sufficient I would like to try and improve it. The fact the Mr T offers the option of an additional pusher fan in hot climates at least acknowledges there is room for improvement.

I am unsure how much cooler the A/C will be (if any) I am going to gain. Despite the wiring being arranged that the fan comes in at it's highest speed and have faith this moves way more air than the stock option even when the VC was tied up, i.e. the fan was at engine speed but, you have to remember the stock shroud encompasses the entire radiator and condenser width, the electric version I am using leaves a small portion of the radiator/condenser not being subjected to the air flow from the electric fitment. I could of course fit the fan into a larger shroud, this is just another option. As I always believe in real world testing and not giving out any BS, I will be the first to state if it is any good or not, and would soon go back to the OE fitment.

By coincidence I have some time this weekend so will charge the A/C system and get some figures with the thermo gun. It will also give me the chance to see if the system is more efficient using the compressor or the trinary switch to run the fan. I had the LED's all wired up and hidden beneath a couple of layers of smoked Perspex, looked the dog's dangly bits. You could not see the LED's unless one of them lit up, that was until some stupid pratt touched the Perspex with wet 'Super Glue' on his fingers and made it look crap so it has to be done again!

I will update this thread Sunday evening, Saturday evening is football which I do not like but will be chauffeuring the lads down to the local bar to cheer on the Spanish team whoever that is.....woohoo.....er um.
And of course the Grand Prix which I do like is on Sunday so I do nothing except watch that.

Watch this space

regards

Dave

PS, anyone know how to get Super Glue off, my typing is bad enough without having my fingers stuck together!!

 

[Dave 2000]

Well here is the heads up on the A/C effectiveness with the electric fan that many have been waiting on. IT IS BRILLIANT!!

I started off with a full vacuum of the system and then with the re-gas and oil, then tied in the second speed of the fan direct to the positive of one of the vehicle batteries, this gave me a steady air flow threw the condenser/radiator and allowed me to set the gas pressures to 15 BAR on the hot side, with the fan constantly on and at A/C idle speed (650 rpm) the cold pressure settled at 1.5 BAR.

I then connected the fan to the compressor feed so it went on and off with the compressor and here was my first surprise, the pressure switch in the A/C line is supposed to detect excessive high and low pressures. If the pressure is low then the compressor clutch will not engage thus protecting the compressor internals from damage. If the pressure is too high then this too can cause a whole host of problems from a serious leak or even a burst condenser or matrix, in my experience the usual thing to happen is the compressor jams and the belt driving it burns up and breaks. I found the pressure switch was nicely in balance with the available airflow, with my previous mechanical fan I found when sitting in traffic the compressor would continually switch in and out as the system pressure climbed with the pressure build, a few seconds later the compressor would again engage as the mechanical fan brought down the pressure, with my present electrical fan running all the time the airflow exceeds that of the mechanical fan at idle, to be fair this was to be expected, the result is the compressor does not cycle on and off, temperature in the workshop was 26 degrees C (78.8 F), the temp on the air intake was a seriously cool 5 degrees C (41.0 F)! NOTE: This was not on 'recirc' so is a genuine reduction, 'recirc' does lower the temp but should be used for short term only and I wanted real world figures.

So, now I am off down the road to see if the fan cuts out when moving at speeds and the answer is yes, the flow of air over the condenser is enough to lower the pressure so the trinary switch moves to the lower point and shuts down the compressor, and of course the fan but, as the compressor re-engages of course the fan cuts in but is not actually needed, this would not have been a problem if my replacement gearbox had the 5th gear switch position, I would have used that to cut the supply to the fan once top gear was reached. Outside temps shown as 30 degrees C (86.0 F), inside vents blowing at 4 degrees C (39.2

Back to the workshop and move the feed to the spare terminals on the trinary switch, I have not seen many switches with 4 terminals two or three being the norm. So I connected one side of the switch to battery positive and the other to the fan relay feed, started the engine and noted straight away the fan was not on, I was just about to check over my temporary connections when the fan started up. It then cycled on an off as expected, it would cut in just when you expect the compressor to disengage due to the heat build up. I tried disconnecting the high speed and running the slow speed of the fan and found the compressor would engage on and off similar to the mechanical fan, I would actually go so far to say the slow speed of the electric fan provided air flow at least matching if not exceeding the stock mechanical offering. I would add that this is speculation but consider the electric fan is similar in diameter and pitch and is not spinning at a lowly 600- 650 rpm but around 3000 rpm on slow?

Out on to the open road and the fan stays off (I have fan status LED's now), the A/C compressor cycling on and off in the normal fashion, the fan high speed kicks in almost a soon as I pull up, I am as pleased as punch about this, the medium setting of the switch suiting the compressor cycle almost perfectly. I then get to thinking is this a coincidence? Scott Justusson (Sumotoy) with his ABC of cooling threads (4 parts IIRC?)

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/abcs-of-80s-a-c-and-cooling-part-1.101703/

He mentioned the extra terminals on the stock 80 trinary switch, and if memory serves he surmised the switch could be used to trigger the auxiliary pusher fan, this was fitted as standard on vehicles destined for hotter climates. I think it would be a safe bet if the stock mechanical was not pulling enough air at idle the switch brings in the electric fan, given my comments above as to the comparison of the stock fans airflow at idle versus my electric fan on it's first speed this adds credence to Scott's theory, so kudos to him for doing the research.

Temps are expected to be 34- 35 degrees C (91.4 F) by next week and the hot months of July and August are not far away, keep you updated.

FWIW, I have wiring diagrams for all of my mods although they are 'scruffy' they do actually work, I have no intention of selling the car but record this stuff in case I do, nothing worse than a new owner being faced with some worthwhile mods but not being able to figure them out if there is an issue. If anyone has any questions or wants a copy feel free to give me a shout.

So, there is a football final on tonight....woohoo, I was going to look for some paint that was drying which I would have found more interesting but, I am the designated driver but hey, free diet coke and a meal!

Have a good weekend,

regards

Dave

 

[Dave 2000]

Spent plenty of time driving around the town today, as there is a holiday this coming week the Spanish are doing a 'puente' or 'bridge'. The holiday is actually next Tuesday but many shops and businesses closed down Friday afternoon and people start to flock to the coast, it does not take long for our little coastal village to be overwhelmed. Most places will close through to Wednesday and then normality will return by about Friday........just in time to wind down in readiness for the weekend, this is the side of Spain that took awhile to get used too but, you can see why they live long lives and enjoy holidays to the full......great stuff! On purpose I drove into town just to grab some atmosphere as the Fiesta starts to build up, 33 degrees C (91.4 F), A/C breezing in at a chilly 5 degrees C (41.0 F)...brrrrrr!

Watching the dash indicators, the fan second speed came in and out as expected and this of course keeps the engine cool, the alternator not flinching at the increased load so I was super happy about that and headed for home. I had turned off the A/C just a few hundred yards before going down into the underground car park so there was some heat still in the condenser, during the usual manoeuvring in this relatively cool area the slow speed of the fan came on, I have seen this before and it took a few seconds to go off, as I switched off the ignition (fan relays being ignition supplied) I expected the fan to run and sure enough after waiting for about a minute the slow speed kicked on.

It took quite awhile to go off, with the engine not running there is no coolant circulation, the fan run for around two minutes, during this time I was very aware of the heat soak coming from under the car. After it stopped I waited to see if the fan came on again, after about three minutes I locked up and left the garage. So, if I had parked outside in the heat, then I have no doubt the fan would have been on longer and there is of course the distinct possibility that it may have come on again a few minutes later. At the moment this cannot happen with the ignition off, if the fan relay coil supply had been wired direct to the battery then this could impose a considerable drain on the battery reserves, the fan drawing around 25 amps on slow speed. Remember this is happening before the July/August temperatures which often hit 40+ degrees C (104.0 F)!

The battery drain is not really an issue IMO, the solar panel feeds a steady charge during daylight, the battery controller separates the batteries if the draw drops below a certain threshold thus protecting the starter battery. My main concern is other components under the bonnet, pipework/electrics/plastic components and so forth, the mechanical fan supplies a steady flow of cool air and even if cooling is not needed the fan must provide useful circulation. I have seen the vents many have fitted and considered them on the 'look' alone, no doubt they will release heat but for the moment they can wait, that is in effect dealing with the symptoms but not the cause, I want the electric fan system to work without resorting to cutting holes in the bonnet.

The first and most obvious thing to do is to change the first speed fan switch to a lower temperature rating, this would stop the engine getting to that temperature in the first place, unfortunately that is not as easy as it sounds. My choice to use the lower radiator hose for the switch tube is giving me grief, fan switches are typically used in the upper hose/engine/radiator position where the coolant is hotter, the range of temperatures available is vast but, temps in the lower settings are very scarce in fact I have yet to find one with a 'ON' setting of 80 degrees C. I presently have an 85 'ON' in there but remember the thermostat opens at 76 degrees C, so it goes against 'normal' thinking that the engine should have an 80 degree switch? My concern is that the fan may come on in traffic but not go off when up to speed as the coolant will still be flowing above the 75 C shut off point. I can fit a timed relay that runs the fan when the ignition is switched off perhaps two minutes, this would solve the under bonnet heat soak. That still gives me 'in traffic' temps that are a little on the high side for me when the A/C is not on.

Options are:

1) Find alternative ways of bringing in the fans.

I am not keen on electronics and even less keen on the adjustable fan controllers that shove a probe between the fins of the radiator, or the bulb types that slip in under the top hose.

2) Move the switch tube to the top hose.

This would be difficult, the tube on the diesel is not very long and is essentially curved from the engine to the radiator. The small straight area was going to be used for my lost coolant sensor and I an loath to lose that option.

3) Fit switches in the cylinder head/block.

Unfortunately there does not appear to be any areas that are exposed to the water jacket that are 'plugged' and I am certainly not keen on drilling any. There 'may' be a possibility to perhaps drill the housing that connects the head to the top hose, this is to be investigated.

So to summarise: So far I am pleased with the results, to date no real engine temperature concerns and the fan choice seems to be the right one, for the time being I will maintain the search for a lower temperature switch which is my first preference. The heat soak I doubt it is a 'real' problem but I am trying to mimic under bonnet conditions as near as stock as is practicable, thanks for those that follow and 'like' this thread, I do try to keep my spelling and grammar in check to make it as easy to read as possible, I will continue with this project until I am satisfied it is reliable and above all works!

watch this space.

regards

Dave


EDIT: I have found a place that 'was' selling a lower temperature switch (ON @ 80 C) in Australia but they are out of stock and of course it may not switch off as per my comments above, I have asked for them to email me when they get more stock, so the switches are out there, it is just finding them!

 

[Dave 2000]

Spent the morning on a boat tuning a SB Chevy engine, I just know you guys across the pond love those right? So having spent most of the time hanging upside down in the bilge changing plugs/leads and so forth along with the gentle sway where the boat was parked....oops sorry..moored, I did not feel like doing much else today so went home.

After lunch I decided to use the expected afternoon high temp of 32 degrees C (89.6 F) to do some more experimenting with the A/C pressures and fan temps. I went for a higher pressure and loaded some more refrigerant in with a drop of oil. I pushed gently and slowly took the high pressure (running) to 16 Bar, with the electric cooling fan flat out and the internal blower doing the same I saw a line pressure drop on the low side to two bar, the system was at saturation point and although the expansion valve did not protest, I guessed I was not going to better this. At this point I would ask you to note that I was using a manual re-gas machine. The more modern one's simply have you put in the vehicle details and press 'go' and it does everything for you but, the settings always work on the lower side of max. This manual machine allows you to pretty much blow up your A/C system if you get silly. Unless you know what you are doing then have a professional work on your car and do NOT follow my lead.

The result of this experiment was good....no it was fantastic! Temperature this afternoon hit 33 degrees C (91.4 F), with the car outside of the workshop and with NO re-circ I recorded -2 degrees C (28.4 F)! In theory this is impossible as the evaporator would start to ice up, it is also possible the evaporator was in the throes of icing up? I used a second thermo sensor and this recorded 0 degrees C (32 F) so two sensors and I am happy to say it is cold in the car in fact, uncomfortably cold!

I pulled into a petrol station and left it idling while I popped into the shop, now in Spain pretty much every car has A/C but I suppose the height of the LC allowed people to see underneath, the amount of water (condense) pouring out had to be seen to be believed, no less than two people pointed it during the few moments I was in the shop.

It is a fair bet that Mr T made the system very efficient based on the fact the car was designed to carry eight people, with my electric cooling fan clearly more effective at cooling the condenser I would have to say this area of the modification is a complete success. Whilst doing the various tests I found that whilst stationary out in the sun the cooling fan kicked in around every 20 seconds, run for around 10 seconds, in the underground garage off for 25 seconds and on for about 5 seconds, rinse and repeat, I have no doubt that fitting the additional Toyota 'pusher' fan will lower your A/C system pressures/temps.

l pulled up after cruising at a steady 50 MPH and pulled the bonnet open and checked the engine temp with the thermo sensor, on the metal outlet connection on the head showed 87 degrees C (188.6 F), bottom hose temp at the switch tube 77 C (170.6), I noted that with no breeze and the outside ambient still at 33 C there is a drop of 10 C (50.0 F) over the radiator core without the fan running. I waited for the electric fan to start up, the switch is marked 85 C (185 F) but the fan came on at an indicated 87 (188.6 F). It would be fair to say the water temp inside is hotter than the exposed metal tube. The indicated temp only dropped by 7 C (44.6 F) before the fan cut out, this was with the bonnet open and took 26 seconds, I closed the bonnet and waited again, eventually the fan came on again and went off at 32 seconds, I would say the thermal heat soak of other engine components was the cause of the extra time taken, again reiterating I doubt that 'hood vents' would help by much, but I may go for them anyway as I like the look.

At the moment I am looking for the cooler 80 C 'ON' switch, if this is not possible then I will be going for an 'after run' relay to overcome the heat soak the under bonnet components are experiencing, this is after shutting the engine down at the moment the fan would be due to come on, as these parts are being subjected to at least 15 C higher than the normal shut down temperature.

Of note, the temperature gauge is quite active during these tests and in fact exaggerate the increase in engine temperatures, this has to be the reason Mr T dumbed down the gauge, it would stop worried owners running to the dealerships every time they drove up a hill, it would also add credence to the fact the mechanical fan does not maintain the engine temperature within as narrow a band most (I include myself) have always assumed it did. As an asides, the new OE temperature sender will be here within the next few days, just to ensure everything is good.

I know my collection and recording of all these numbers is soooo anal but I like to offer as much info/data/stats as possible besides, you don't have to read it.

regards

Dave

 

[kevsta]

hi dave. sounds like good progress.

my pump got stripped last week and was jammed and completely full of hard crusty mud. that is the best description. system was empty but clutch would still engage, press sw must be dud? didnt half squeal lol.

anyway I stripped cleaned and oiled it and its back together and turning, but the reeds were all pretty ****ed. its aircon days are def over but its a sturdy 10cyl lump and i only need 5 or 6 cyl for my compressed air plans, so maybe it can serve as proof of concept for a while.

ps with all your rad and fan testing, do you have any idea of the kinds of return temperatures youre getting from your rad after a good run?

im going to take some accurately in the next week or so, but if I had to guess I would say no more than 40-45 degrees after an hour driving in 30 degree ambient.