Using thicker oil, using different gas and Hard start troubleshooting

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I still may call when I get up to the truck again...had to ship the truck. It made it fine and the transport guy was from Africa and said he had no problems.
 
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Had to get new account because old email is locked out...however this never got resolved. I am able to start though after a few times using the hold the 30 second peddle down and wait a few minutes.

Every once in a while I get the fast churn sound and slightly pull throttle and it will start. I am convinced it has something to do with the vapor canister. Would this be a good thing to try?


Thanks,

M
 

gregnash

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Per the FSM that is part of what you are supposed to do to try and clean out the charcoal canister. If you believe that is part of your issue you can disconnect it all together and see if the truck will start. Mainly the canister is there to absorb the fuel vapor coming from the tank from the tank being somewhat pressurized. This is to avoid fuel vapor gathering in the engine compartment as the charcoal absorbs it, eventually the charcoal get saturated and can no longer hold any.

There is something else going on that is causing this issue. Have you gone through the different troubleshooting spots in the FSM? When was the carb last tuned?
 
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I have never tuned the carb (This is Bedford BTW - I had to get new account). I would think that would need some expertise and so far I haven't found anyone in the Mid-south area that will work on a non-fuel injected truck like this one.

I went and bought the GMC canister and I am hoping to put that in the next few days. I will pull the tubes and see if it helps as you recommend first. I also intend on changing out plugs. I have changed out fuel filter, got rid of a FRAM oil filter and got a WIX XP (huge difference). I also discovered my alternator bolt was missing and replaced it.

I am convinced it will turn out to be either the Vapor canister or the Fuel pump.

I love this truck but I sure do hate sitting for 15-30 minutes in the morning. Any advice is welcome!
 

gregnash

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I looked around lightly and could not find anyone with a similar issue. If there is on please let me know.

Here is what is happening:

Sometime back on my 1986 FJ60 I noticed some oil leaking in the rear main so after reading up on it and speaking to some folks I decided to try the thickest oil I could get. I used 20w50 synthetic oil. When I did this it started strangely and after a week I dumped the oil and went to a Synthetic 10w30. It drops a little oil but it runs fine. The unpleasant sound from the start up went away and everything ran great (any advice on this would be great too).

Several months later I went to cheap gas station with lower quality gas and almost immediately the FJ60 started having trouble starting. I ran through that tank and went back to good gas (I always use techtron too) plus another oil change and it lightened up the start but it is still a problem on cold starts.

When I start the cruiser I pull the choke and pump twice on gas pedal. If it does not start I then wait 2-3 minutes and it starts right up. If I touch the pedal at all more than twice it prolongs the process. I have gone 5-6 tries before it works.

At this point I can not tell if I am flooding the vehicle or if it isn't getting enough gas. I am confused. Should I stop the techtron? Am I using the wrong oil for a 2F engine? For a while I had this cruiser running tip top and I want to get it back that way and I refuse to go to mechanic if it is something I can do.
Ok dude I am going to respond to your original post.

Seems like there could be a few variables that need a bit of explaining...
1. How many miles on the engine?
2. Maintenance history?
3. Any modifications to the engine? (e.g. weber carb, desmogged, etc.)
4. You talk about "cold" mornings? What is this temp?
5. Other maintenance that has been done recently beside the standard oil change?

What I am getting at is there is something going on that seemed to have started with the bad/cheap fuel back when and then the cold seems to exacerbates it. Look in my sig line for the FSMs if you don't have them and start going through the starting troubleshooting areas.. I would recommend running some Seafoam in your tank as well as Seafoaming you carb (instructions and videos can be found online).

Now as to the "cold" morning start procedure this can vary a lot depending on different variables like; how cold it is when starting. In my area it regularly gets down to the teens at night during the winter. My procedure in the morning when the truck has been sitting all night is to;
1. pull choke completely out
2. pump pedal SLOWLY, 5-7 times
3. hit ignition
This normally starts the truck up right away but should it not, I give the pedal a couple more (no more than that) slow pumps and then she usually starts right up.

Things you may want to dive into is to pull the carb and rebuild, ensure that when you are pulling the choke that the choke plates are properly closing the carb off and ensure that there is fuel in the carb bowl (can see through the little window. From there you may need to delve a little deeper into things like the carb rebuild, valve adjustments, searching for vacuum leaks or possible bad fuel pump. Look in the FSM and run the oil it recommends for the weather ranges you are in. I used to run 15w40 diesel oil in the winter (Rotella T) but found it would have a hard time starting on those colder mornings. So for the winter months I switch to the 10w30 variant and spring/summer/fall I do 15w40.

Hope that helps and sorry for the wall of text.
 
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The 2F engine has around 45k miles on it. The Chassis has around 190k on it. When I bought the truck none of these issues persisted. It was "maintained" by a mechanic. I have a thick folder with all work done to it by 4 owners since it was new. Other than what I have already written I have put bigger tires on it and changed out air filter (huge improvements). It should be noted that the old owner did not drive this truck very far and it had cooling issues which I was able to resolve by finding a tube leak. It also leaks oil out the rear main.

I agree with you that this absolutely has something to do with me putting in thicker oil and then the bad gas. It also has something to do with the canister too. All these issues happened around the same time. The thicker oil started the "hair drier" sound that comes from either the canister or fuel pump. The low quality gas caused the cold start issue.

It gets down to 30's here but the starting issue was happening in Florida too at higher temps.

I will definitely get the FSM and look through it. Dropbox is blocked at work so I will have to do that from your link at home. Thank you for the advice!
 

studawg

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You running pure gasoline or something with ethanol in it? Ethanol is not good for carburetors.
 
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You running pure gasoline or something with ethanol in it? Ethanol is not good for carburetors.
I run high test from quality gas stations and I put a cap full of "star tron" in prior to filling the tank. This treatment should take care of ethanol. The Star Tron definitely makes the engine happier. I use it in all my old motors.
 

studawg

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I run high test from quality gas stations and I put a cap full of "star tron" in prior to filling the tank. This treatment should take care of ethanol. The Star Tron definitely makes the engine happier. I use it in all my old motors.
Considering the problems you are having, I'd certainly run pure gas. I would also get a new battery if you haven't yet. And if the motor only has 45k miles on it, I wouldn't run anything thicker than 10w-40.
 
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I just wanted to report back that I disconnected tubes from old vapor canister last night. This morning it had no affect. I still had to attempt starting until it flooded (pump and choke method) and then hold the pedal down for 30 seconds....wait another 5 minutes and it started. I did the "hold the pedal down" method twice.
 
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There is only one part of the OEM charcoal canister that can make starting more difficult.

I'm not convinced though that the CC is the cause of the problem.

If the Outer Vent Control Valve that is attached to the OEM canister is stuck in the open position, or its plug is disconnected, starting a cold engine is more difficult.
To be honest, I'm not sure exactly why this is so, as it's only venting to the top of the bowl... but I just know that that's the case.
How to test that valve is described in the emissions FSM.

image.jpeg
 
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Okay from what you are saying above...moving forward with GMC part would be beneficial for cold starts. I was holding off thinking unplugging tubes was the best method at this point.
 
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Test the outer vent control valve to make sure it's working correctly (open when ignition is OFF, closed when ignition is ON)

Or temporarily remove the vent hose from the carb vent pipe and plug the pipe (red arrow). Then test starting.

image.jpeg
 
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I bought the new canister so I may as well put it in and try that...I would think that would accomplish the above?....I am going to try new plugs first though. If neither of these things help I am going to put on my overalls and attempt to replace fuel pump on my own. I will check back once I get any of the above done. Thank you for your advice and help!
 

Silver City Cruiser

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There is only one part of the OEM charcoal canister that can make starting more difficult.

I'm not convinced though that the CC is the cause of the problem.

If the Outer Vent Control Valve that is attached to the OEM canister is stuck in the open position, or its plug is disconnected, starting a cold engine is more difficult.
To be honest, I'm not sure exactly why this is so, as it's only venting to the top of the bowl... but I just know that that's the case.
How to test that valve is described in the emissions FSM.

View attachment 1187531
Air pressure above the fuel in the bowl is calculated and vented through the tubes into the venturi opening. Remember air pressure pushes fuel into the carburetor. Altering this may change flow rates to the accelerator venturi below. But I agree, this is not likely a CC problem.
 
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It turns out that the tubes that go to the vapor canister are pretty important. The one that leads back over to the driver side needs to be capped or it can create issues starting. After going through this for 4 months, my starter finally died Saturday morning but would work after a thump. I went and got new starter and while I was at it I put a screw in hose. This morning in the frost it started right up. Thanks for the information everyone. This problem is resolved.

Can anyone think of a reason to put a vapor canister back in place? I have the GMC one now but was pretty happy with performance this morning. I guess the tube not being open when off could cause issues later?

Thank you Output shaft and Silver City Cruiser for the help. The capping the tube nailed the issue. I guess my old canister somehow did not block port when the tubes were switched? Leaving them off did not help either.

I guess the next project will be figuring out how to mount and install the GMC canister or clean out and rebuild the old one.
 
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Good to hear!

If you're going to cap off the float bowl vent pipe, you've got to make sure that the distributor venting VCV (clipped under the passenger's side of the air cleaner housing) is working correctly and that the venting plumbing for the distributor is correct and working properly. Otherwise you run the risk of blowing up the distributor cap.

The purpose of the float bowl vent was an emissions requirement to direct evaporating fuel in the bowl to the char canister. But it also serves a dual function of preventing the fuel vapors from ending up inside the air cleaner housing and migrating back down the distributor vent hose...to collect in the distributor.
 
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yikes on that! Hopefully that takes a while?....So I guess its time to drill a hole in the bottom of GMC canister and then figure out where each tube goes. I am sure there is a thread somewhere explaining it in detail.
 
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