another franken turbo thread 2h CT26 (1 Viewer)

[o8ko8k]

Well i took the plunge. I installed a turbo on my 84 HJ60 with the 2h engine.

The goals are:
1. help engine perform and not smoke at altitude. I drive in a very wide variety of altitudes
2. Help engine tow my 1200lb mini-camper up to the mountains
3. keep boost around 8-10 max
4. not blow up the engine
5. not pay hardly anything for the upgrade.

Install conditions are:

0. install setup overview picture ; I decided to rotate the turbo 45 degrees from where folks normally install b/c my AC was in the way and too close to the exhaust or intake (crowded) The 45 out seemed to be a good compromise.


1. I went with the flipped manifold and a homemade flange adaptor. The flange was fully welded from the inside, photos below show tack/fit, i also felt the desiere to peen the cast steel for robustness with my trusty air hammer









2. I Ordered a CT26 17201-68010 (12HT turbo) from ebay store front for a turbo shop in Oakland CA. But a 17201-74010 was delivered (2.0L Celica version) to me instead. Figured this would work too so i went forward with it.
3. I have not yet installed an intercooler
4. I did install a Pyro/boost/temp gauge



5. I installed a blow off valve
6. The unit came with an external waste gate
7. I tapped the oil out from the alternator for the oil feed (turbo is clocked so that the oil can drain at shut off.



8. I tapped the water line pre-heater core and ran that in to. Water comes in the bottom and goes out the bottom.
9. I adjusted the fuel so that i could not exceed 1200F on the pyro worst case.
10. Blow off valve BOV vacuum is tapped into the injection pump vacuum line.
11. wrapped flange adaptors, down pipe with thermal barrier cloth stuff to prevent dumping heat into the engine bay (this is working great). AND wrapped the intake pipes to avoid engine heat bleed into my input air (i dont think this is working).



12. Down pipe outlet was 3" diameter and come to find out my exhaust pipe is only 2" and i currently have it necked down to this diameter.

Results are:
1. I am getting about 2psi at 1500 rpm and max out at about 7-10 PSI at 3000 depending on configuration(s) (UPDATED POST LEAK fixes: 2psi at 1500, 8 at 2100, 12 at 3000)
2. Waste gate adjustments i performed did nothing but lower boost pressure.
3. So the Waste gate is currently wired (almost) shut and the diaphragm is removed. Small play in wire to allow 1mm gap or less in gate results in a max of about 7 PSI with a normal conditions max boost of 5psi (FIXED)
4. Blow off valve BOV does not appear to do anything. I suspect vacuum isn’t enough to make it open.
5. No smoke at the tail
6. Decent performance increase (i did not dyno this b4 or after).
7. unsure of mileage change (originally 17mpg round town), too early to check, too many variables changing yet to measure


Notes / Watch items:
1. Im worried i bought a poor quality turbo, checked shaft play, prior to install and it had zero radial movement, and slight axial movement
2. called a turbo shop down here in Arizona and the guy said: "if it makes boost, your past the danger zone" he did sound very amused at my story tho. Guess not too many 2h land cruiser in these parts
3. Im still concerned about surge. Not sure if im making enough boost for that to be relevant or what, still fiddling with the BOV
4. Im not too concerned about the waste gate as i seem to struggle to get the unit to make boost vs too much boost, so a mechanism to back off the boost seems to be a non-issue at the moment.
5. After documenting all this, i think i left the boost hole open on the turbo when i ripped off the waste gate diaphram (oops!) better check on that later.
6. I still need to snap some photos to go with these numbers.
7. Im noticing more pronounced engine noise: (lifters, exhaust chuggs / charges, top end head noise) I suspect two things; a) manifold flip makes it so i can hear that better than b4. b) i need to retard the timing a bit as i may be hearing predetonation pinging?

Goals status:
1. help engine perform and not smoke at altitude. I drive in a very wide variety of altitudes (ACCEPTED)
2. Help engine tow my 1200lb mini-camper up to the mountains (PUlls 6% grade in 5th 1800rpm no trailer)
3. keep boost around 8-10 max (COMPLETE)
4. not blow up the engine (So far so good, too soon to tell)
5. not pay hardly anything for the upgrade. (price tag sitting at just under 600$ including wasted material)
6. BONUS Fuel economy went up from 16mpg to 18mpg I am attributing this to a more complete burn and more efficent combustion at 7000ft

more pics:

 

[blis]

Errmm... why install BOV in a diesel?

 

[o8ko8k]

Errmm... why install BOV in a diesel?

2h diesels are throttled with a butterfly valve and the Injection pump works off vacuum (a true oddity in the diesel realm but a reality none-the-less).

There has been some debate on if the pressure wave from the throttle snapping closed (when shifting ect) could send the turbo into surge or not (e.g. inducer turbine fights the exducer turbine).

I decided on installing one. Yet i dont think its working yet.

 

[langsen]

This looks pretty cool. I'm planning on something similar when it's not so hot out.

7. I tapped the oil out from the alternator for the oil feed (turbo is clocked so that the oil can drain at shut off.

The turbo oil feed is coming from before the vacuum pump, right? Where does the turbo drain to, the side cover or the oil pan?

Is the vacuum hose that's connected to your BOV the same one that connects from the throttle body to the governor? Does the hose meet the throttle body before or after the throttle plate? I assume after but just want to make sure.

Did you adjust your valves yet?

 

[o8ko8k]

This looks pretty cool. I'm planning on something similar when it's not so hot out.



The turbo oil feed is coming from before the vacuum pump, right? Where does the turbo drain to, the side cover or the oil pan?

Is the vacuum hose that's connected to your BOV the same one that connects from the throttle body to the governor? Does the hose meet the throttle body before or after the throttle plate? I assume after but just want to make sure.

Did you adjust your valves yet?

Question1: The oil drains in the same place the vacuum pump did. there is an "IN" and an "OUT" oil line on the vacuum pump. i simply put the turbo oiler in series AFTER the vacuum pump. Honestly i never understood the additional effort of making a bung for the return so i didnt make one. B4 i ran the turbo, i hooked up my oil lines, started the engine and watched it flow out into a bucket, whatched more flow as a increased throttle, then I checked the return line for blockage so im pretty sure all is well on oil flow. /me shruggs

Question2: yes that was a "T" connector from a vacuum connector variety pack from the autoparts store. Ill post a photo shortly. Yes the "T" connector splices the hose from throttle body to the governer. (UPDATE: i heard the blow off valve today when shifting from 1st to 2nd gear! so it does work in some capacity!

Comment: I highly agree on waiting for it to cool down. I have been sweating, myserable, hot, and generally irritated with picking the dead of summer to do this. temps have hung in the 110s the whole time i was out there.

 

[Hulsty]

IMO you need to get your wastegate working properly because "I am getting about 2psi at 1500 rpm and max out at about 7-10 PSI at 3000" is terrible performance. I am not sure how the turbo sizing works but if it is the same as a 12HT you would expect something like 10psi by 2000rpm and have heaps more low end torque for towing.

 

[o8ko8k]

IMO you need to get your wastegate working properly because "I am getting about 2psi at 1500 rpm and max out at about 7-10 PSI at 3000" is terrible performance. I am not sure how the turbo sizing works but if it is the same as a 12HT you would expect something like 10psi by 2000rpm and have heaps more low end torque for towing.

i couldnt agree more. Boost is complete poo right now. but i fail to see how the waste gate plays into it if i have it deactivated and wired shut. Waste gates bleed boost they dont promote boost. I was thinking of looking elsewhere for my low boost issue like upp'ing the fueling, which i really havent done yet, or attacking the exhaust tube size. (AND) getting the waste gate on track for when i do get boost back to what i would expect.

Unless my turbo is some kinda mut and isnt really for a 2.0 celica and just isnt the right air pump for the job

 

[Hulsty]

Your post above says the wastegate is wired to allow 1mm movement, this wont help build boost.

 

[o8ko8k]

doh, that's right I forgot I did that, too many details swimming in my head. maybe its time for a break. its friggin hot out there too! =)

 

[gerg]

1mm play is enough to screw your boost up alot. I would take it out and weld it shut with performance like that, or put some kind of turn buckle thingy to clamp the crap out of it. Ebay specials are known for leaky wastegates so welding would be prefered. If you are making 2psi at 1500 I too would expect something like 10 at 2000. I would recomend making an adaptor to fit over the intake of your turbo and running pressure from your air compressor into it and checking for leaks. I can tell you for sure you have some. Leaving bolts out and little holes everywhere is absolutely more than what it takes to kill boost. I had clamps loose that I could only feel very slight leaks off of at 20 psi and picked up 5lbs boost just by tightening a few of them down. You have to be meticulous to get the best performance. Something like this.


2 inch exhaust is pretty tiny for a 4L motor. I would address that pretty soon as it too will essentially choke your engine as well as your turbo will not spool properly. Your truck is now creating a larger volume of exhaust than before.

Your turbo drain needs to drain to your oil pan in order to allow it absolutely no restriction in return flow. For example, putting the bung on the oil pan below the level of the oil is enough to cause it to back up the drain hose and pressurize the turbo center section so that it pushes oil into the intake causing the engine to burn it. Turbos are designed to run zero pressure in the center secion and flow effortlessly out of it. Your return with the vacume pump will not work for long for you. I would put that on the list of fixes.

You cant surge your compressor if its not boosting. If you do get boost down low... who knows. Ive never even heard of anyone with a map for any ct26s so good luck mapping it for surge.

Surge is not about your " inducer turbine fights the exducer turbine" What ever that means. That one is a first ive heard of for explaning surge by the way... good on ya for creativity. Its simply your compressor shoving more air into your motor/ charge pipe than the map will allow for causing a shock wave to return to the compressor. This wave will eventually lead to damage. It is almost always audable when I have head it, which is rare and I run 25psi on the throttled 3B. I think I heard it once or twice when I let off the throttle abruptly at 3500 rpm full boost.... maybe.

Predetonation pinging? If your timing was too advanced before then its still is now. Do not screw with your pump timing yourself unless you are very certain of what you are doing. If you are able to actually hear predetonation on a diesel then I would say you have for sure damaged your engine. You might bennifit from having your pump professionally timed as most average joes cant do it properly.

You should adjust your valves if they havent been done for a while turbo or not. These valve trains are the equivalent of drum brakes.

I personally find that the tune is much harder than the build.

Later
g

 

[o8ko8k]

thanks for the info!

I didn't realize how sensitive boost was to minute leaks. this gives me a great point of departure from my previous attempts.

inducer / exducer are terms garret uses for the exhaust and blower turbines IIRC. and yes, what do you think that shock wave does exactly once you have pressure pushing back on the intake side of the turbo? i was only left to imagine that the intake turbine is pushing against the exhaust turbine like a reverse boost. this torques the shaft and hurts the bearings just like you said, and I suspect the turbine cavitates and makes some pretty interesting noise, the likes I have no experience hearing mind you. That is how I perceived it in my minds eye anyways, ive never been accused of being creative tho...

not unless I was alone or with somebody anyways =D



zero oil pressure... its all starting to make sense now... welded bung it in the pushrod cover it is, this wont take but an hour or so...

 

[mudgudgeon]

Inducer/exducer refer to parts/section/dimension of both the turbine and compressor, I think.you are confused by these terms.

I'd agree about sorting all leaks first.

Then post some more results including pyro temps. Boost is a product of fuel burn and the resultant gases and heat. Boost can be limited by a lack of fuel. High pyro temps suggest too much fuel.

But sort out the basics first.

 

[o8ko8k]

Inducer/exducer refer to parts/section/dimension of both the turbine and compressor, I think.you are confused by these terms.

I'd agree about sorting all leaks first.

Then post some more results including pyro temps. Boost is a product of fuel burn and the resultant gases and heat. Boost can be limited by a lack of fuel. High pyro temps suggest too much fuel.

But sort out the basics first.

Ya, a gathered from yalls amusement that i had made a few mistakes in language :whoops: All the same... live and learn...

Well i plugged some holes, modified the waste gate to stay shut, and my "real" silicon joints finaly came in the mail last night so i replaced my home depot rubber joints with the blue ones shown in photo above.

Let this be a lesson to anyone tempted to cheese out and use rubber gaskets, well in my case anyways, they were leaky.

On my way to work this morning i was getting a solid 8psi at 2100 RPM and 12psi at 3000 RPM. Nice... Pyro was hitting about 1000F where b4 with the leaks (7psi max boost) i could push really hard and get about 1250F. Mind you i didnt mess with the fuel screw yet. AND... the pull was way closer to what i would expect from a turbo boost. i found my self in top gear b4 i even knew it.

I have yet to weld the bung for lowering the turbo oil pressure to zero for sure. I inspected the turbo housing last night just as predicted by greg, I did find a slight bit of oil leakage (a few bits of greesy spots), but nothing that alarmed me, but some times ignorance is bliss maybe i should be alarmed? Hope i havent ruined my seals.

also, the shaft play was still in good shape... i like to check on that "EVERY" time i get in there <paranoid>

Anyways thanks for all the advice, this has proven valuable and has yeilded great results.

So going fwd:
1. Drop the oil pressure in the turbo (weld the bung) Top priority.
2. Adjust / check valve clearneces like so: https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/535032-2h-valve-clearance-adjustment.html
3. Fix my glow plug relay (not related)
4. Work the crusty radiator hoses some more (not entirely related)
5. Work on the input air temp sensor
x. Open the exhaust a bit
x. Consider more fueling
x. Monitor fuel economy
x. Seal more rust holes in body (not related)
x. Valve seal job reference: https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tec...5313-3b-valve-stem-seal-replacement-pics.html
x. head trouble reference: https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tech-24-volts-systems/582116-head-assessment.html

 

[Tapage]

looks great .. only thing that can concern me at this point it's the leverage applied to your exhaust manifold / studs / head I would try to make some sort of support for your turbo to help with the load ..

 

[o8ko8k]

looks great .. only thing that can concern me at this point it's the leverage applied to your exhaust manifold / studs / head I would try to make some sort of support for your turbo to help with the load ..

Good Call Tapage!

I lost the bubble on that one when myriad other issues, leaks, etc crept in. Certainly I dont want to forget it. That friggin turbo weighs more than i expected too, i would estimate close to 45lbs.

 

[gerg]

Those look like better numbers. Have fun with your turbo. Dont give into the temptation and boost the crap out of your 2h, It will not take much for long. The pistons are the weak link. Running it intentionally cool like that might actually help witht he ring land problem. Remove your blow off valve as it is not necessary unlaes you drive like a ricer dork and beat the crap out of your engine. For a long time I was going to put one on but never had and issues with surge from the throttle plate.

You should still make an adaptor for your turbo and pressurize your intake and check for leaks. I used this little thing that looked like rope that is designed to smolder so you can find leaks by outets and stuff in your house, you just watch for where the smoke is disrupted. Its way way easier than listening. You can see leaks you cant even feel with your fingers. I can almost guarantee your throttle plate housing is leaking. I went to great lengths to seal mine and was only partially successful. It leaks along the pivot pin where it enters the housing.

 

[o8ko8k]

Those look like better numbers. Have fun with your turbo. Dont give into the temptation and boost the **** out of your 2h, It will not take much for long. The pistons are the weak link. Running it intentionally cool like that might actually help witht he ring land problem. Remove your blow off valve as it is not necessary unlaes you drive like a ricer dork and beat the **** out of your engine. For a long time I was going to put one on but never had and issues with surge from the throttle plate.

You should still make an adaptor for your turbo and pressurize your intake and check for leaks. I used this little thing that looked like rope that is designed to smolder so you can find leaks by outets and stuff in your house, you just watch for where the smoke is disrupted. Its way way easier than listening. You can see leaks you cant even feel with your fingers. I can almost guarantee your throttle plate housing is leaking. I went to great lengths to seal mine and was only partially successful. It leaks along the pivot pin where it enters the housing.

Thankyou i had not suspected the throttle plate housing at all....

 

[o8ko8k]

Well i ended up cranking up the fuel about 1.75 - 2 turns and now i get a nice "fart" of black smoke for a second, then the turbo kicks in, EGTs rocket to about 1000 - 1100 or so and imm off to the races!

I reworked the pipe last night, pluged a few welds that had some minor leaks per greg's suggestion and will test that out today.

ALso, i welded the bung on one of the lifter covers. the gasket was toast so i used RTV. I hope this works. I left it all night so it wouldnt get messed up and get in the engine. THis should help get the oil pressure in the turbo next to zero.

Does that alternator line back to the block feed anything or is it just a return? Right now i have it plugged.

ALSO, i think the extra engine head noise im getting is coming from the increased pressure blowing into the head or somthing. What are the liabilities of a turbo on the head? I was thinking the valve seals, valves not completly shutting from the valve adjustment i havent done yet, and the CCV crank case vent. Right now i have a slobber tube setup for the vent in the head cover.

<<<<UPDATE>>>>>
I think i found my engine noise. CYL1 exhaust manifold gasket is leaking a tad! Im finding some soot on the engine block in that general area. Im probably just hearing the engine puff and valve moving up and down through the leak. I tried to reuse the old gaskets but they were in pretty cruddy shape...

THanks,

 

[Tapage]

vac pump oil line .. are just for it ..

 

[o8ko8k]

vac pump oil line .. are just for it ..

excellent! thanks Tapage!!!