Noise sounds like driving on washboard at high speeds!!!!
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I'd think that keeping the paper wet with a penetrating oil would prevent this.
I skipped the heavy duty dishwasher cycle and just cleaned it out with a paper towel and some WD-40. It's been almost 3 years and 75k without incident.
I'm completely comfortable with this as I've done this sort of thing on other equipment. But I'm a field tech and have to make do with what is on site and that often means no shop or other luxury accomodations. I had no choice but to make mine work as I needed the truck for work. If you have the time the best option would be new bushings but I really think those could be cleaned up and put back into service.
I skipped the heavy duty dishwasher cycle and just cleaned it out with a paper towel and some WD-40. It's been almost 3 years and 75k without incident.
I'm completely comfortable with this as I've done this sort of thing on other equipment. But I'm a field tech and have to make do with what is on site and that often means no shop or other luxury accomodations. I had no choice but to make mine work as I needed the truck for work. If you have the time the best option would be new bushings but I really think those could be cleaned up and put back into service.
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- #23
Jack,
The timing is about right. When I went to the Aisin hubs, I immediately had subtle vibes from the front end at around 70 mph and greater. The stub axles did move in/out a little bit, perhaps this was a partial cause. The other reason is me not doing a good job of cleaning the old grease out of the bushing before applying new stuff.
Everything is back together and I went for a 20 min hwy spin at 70-80mph. The washboard sound is not present and I "think" my subtle vibe has reduced. Maybe I'm just wishing real hard! If the price of the new bushings aren't too bad, I'd like to replace both sides.
In any case, I did end up clocking the bushing 90* and reinstalled it since there was a minute amount of oblong(ing). According to the dial caliper, it was little less than .001" out of round.
Out of curiousity, what exactly is the cause of the washboard sound? Is it the bushing spinning inside the spindle or the occasional dry friction between the axle and the ID of the bushing?
Thanks.
Ali
The timing is about right. When I went to the Aisin hubs, I immediately had subtle vibes from the front end at around 70 mph and greater. The stub axles did move in/out a little bit, perhaps this was a partial cause. The other reason is me not doing a good job of cleaning the old grease out of the bushing before applying new stuff.
Everything is back together and I went for a 20 min hwy spin at 70-80mph. The washboard sound is not present and I "think" my subtle vibe has reduced. Maybe I'm just wishing real hard! If the price of the new bushings aren't too bad, I'd like to replace both sides.
In any case, I did end up clocking the bushing 90* and reinstalled it since there was a minute amount of oblong(ing). According to the dial caliper, it was little less than .001" out of round.
Out of curiousity, what exactly is the cause of the washboard sound? Is it the bushing spinning inside the spindle or the occasional dry friction between the axle and the ID of the bushing?
Thanks.
Ali
The bushing should not come out without enough force to damage it. It it poped out with almost no effort you have a problem. You can get a new bushing like the one you have for around 80 bucks or so. A new spindle with the roller bearing is about 195 bucks.
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More than likely if the bushing fell out it was spinning in the spindle. If the bushing spins in the spindle it will wear the spindle hole. If the spindle hole has wear the new bushing may not press in properly. Did you slide the bushing on the burf, how much play did it have? If the bushing to burf fit is good, you maybe able to save the bushing by, peening it around the outside with a center punch and using loc-tite stud & bearing mount to install it.
An observation on the ovaling of the bushing's inner surface. Normal wear on this bushing would be uniformly around the inner surface. Contact comes from the fact that the axle shaft can move a bit from wear in the birf or drive plate splines and higher RPM exaggerates this. You can also hear a heavy rattle sound once in a while when the right bump causes the axle to bounce around in there at light loads/low speed.
That you have a pattern in one location suggests that somehow the shaft is no longer centered in the bushing. If you did not have the hub mod, I'd question if you or someone previous improperly put the shim back on that was on the steering knuckle. Did you find shims on yours? That's still in play.
But WITH the hub mod, it makes me wonder if something about the mod itself caused the axle tip to not be centered properly? i.e. a poorly machined hub, etc. If so, I don't know how long a new bushing will last.
DougM
That you have a pattern in one location suggests that somehow the shaft is no longer centered in the bushing. If you did not have the hub mod, I'd question if you or someone previous improperly put the shim back on that was on the steering knuckle. Did you find shims on yours? That's still in play.
But WITH the hub mod, it makes me wonder if something about the mod itself caused the axle tip to not be centered properly? i.e. a poorly machined hub, etc. If so, I don't know how long a new bushing will last.
DougM
MMMMMMMMM reading this has me thinking, when I done the birf repack I can't remember now if I greased up this bush? how does the bearing normally get lubricated, is it only when a birf job is done? or should the grease from the birf find it's way in there. me a bit worried now :-(
When I've opened both the birf jobs I've done, there was a flat wall of grease up against the inside of the spindle face through which the axle penetrates outboard through the spindle. In other words, it looked like the grease did not flow out there into the bushing, but the spinning birf simply created a wall of grease over the opening.
Next time you do a front pad replacement, you're only 30 minutes from removing the spindle. Just have new wheel bearing inner seals on hand, though I wouldn't be afraid of reusing them if all looks well. If you reuse, it's just a matter of removing the wheel bearing nuts and a dozen bolts and off comes the spindle. Jam fresh grease in, say hello to the birf and maybe jam a bit of fresh grease into it if it's not in need of a repack - then bolt it together.
DougM
Next time you do a front pad replacement, you're only 30 minutes from removing the spindle. Just have new wheel bearing inner seals on hand, though I wouldn't be afraid of reusing them if all looks well. If you reuse, it's just a matter of removing the wheel bearing nuts and a dozen bolts and off comes the spindle. Jam fresh grease in, say hello to the birf and maybe jam a bit of fresh grease into it if it's not in need of a repack - then bolt it together.
DougM
since there is not supposed to be any contact between spindle and birf I have wondered about the value of greasing there. I understand the need to grease the inner bearings on the later spindles so they spin when the birf glances into them, but I don't see how grease will help much when there is birf to spindle contact. that contact is going to grind the brass bushing whether there is grease there or not, and the grease is going to rub or burn off in about a half a second. or am i missing something?
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- #32
IdahoDoug said:
Doug,
The hub mod did some interesting things in my vehicle. I started a thread some time ago that explained how the axle moved in/out a little bit when using the Asin hubs. This caused the birfs to make contact on the inside of the housing. Coincidentally, I started to hear this subtle vibe feeling/sound at freeway speeds over 70mph. This vibe was still present with the oem drive plates.I went back to the oem drive flanges since then until this issue can be resolved.
When I pull the other bushing out from the driver side, I can't wait to find out what's in store in that one!
Ali
IdahoDoug said:
I don't think so Doug. Because when you turn the wheel it's that bushing that helps keep the joint in place. This probably would be minor but you might see some difference.
Brass changes dimensionally with the amount of oil it contains. When much younger I oiled the brass bushings on an exit assembly on all 25 machines in a Raytheon plant. 3 weeks later they were breaking shafts and stripping sprockets all over the place. The brass had swelled and locked all the shafts solid, what a mess. In the same regard you can dry out a brass bushing with solvents and actually shrink it. That is why I've stated many a time to clean with a light oil and then wipe dry. Just a little personal experience I thought I'd pass on.
Between the glazing and loose fit I'd guess someone soaked the bushing in some solvent. I'd press in a new set.
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- #34
as far as lubricating the bushings, what's the exact procedure? Simply fill the bushings with Moly lube before mounting the spindle on to the knuckle? Or are you suppose to smear the grease on to the ID of the bushing and then mount the spindle? I never gave this procedure much thought until now!
Ali
Ali
I fill those grooves on the inside with moly. As far as the outside goes the grease inside the knuckle running around the EYE shaped grooves should work itself in.
Rick, I don't doubt your past experience with busted machinery at Raytheon, but I am very skeptical that cleaning a solid brass or bronze bushing with solvent will have any dimensional effect at all.
In the case here, I would guess that either the bushing or hub was manufactured out of spec, or that the dried grease that Ali failed to clean out resulted in the bushing seizing and spinning in the hub. If it was spinning in the hub, then there would be evidence of such on the out diameter of the bushing.
I really don't think that cleaning with solvent would cause any harm, and it is more likley, in my opinon, if the bushing was manufactured correctely, the problem was due to lack of cleaning.
The locking hubs are a wildcard in all of the above, I have no idea what, if any, contribution to the problem lay there.
In the case here, I would guess that either the bushing or hub was manufactured out of spec, or that the dried grease that Ali failed to clean out resulted in the bushing seizing and spinning in the hub. If it was spinning in the hub, then there would be evidence of such on the out diameter of the bushing.
I really don't think that cleaning with solvent would cause any harm, and it is more likley, in my opinon, if the bushing was manufactured correctely, the problem was due to lack of cleaning.
The locking hubs are a wildcard in all of the above, I have no idea what, if any, contribution to the problem lay there.
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The bad one I have is off of an early mini axle, but is the same design. The bushing came loose in the spindle by whatever mechanism and wore the spindle off center to one side. The bushing looks good on the inside and fits the burf well. The outside of the bushing is only worn a little bit measuring 39.94 mm. The spindle is egg shape in one direction, it measures 40.02 mm in one direction and 41.21 mm in the other. In all examples I have seen, when the bushing comes loose the spindle wears faster than the bushing, .
If I don't find a better spindle I will run this one, the inside of the spindle and outside of the bushing will be sandblasted and the bushing epoxied in.
If I don't find a better spindle I will run this one, the inside of the spindle and outside of the bushing will be sandblasted and the bushing epoxied in.
Maybe not Rich but I got to think it goes both ways.
Well, read this thread and what do you know, today I get the exact same sounds coming from the front. I know it's not driveline as I recently had new UJ's in the front shaft and it resolved all sounds and vibration.
All though I am way do for a full axle service, in fact I even have all the parts, I am in Montana for X-Mas and cant do the service until the new year. How much work would it be to get to the spindle bushing and clean it up and grease it?? I have to drive back to Bellingham and am worried about doing that with a dry spindle. From the FSM, it doesnt look too bad, but I have never dug into the axle before. Keep in mind I have to work in the driveway @ 0 degrees
All though I am way do for a full axle service, in fact I even have all the parts, I am in Montana for X-Mas and cant do the service until the new year. How much work would it be to get to the spindle bushing and clean it up and grease it?? I have to drive back to Bellingham and am worried about doing that with a dry spindle. From the FSM, it doesnt look too bad, but I have never dug into the axle before. Keep in mind I have to work in the driveway @ 0 degrees