Okay, Now I'm Completely Convinced: ALL Original HG's Are Actively Failing!

[spartan]

There are certain things that the general public will acknowledge and stuff that they will not. It would be easier to point out that a vehicle needs a front axle job - " Look at all that grease. " than to try and point out a problem they can't see. Show the seller the bleeding wound - not the cancer.

 

[bjowett]

The studs have a provision in the top for an allen key to be inserted. set the gasket, drop the head down on, insert all the studs until they bottom, done.

The factory bolts would be adequate IF there wasn't so much heat back at number 6. From what I can gather, this heat is expanding the alloy head past the limit of TTY bolts, they then lose clamping ability... ouila, blown gasket.

Please do stir things up further... I may be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.. or the last.

 

[smokethedog]

Where is Robbie located? Phone Number?

 

[SUMOTOY]

Head Studs

The studs have a provision in the top for an allen key to be inserted. set the gasket, drop the head down on, insert all the studs until they bottom, done.

The factory bolts would be adequate IF there wasn't so much heat back at number 6. From what I can gather, this heat is expanding the alloy head past the limit of TTY bolts, they then lose clamping ability... ouila, blown gasket.

Please do stir things up further... I may be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.. or the last.

I don't buy it (oh man here we go). I use factory bolts on every head I put on a machine, unless a customer insists. The downside to using a 'stronger' headbolt (read ARP etc) is that it is stronger. Sound silly? Look, head gaskets appear to last a good long time, 180k in my *known issue* turbo 4 runner. Fiber headgasket even. Double the boost, tandem axle trailer a lot of the time behind it.

Yes, I've gotten into some interesting email exchanges with the boys at ARP on another list, then took it off list. I could never get 'data' from these guys, but I got a LOT of testimonial references. I was looking for comparisons of boost, mileage, other variables vs *HEAD BOLT* failure. I don't think many head bolts fail, I think a lot of fiber gaskets do over time, and the reason most manufacturers changed over to metal head gaskets.

I also firmly believe that a head gasket should be considered a fuse. If things get hot enough in your engine, the head gasket should fail. Adding clamping force only means that you will now have a head that wants to lift, and a bolt that doesn't allow it. What happens? An aluminum head can actually compress or severely warp. Yup, those ARP's are *that* 'good'.

The stock head bolts are adequate for the job (I took a trip to 250F 4 times with a SC attached), and if the head gaskets going to blow, let it, you have less carnage with a stock bolt. High mileage old toyotas will pop fiber head gaskets, for a variety of reasons: Cjamges in antifreeze type, poor maintenance, poor oil choice). I have yet to see a *bolt* failure analysis that would cause me to not use a toyota bolt. Spend your time prepping the bolts, the holes, and the surfaces, and spend your money on a good torque wrench and a good head gasket. DOA btw, sells really good headgaskets, btbt. Very few manufacturers make crappy head bolts, no one wants that recall.

I use factory head bolts in audis with 4 times the boost level I run with my supercharged truck. I don't believe any head fastener is going to outperform the stocker in a stock application. I know a lot of race teams use them, and swear by them. I just haven't seen any data that supports the need, only the association. A cople known exceptions (porsche boxer motors for example) so noted, toyota isn't one of them.

Nomex on

Scott Justusson

 

[turbocruiser]

I don't buy it (oh man here we go). I use factory bolts on every head I put on a machine, unless a customer insists. The downside to using a 'stronger' headbolt (read ARP etc) is that it is stronger. Sound silly? Look, head gaskets appear to last a good long time, 180k in my *known issue* turbo 4 runner. Fiber headgasket even. Double the boost, tandem axle trailer a lot of the time behind it.

Yes, I've gotten into some interesting email exchanges with the boys at ARP on another list, then took it off list. I could never get 'data' from these guys, but I got a LOT of testimonial references. I was looking for comparisons of boost, mileage, other variables vs *HEAD BOLT* failure. I don't think many head bolts fail, I think a lot of fiber gaskets do over time, and the reason most manufacturers changed over to metal head gaskets.

I also firmly believe that a head gasket should be considered a fuse. If things get hot enough in your engine, the head gasket should fail. Adding clamping force only means that you will now have a head that wants to lift, and a bolt that doesn't allow it. What happens? An aluminum head can actually compress or severely warp. Yup, those ARP's are *that* 'good'.

The stock head bolts are adequate for the job (I took a trip to 250F 4 times with a SC attached), and if the head gaskets going to blow, let it, you have less carnage with a stock bolt. High mileage old toyotas will pop fiber head gaskets, for a variety of reasons: Cjamges in antifreeze type, poor maintenance, poor oil choice). I have yet to see a *bolt* failure analysis that would cause me to not use a toyota bolt. Spend your time prepping the bolts, the holes, and the surfaces, and spend your money on a good torque wrench and a good head gasket. DOA btw, sells really good headgaskets, btbt. Very few manufacturers make crappy head bolts, no one wants that recall.

I use factory head bolts in audis with 4 times the boost level I run with my supercharged truck. I don't believe any head fastener is going to outperform the stocker in a stock application. I know a lot of race teams use them, and swear by them. I just haven't seen any data that supports the need, only the association. A cople known exceptions (porsche boxer motors for example) so noted, toyota isn't one of them.

Nomex on

Scott Justusson

Very interesting, consider the pot stirred, can someone continue the agitation, this is awesome!!! Thanks Brian and thanks Scott, anyone else??? Very awesome indeed!!!

 

[landtank]

One thing that comcerns me about the studs is the fact that the head needs to slide during warm up. There was an article around that mentioned this. It suggested that when replacing a HG it was very important to protect the mating surfaces from any kind of abration such as cleaning them with a scrunge pad. These small scratches left behind would actually inhibit this sliding effect and could cause premature wear. It went on to say that polishing the surfaces with a fine paper would help this.

Now with the added strength of the studs maybe they to will cause issues with the sliding of the head.

 

[alaskacruiser]

I dont think that the replacements are failing so doing this WILL definitely address one problem, the old original gaskets, but I dont think that the replacements are failing so it wont address any non-existing problems. Plus, then you would want to really mill the head to get that compression back right? JMHO but replacing with the improved design is the way to go IMHO.

turbo- where is the data that the new HGs won't have similar problems? There is only a very small sample size of people with the new, upgraded HGs, and how many of those have 200k mi. on them to prove the new design fixes the problem? I would think the combo metal/Toyota HGs would provide additional insurance, maybe even worth having the head milled to regain stock compression. Please ppl- any more thoughts on the custom metal headgasket sandwiched between 2 factory Toyota HGs?

 

[PDoyle]

Hey, this dosen't hqappen to ALL 80's. My last had 175k no HG problems at all...

 

[powderpig]

That set up (two hg and metal piece) would not work well for a natural aspirated engine. You could not mill the head engouh to conpensate for the thickness of the system. You would hate the power loss, unless you did some turbo system with massive boost.
I installed a HG for a customer in Christo's garage almost 5 years ago on a LX450, I have not heard recently if he has any problems or not. But up to sept of last year he has not had any problems with it and has put on well over 100k miles on it.
The very first HG job I did on a 1fz was on my truck well over 6 years ago (close to 2000), it was the new style HG then. That truck lost the head becasue of the LHH. I intalled a new hg and went well over 120k miles (200k when I went to a HP engine)on it until I replace the engine becasue of piston slap that was getting worse. When I pulled the engine apart the HG was in great shape. My standard procedure for warming up stuff is to allow the engine to warm until the needle starts to move then take off. I only work the engine hard when the engine is fully warm.
So data from toyota will more than likely not be available. Real world data is customers that have had the gasket done and had repete problems. I did not have any at Slee offroad when I was there. You would have to ask Christo about any problems since I left.
Some said there was a HG from Contico(if I remember right), it would be interesting to see it and how well it is made. That is the first reference to a non toyota HG I have seen. I haved looked (but not for almost 2 years), so can not comment on aftermarket sources.
Coolant I have written lots on it and Read the past posts where it is discussed.
Good luck on a choice, may it work for you. later robbie

 

[turbocruiser]

turbo- where is the data that the new HGs won't have similar problems? There is only a very small sample size of people with the new, upgraded HGs, and how many of those have 200k mi. on them to prove the new design fixes the problem? I would think the combo metal/Toyota HGs would provide additional insurance, maybe even worth having the head milled to regain stock compression. Please ppl- any more thoughts on the custom metal headgasket sandwiched between 2 factory Toyota HGs?

Easy fella, all I'm sayin is that the improved design is the improved design. Intuitively if they totally addressed all the things that made the old design fail then I would think that the improved design would last longer than the old design. Again its intuitive but basically I'm willing to bet my money on that. I think the reason we were having a hard time answering your question is for exactly the same thought you present over and over about the improved design; not enough examples out there, not enough data out there, not enough endorsements out there. Why is that fact of life enough to make you resist the improved design which so far is perfectly proven but not enough to make you resist this other totally "experimental" design which so far seems no one out there has tested (at least around here AFAIK)??? Besides where is the custom metal headgasket available at anyway and besides again, if yer skeptical about the improved design HG's why wouldcha want two of em instead of even one?!?!? I'm confused man, not arguing with ya, just confused?!?

 

[turbocruiser]

Hey, this dosen't hqappen to ALL 80's. My last had 175k no HG problems at all...

Not to argue, but how do you know, did you take the thing out without any apparent problems (like on my rig) and find that low and behold nothing was wrong (unlike my rig) or are you simply saying that at 175 there were no apparent problems??? As I really recently learned, those are two different things!

 

[bjowett]

I don't buy it (oh man here we go). I use factory bolts on every head I put on a machine, unless a customer insists. The downside to using a 'stronger' headbolt (read ARP etc) is that it is stronger. Sound silly? Look, head gaskets appear to last a good long time, 180k in my *known issue* turbo 4 runner. Fiber headgasket even. Double the boost, tandem axle trailer a lot of the time behind it.

Yes, I've gotten into some interesting email exchanges with the boys at ARP on another list, then took it off list. I could never get 'data' from these guys, but I got a LOT of testimonial references. I was looking for comparisons of boost, mileage, other variables vs *HEAD BOLT* failure. I don't think many head bolts fail, I think a lot of fiber gaskets do over time, and the reason most manufacturers changed over to metal head gaskets.

I also firmly believe that a head gasket should be considered a fuse. If things get hot enough in your engine, the head gasket should fail. Adding clamping force only means that you will now have a head that wants to lift, and a bolt that doesn't allow it. What happens? An aluminum head can actually compress or severely warp. Yup, those ARP's are *that* 'good'.

The stock head bolts are adequate for the job (I took a trip to 250F 4 times with a SC attached), and if the head gaskets going to blow, let it, you have less carnage with a stock bolt. High mileage old toyotas will pop fiber head gaskets, for a variety of reasons: Cjamges in antifreeze type, poor maintenance, poor oil choice). I have yet to see a *bolt* failure analysis that would cause me to not use a toyota bolt. Spend your time prepping the bolts, the holes, and the surfaces, and spend your money on a good torque wrench and a good head gasket. DOA btw, sells really good headgaskets, btbt. Very few manufacturers make crappy head bolts, no one wants that recall.

I use factory head bolts in audis with 4 times the boost level I run with my supercharged truck. I don't believe any head fastener is going to outperform the stocker in a stock application. I know a lot of race teams use them, and swear by them. I just haven't seen any data that supports the need, only the association. A cople known exceptions (porsche boxer motors for example) so noted, toyota isn't one of them.

Nomex on

Scott Justusson

Nomex is not required around here. One must keep stronger in context, I don't use them because this extra "strength" can apply more clamp. It's that the strength of these studs is much more consistent over the long run of thousands of heating and cooling cycles. The under cut stud is also part of this, with the reduced diameter shank, it does allow for more expansion so the gasket is not over-crushed if things get a little warm.

The bolts are not crappy, they are adequate. Most folks and many shops don't do the prep. They allow for quick and precise assembly in ideal squeaky clean conditions with all new parts... Economics, the numbers have been crunched. In this day and age there is no reason for the failures that are seen... IMO technology is that good.

The only association I can find in all of this is many many blown gaskets. In the case of the 1FZ, the symptoms are being treated, not the problem. The problem being heat at the rear of the cylinder head. I'll be happy to go into my hypothesis about that, LMK.

Comparing the BEAUTIFUL boosted in-line 5 that has well over 2 decades of motorsport development to the 1FZ is a little out there. The 1FZ is good, but the Audi engine is a done deal, it dosn't have the cooling issues.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Brian-I like the idea of using the studs very much, ever since I read an article about them in Motor some time ago. Is there currently a stud kit available, or do you order by length. My HG PM is coming up this fall, assuming I make it that far.

One other thought was buying NEW head bolts. I know most don't do that, but since they are torque to yield, it seems sort of prudent.

 

[cpg]

Hi Brian
Did you ever dig up part numbers for the ARP studs?
Thanks

 

[SUMOTOY]

Nomex is not required around here. One must keep stronger in context, I don't use them because this extra "strength" can apply more clamp. It's that the strength of these studs is much more consistent over the long run of thousands of heating and cooling cycles. The under cut stud is also part of this, with the reduced diameter shank, it does allow for more expansion so the gasket is not over-crushed if things get a little warm.

A couple things. First, it's not applying more clamp, since just about every ARP application uses a torque method (that replaces the 90 degree method after torque). Most tuners use the torque method on the stock bolts, and use a number that's pretty much equal to the charts in the ARP application section. Increased tensile strength means by definition that you have increased clamping force under stress. The under cut studs still have 2 ridges on them just before the threaded portion, so lateral loads are still not accomodated well. The reason the latest studs are more easily removed completely, is because studs tend to bind on the head during removal and installation. BTDT many times. That means that lateral flex is pretty limited.

The bolts are not crappy, they are adequate. Most folks and many shops don't do the prep. They allow for quick and precise assembly in ideal squeaky clean conditions with all new parts... Economics, the numbers have been crunched. In this day and age there is no reason for the failures that are seen... IMO technology is that good.

I find it interesting, that there is such a disparity between failure rates. Lots of really high mile I6's, even if it lasts 130,000 miles, ARP's aren't really a necessity, just an expense. And, if the problem is somewhere else (my suspicion), you've now added some milling into the next repair.

The only association I can find in all of this is many many blown gaskets. In the case of the 1FZ, the symptoms are being treated, not the problem. The problem being heat at the rear of the cylinder head. I'll be happy to go into my hypothesis about that, LMK.

Me too. I believe that the 80 and it's motor needs some ways to address heat. The goodness is there, piston squirters, crank windage, 8 quarts of oil, a big radiator. I question how much of all that heat is getting out of the engine bay myself.

Comparing the BEAUTIFUL boosted in-line 5 that has well over 2 decades of motorsport development to the 1FZ is a little out there. The 1FZ is good, but the Audi engine is a done deal, it dosn't have the cooling issues.

Not true, more issues than the 1FZ, to this day. Audi didn't solve it until the last 2 years (of 17 production) before they no longer offered the motor. Aux rads, oil coolers, so many revisions of the electric fan it's confusing, metal head gaskets etc. And RT will like this one, no water temp guage at ALL in the early turbo quattro coupes (for the very same reason the I6 has the dead spot - it got so hot, audi didn't want to admit it).

Coming back to the 80, it might be better to look at who has addressed the heat at the back of the firewall vs head gasket failure. The water and heat passages in the 1FZ seem to be pretty good, so either water temps are rising or oil temps are rising. ARP's aren't going to fix that.

SJ

 

[pr0ject42]

Well my only argument is against re-using stock bolts. I understand that once they have been torqued down, they will be weakened for the next use. If you're going to drop the dime on a set of stocker bolts, why not go the distance and get some studs instead?

I know on the 3vze (88-94 V6 for the trucks and 4runners) the crossover pipe in the back is horrendous, causing a lot of heat to be trapped back there.. Is there an exhaust routing issue back there that could cause a buildup of heat? Would headers help out in this instance like it does tremendously with the 3v?

 

[clarkrw3]

What I don't understand is why the Supra GTE engine is so stout that you can get 600-700 hp on a stock headgasket and at the same pruduction time you have LC that have a poorly designed HG?!? I do agree that ARP's are the way to install a new HG because they torque better (more evenly) than bolts and yes...they have to have some way to get them screwed into the engine because the are just studs and you can't put vise grips on the treads to get them in so you must beable to use a allen wrench...IE put the last to in after. All preformance engine builders will suggest studs over bolts!!

 

[Rich]

The Supra GTE blew headgaskets left and right. Toyota blew that one also.

 

[tech_dog]

I don't have a mechanic I trust enough to do a head gasket as PM. I'm not going to crack this open until necessary, but when I crack it open I'll probably go deep.

Just out of curiosity, are new engines available for the FZJ80s, and what do they cost? I'm hoping that a new engine and tranny for an FZJ80 would be less than the cost of a new Geo Metro, and would make the me coolest guy on the block.

 

[bjowett]

We will discuss this to no end, just as it's been done before. Most folks will be fine with the bolts, for a while.

Hypothesis. Coolant must pass and cool 5 cylinders prior to reaching #6, so it already has some heat, not an issue yet. Problems really begin with EGR cooler being built into the back of the cylinder head, right behind #6. Hot exhaust is always there, placing more heat into the coolant at #6. After being cooled, it goes to the EGR valve, and when in operation, the EGR runs along the #6 intake runner. Hey why not preheat that air a little more before it enters #6? Proof of all this heat is also shown via the PHH, which takes coolant from right behind #6.They blow all the time, as most around here know. What say ye?