My 1975 2F Holley Sniper Install….

[knuckle47]

Would you know if AE enrichment is restricted to accelerator pressure and then follows the rest of the programming?…. While I feel like an extra shot of fuel upon accelerating would be a solution, I understand it may mask the real issue if there actually is another thing going on

 

[zerotreedelta]

Would you know if AE enrichment is restricted to accelerator pressure and then follows the rest of the programming?…. While I feel like an extra shot of fuel upon accelerating would be a solution, I understand it may mask the real issue if there actually is another thing going on

Holley has a few settings, and they do interplay a bit. They have AE by Throttle Rate (how fast the pedal moves) as well as AE by MAP Change Rate (how much load is it under). Generally tuning the throttle-rate one helps with the neutral blips, and the MAP Rate on helps for acceleration when under load, but they do combine (so under load, you'll get some fuel for the MAP value, and some fuel from the throttle-rate value, combined) There's also some compensation factors for coolant temp - it generally gives more of a shot when cold, but all configurable.

I have my idle one dialed in pretty good - still some final touches on the under-load side though.

 

[mrboatman]

Holley has a few settings, and they do interplay a bit. They have AE by Throttle Rate (how fast the pedal moves) as well as AE by MAP Change Rate (how much load is it under). Generally tuning the throttle-rate one helps with the neutral blips, and the MAP Rate on helps for acceleration when under load, but they do combine (so under load, you'll get some fuel for the MAP value, and some fuel from the throttle-rate value, combined) There's also some compensation factors for coolant temp - it generally gives more of a shot when cold, but all configurable.

I have my idle one dialed in pretty good - still some final touches on the under-load side though.

What disturber are you running

 

[knuckle47]

So…. Here is full disclosure with permission of @zerotreedelta . You should know that over 3 years ago, I never knew who “Lone Wolf Works” was or even a IH8MUD guy but I’d downloaded his entire restoration video library of his FJ40 onYouTube. Over 45 of them and these are not shorts…the details are all there

I will start by adding that my FJ40 Sniper EFI and Hyperspark ignition ( all inspired by his YouTube series) was running extremely well but not really living within some of the parameters in the setup descriptions in the manual. I had no complaints. My IAC was never fully stable at the recommended 2-12% and routinely drifted downward to 0. THIS was the only real issue I want to resolve. @Jdc1 bounced several thoughts around with me. Then came a PM to my MUD inbox

@zerotreedelta was kind enough to reply to my questions via PM and we started discussing a few things about detailed tuning. @zerotreedelta offered to review my config file and generously emailed me a copy of his tuning configuration file. He asked me to give it a try. My engine was rebuilt 7777 miles ago so, I did ….and I have discovered an another unknown. The versatility in the electronic tuning of a Sniper EFI has a very high ceiling. Things I would have never gotten to realize until I loaded @zerotreedelta config file despite reading the 79 page manual over and over and over

I NEVER realized that in his tuning, IAC is super stable, repeatable and stabilizes the return to idle even better. At 50mph his IAC is 10%….mine was alway 20%. My IAC drifted constantly…HOLLEY TECH SUPPORT never keyed into this instability during the 7 different 20-40 minute phone sessions. There is a myriad of details that control this parameter. I ALWAYS believed I HAD a vacuum leak. NOT the case….all just mapping of fuel and air

I tinker with stuff all the time whether I know about it or not, so..I re-ran the setup wizard. The resulting configuration was oddly different than the original setup. Had a call for some high AFR on acceleration, never had that before. Enough that the vehicle could easily stall in second gear with a strong accelerator pedal press.

This plagued me for a few days. Mimicked a strong vacuum leak but the carb cleaner spray showed nothing so I had to dig deeper. Pulled the plugs, ( DEFINITELY running rich) checked compression, checked the timing and was ready to pull the entire assembly off and re-do all the gaskets from the manifolds up, just due to frustration.

@zerotreedelta then explained how the VE (volumetric efficiency) maps were established, how fuel and air pressure were mixed and where the differences were likely occurring. He is also tweaking my file for even greater performance, efficiency and learning by viewing the patterns in my datalogs …eventually with the “learning” the ECU will perform, this file should be amazing. All I can say is there are PLENTY of Sniper guys out here and as we can all begin to share our data, the pool gets more refined except for a few custom builds and hi-output engines. This man’s impressive expertise in this arena has highlighted the depths of possibilities with these little throttle body units.

Publicly I would like to thank @zerotreedelta for his generous sharing of time and expertise and getting my EXCELLENT running 2F even BETTER THAN what I thought it was.

Hey Zero…. Thanks man

Here something also to remember. I know this is NOT a performance engine. I am not looking for that kind of performance. I am looking for the type of performance a well trained athlete may possess. Efficiency in processes. The 4 steps of a 4-stoke engine at their maximum…regardless of size

Look for some new exciting reports as they develop

 

[JKIII FJ40]

Great discussion add Knuckle47. Having had a sniper for about three years I have been through the whole cycle of liking it to wanting to take it off and go back to a carb. There is definitely some science to dialing it in, as I am a simple caveman I will need to find a place to go to solve this issue. One question on your updated config, did your mileage improve or stay the same. I know its not a mileage machine but more curiosity. I recently tinkered with my AE as there was always a sluggish spot around 1300-1800 I tried bumping up the AE from 30lbs to 50lbs and that didnt go well. I then increased my WOT significantly and I can rev it up faster but feel I am getting it too far out of whack. The one thing different from mine is when I had an injector failure I replaced them with 43lb injectors, aside from a higher duty cycle time I havent noticed anything different on fuel consumption nor performance. I was going to re-run the wizard this weekend and start over, not preferred as it isnt stalling out on the first stop sign stop like it would on a new config. I will be following the thread earnestly for the adventure. Thanks.

 

[knuckle47]

@JKIII FJ40 My sniper is also running about 3 years and I was very pleased with the original setup once it settled in. I had added the Hyperspark ignition about 1 year later and have nothing to complain about. So to immediately address your question: this was a 9 mile loop near my house that I use to go pick up meds , drop off UPS returns and pick up a few household staples. This all happened yesterday So there was no long term mileage assessment. I can say that I always knew my 40 was running rich just by the exhaust smells and I did not get that rich smell on this ride. The improvement however was immediate.

I did notice within the first mile there was a flat spot ( maybe more like a lingering zone) in acceleration doing 40mph, third gear, and getting ready to shift to 4th and I felt that the rpm should have spun more quickly from 2500 towards 2900 or so. @zerotreedelta feels like the ECU is still learning as this was literally the first mile.

Do you have your WOT over 38?. My current timing at idle is 10 based on the Innova 5568 timing light. My handheld display reads between 8-12 depending on running condition and whether warm or initial startup. When I was rebuilding V-twin motorcycle engines there was a company who did porting and polishing along with flow bench testing to hone in the best fuel feed to the cylinders. As responsive as it was, I always believed the end results were impressive but not necessary unless you’re one of the green light zoom guys ( you know, the light turns green and they crack the throttle)

At my age, or any age really, I do not want to be stranded on / off the road so I do carry a spare O2 sensor, IAC motor and injectors so if I am pulling at straws, I have a few extras. I did actually get stuck in Ballston Lake back in 1975 on the Adirondack Northway on the way back toRouses’ Point to cross into Vermont. That was only a clogged fuel filter on a new ‘74. A sinking feeling at 21

With the instruction manual laying out the guidelines for proper adjustment…. all…I mean ALL video and guides and discussions point to no one really commenting that their IAC was IMPOSSIBLE to set. Since this was the one function I could never keep within the recommend setting, I felt something was wrong. And that is the catalyst for this entire deep dive. I even have clips and pictures of other peoples hand heads looking at data shown to make comparisons to mine. IAC was always the standout

That’s the only reason I would have to keep looking at any and all possibilities. @zerotreedelta has the IAC function operating in such a stable way with absolutely not even twisting a screw, idle is great around 690-700. My question then is…where are those determinations made in the vast selectivity of functions that occasionally, an engine does not settle into the setup norm and benefits from this “tweaking”?. I have the laptop software running and all I can say it the flexibility is staggering

 

[zerotreedelta]

Just as a visual - doing the detail tune via the laptop vs the wizard does let you be a bit more nuanced on things. These are my latest timing and AFR maps - the timing **should** be a pretty good replication of the pre-emissions factory curves based on the specs, with some minor tuning. My old timing was a bit more lazy - the new map is much better. For the mileage q, I was usually in the 10-11 range, and my last mileage run was 13.4, so some improvement there.

The block timing map at the bottom is more what the wizard produces - much harsher transitions, less nuance. It works, its simple and approachable, but doesn't truly unlock the power of EFI/TBI/controlled ignition.

This is just the main timing/fuel - there's def another angle on the AE tuning (ie, accelerator pump) as well as coolant temp tuning (cold/warmup vs when-warm).

 

[jhynesrockmtn]

This thread is a good reminder at some point to revisit my setup. Zerotreedelta sold me his spare hyperspark and the combo has been running pretty well. He was really helpful with that transaction and I believe sent me some setup info at the time. I have literally done nothing but the initial setup. I should pull the plugs and look at them.

 

[knuckle47]

@jhynesrockmtn its been an eye opener on my end.. I may have to go back to school, evenings!

 

[knuckle47]

Just as a visual - doing the detail tune via the laptop vs the wizard does let you be a bit more nuanced on things. These are my latest timing and AFR maps - the timing **should** be a pretty good replication of the pre-emissions factory curves based on the specs, with some minor tuning. My old timing was a bit more lazy - the new map is much better. For the mileage q, I was usually in the 10-11 range, and my last mileage run was 13.4, so some improvement there.

The block timing map at the bottom is more what the wizard produces - much harsher transitions, less nuance. It works, its simple and approachable, but doesn't truly unlock the power of EFI/TBI/controlled ignition.

This is just the main timing/fuel - there's def another angle on the AE tuning (ie, accelerator pump) as well as coolant temp tuning (cold/warmup vs when-warm).

View attachment 4217319View attachment 4217320

View attachment 4217322

Maybe I’m intimidated but I still go for it.. I may not know a whole lot about it or how to fix it but I’m still going for it. My greatest hesitation at this point in my lifelong FJ40 experiences would be standing on the side of the road, pushing it out of the way of other vehicles.

 

[JKIII FJ40]

@JKIII FJ40 My sniper is also running about 3 years and I was very pleased with the original setup once it settled in. I had added the Hyperspark ignition about 1 year later and have nothing to complain about. So to immediately address your question: this was a 9 mile loop near my house that I use to go pick up meds , drop off UPS returns and pick up a few household staples. This all happened yesterday So there was no long term mileage assessment. I can say that I always knew my 40 was running rich just by the exhaust smells and I did not get that rich smell on this ride. The improvement however was immediate.

I did notice within the first mile there was a flat spot ( maybe more like a lingering zone) in acceleration doing 40mph, third gear, and getting ready to shift to 4th and I felt that the rpm should have spun more quickly from 2500 towards 2900 or so. @zerotreedelta feels like the ECU is still learning as this was literally the first mile.

Do you have your WOT over 38?. My current timing at idle is 10 based on the Innova 5568 timing light. My handheld display reads between 8-12 depending on running condition and whether warm or initial startup. When I was rebuilding V-twin motorcycle engines there was a company who did porting and polishing along with flow bench testing to hone in the best fuel feed to the cylinders. As responsive as it was, I always believed the end results were impressive but not necessary unless you’re one of the green light zoom guys ( you know, the light turns green and they crack the throttle)

At my age, or any age really, I do not want to be stranded on / off the road so I do carry a spare O2 sensor, IAC motor and injectors so if I am pulling at straws, I have a few extras. I did actually get stuck in Ballston Lake back in 1975 on the Adirondack Northway on the way back toRouses’ Point to cross into Vermont. That was only a clogged fuel filter on a new ‘74. A sinking feeling at 21

With the instruction manual laying out the guidelines for proper adjustment…. all…I mean ALL video and guides and discussions point to no one really commenting that their IAC was IMPOSSIBLE to set. Since this was the one function I could never keep within the recommend setting, I felt something was wrong. And that is the catalyst for this entire deep dive. I even have clips and pictures of other peoples hand heads looking at data shown to make comparisons to mine. IAC was always the standout

That’s the only reason I would have to keep looking at any and all possibilities. @zerotreedelta has the IAC function operating in such a stable way with absolutely not even twisting a screw, idle is great around 690-700. My question then is…where are those determinations made in the vast selectivity of functions that occasionally, an engine does not settle into the setup norm and benefits from this “tweaking”?. I have the laptop software running and all I can say it the flexibility is staggering

Thanks for the added info. I was on the road yesterday so this is the first chance I got to respond. I to also have an unstable IAC, although in reading your adventures its small in comparison. My IAC fluctuations are tied to heat soak I believe, once at operating temp I have them dialed right in. After a decent drive and then stopping for a bit and then starting up and driving again the IAC will drop to 0 a lot at an idle. Doesnt pay to stop for ice cream.....

 

[JKIII FJ40]

Just as a visual - doing the detail tune via the laptop vs the wizard does let you be a bit more nuanced on things. These are my latest timing and AFR maps - the timing **should** be a pretty good replication of the pre-emissions factory curves based on the specs, with some minor tuning. My old timing was a bit more lazy - the new map is much better. For the mileage q, I was usually in the 10-11 range, and my last mileage run was 13.4, so some improvement there.

The block timing map at the bottom is more what the wizard produces - much harsher transitions, less nuance. It works, its simple and approachable, but doesn't truly unlock the power of EFI/TBI/controlled ignition.

This is just the main timing/fuel - there's def another angle on the AE tuning (ie, accelerator pump) as well as coolant temp tuning (cold/warmup vs when-warm).

View attachment 4217319View attachment 4217320

View attachment 4217322

Great info. I havent downloaded my tune on to my laptop in a long time. I may need to go back in and see if I can replicate how your is mapped out. My AE ratios are definitely off and my recent changes to off set the less than stellar throttle response dropped my mileage by over a 1-1.5mpg. I know its a rolling brick but that change was significant.

 

[knuckle47]

A few friends joked with me for a long time now that I have OCD and I’ve discovered there are places where this assessment has merit. I’ve routinely found that if something is supposed to have a certain setting for proper operation, it’s not proper until that setting is achieved. My internet is 1 gb service. At wired desktop speeds I’m am really good towards that number. My laptop top? Holy cow the wi-if must be under 30kb. It’s painful to use for connectivity. Wired?….acceptable. Some Bluetooth device asked to connect to the system here and said “ there are over 50 devices connected”. Man, I’ve got my work cut out

This is where a little bit of knowledge gets to be dangerous. I have no fear, twisting screws and entering numbers and messing around with adjusting things as long as I can get back to the beginning where it all started. More than learning from that experience …there are elements of some products that just never return to those original states which makes the probability of really screwing it up much higher. You know, that hard
re-boot and you’re back to square one.

One thing about the Holley EFI set up for me is that it is absolutely stunning. Possibly it has not yet performed as what would be described as textbook operations. The fact that I had called Holley tech service support and spoke to them for well over 2 1/2 hours total after waiting 30 and 40 minutes to connect to a line, annoys me further. It sounded as if some of these guys barely knew their ass from their elbow. As tech support, you should be able to have a valid action to guide the customer to a more successful outcome. Until @zerotreedelta jumped into the pool , so to speak, this was as far as I could go.

Are we saying that Holley wants you to pull at “theoretical’ straws as well? I would’ve thought, as I have spoken to many tech-support people over the last 30 years, that they will truly help set someone in a direction that sets everything back in line. While these guys recommended certain things, not one of them has solved the IAC issue and that’s where @zerotreedelta has come in and really made a substantial improvement not only for the operational technical setup but for what lies in my brain as I am shifting gears and staring out the window. That’s the OCD part talking. The “station wagon effect” exhaust smell alone is less excessive.

Like anyone else, I have gone to YouTube and listened for hours to all kinds of instruction video. There are many different Holley tuning pros out there, but without the basic fundamental knowledge of what all of it means, it goes over my head quite quickly.

Make no mistake …I am REALLY enjoying all of this. As you get older your presence in the world evolves and becomes somewhat invisible and this involvement brings life back to the forefront…in your 70’s and more, you probably understand being invisible

Good luck to all and thanks for the platform

 

[knuckle47]

Gotta just add this after re-reading the post….THE HOLLEY SNIPER EFI and the Hyper-spark ignition is one of the top modernizations I have made to my 51 year old truck. Starting my 40 after sitting a few weeks whether freezing cold or hot and humid….perfect, throttle response…perfect. For anyone thinking EFI… it’s not as dramatic as it may read. That’s just the thinking of some people in the mix.

It really is plug and play with a lot of flexibility