Mechanic Fixed Head Gasket, At Completion Tells Me I May Require Engine Rebuild (2 Viewers)

[JoeCova]

I found a shop up in Loveland, Colorado that was recommended to me by the Slee guys. Seems like they do a lot of engine rebuilds and prefer to work on older Toyotas.
I am sure I will end up waiting months for the new short block. The only short block in stock in all of America is in Medford, Oregon but they don't ship.

Edit: I do have new ARP studs that were put on a few months back when I got the head work done.

Auto Repair, Loveland CO | L1 Automotive

www.l1automotive.com

Good stuff.

I got 3 quotes from various landcruiser shops. Two quoted $15,000 and the third quoted $30,000.

All said and done I spent around ~$10,000 in OEM parts for the rebuild and several weekends of my time.

 

[80 Life]

Good stuff.

I got 3 quotes from various landcruiser shops. Two quoted $15,000 and the third quoted $30,000.

All said and done I spent around ~$10,000 in OEM parts for the rebuild and several weekends of my time.

The "go to" shops for LC rebuilds in Colorado are charging wild amounts. Everyone recommends Japanese Auto Service in Wheat Ridge, but I saw a guy come out of there recently with a $16,000 receipt for rebuild. Let me be clear they do great work and use quality parts, but to the average joe $16k is nuts.

 

[codgn]

I found a shop up in Loveland, Colorado that was recommended to me by the Slee guys. Seems like they do a lot of engine rebuilds and prefer to work on older Toyotas.
I am sure I will end up waiting months for the new short block. The only short block in stock in all of America is in Medford, Oregon but they don't ship.

Edit: I do have new ARP studs that were put on a few months back when I got the head work done.

Auto Repair, Loveland CO | L1 Automotive

www.l1automotive.com

L1 auto awesome! You should have a pretty good experience with them

 

[Bud_Dude]

Phew! I just read all 11 pages of this thread! I wanted to skip to the end to see how the story ended, but felt it better to read the whole book desperately hoping for a happy ending for all concerned. Alas, I was saddened to see that you're still in the process of getting your baby running correctly and hope it all turns out for the best soon for you. By all means, please continue the thread to conclusion; we all learn so much from these threads on how to deal with our own cruisers.

I have a similar problem and saga and am in the early days of getting to the bottom of it. Same basic deal though - I took my '97 Anniversary model with only 170K miles to a small shop that allegedly specializes in Toyotas and which came recommended (albeit not by other LC owners...). I was a little concerned when seeing the shop as it was not clean and appeared disorganized. Nevertheless, the shop owner had a good shtick so I let them do the head gasket job. To minimize chances of aftermarket junk parts being installed I bought and provided all the necessary factory parts for the job and usual "while you're in there" jobs (like the injectors, fuel filter, PHH, oil cooler, etc) beforehand from various Toyota online resources (ie McGeorge Toyota, etc). The truck spent four full weeks in (and outside) that shop as I'd told them to take their time and use it as filler work and do it right and by the FSM (which I also provided to them). On popping in one day to see how things were progressing it was clear they'd not followed the FSM since they removed the intake manifold without removing the throttle body first, even though I'd told them I wanted every single vacuum hose replaced with new since they'd have it apart anyway and even provided the tubing/hoses... As well, the head was off and the timing chain nowhere in sight, but the main sprocket laying on a cart, the tech said he had trouble removing the cams and dropped the chain into the front cover saying it was easy to fish out. So I asked whether he'd installed the service bolt on the cam sprocket and said no there was some wrong and couldn't get it in... All of this meaning he'd not read or followed the FSM in the slightest.... Probably just zipped all the cam bearing caps haphazardly as well... Me = Not Happy. Shop owner, not happy that I was appearing unannounced... In then end I got the truck back and it basically seemed to run fine, but I've had an uneasy feeling about it ever since. And as I take the thing into the depths of Death Valley and on hard to reach mountain trails, not feeling comfortable about the engine is a bad thing, and I so wished I'd done the head gasket project myself. Oh well...

Fast forward 5 months and 2000 miles to September, I notice low to no oil pressure on a road trip. So I had the oil changed mid-trip just to make sure. (and now, with my 20/20 hindsight I should have had the oil changer give me the oil filter to study later...) Anyway, no change in oil pressure with new oil and filter, but the truck was basically running fine so I continued the trip and made it home. So now (March) 5 months and 2000 more miles later (and well within the 12 months / 12K mileage warranty for the work performed) I'm noticing some rattling sounds and still low to no oil pressure. So I do some research and conclude that I at least need to change the filter to a Toyota 90915-YZZD3 filter to see if that helps; and since I was at it, go ahead and replace the very inexpensive oil cooler and oil pump pressure relief valves and springs (all of which seemed to be in perfect condition...).

Well first thing was to drain the removed oil filter and noticed pretty sparkles in the sunlight as the oil coming out of it... hmmm not so good...

So next step cut the old oil filter open and see what's in the pleats... ugh, even worse news...

Thankfully (maybe), little if any of this metal responds to or sticks to a very strong magnet; so it seems it's all aluminum? But from where?
I drained the rest of the engine oil and let it sit for hours looking to see if there's any more metal in the oil pan that came out, again slowly dragged a magnet through that and nothing sticks. Good, maybe? So I slowly poured it into containers an see no additional sparkles or metal indications. Certain nothing like what came out of the filter. Not wanting to remove the lower (steel) oil pan, I stuck my endoscope camera into the pan to look for metal on the bottom; now these cameras are hard to use on a good day, but coated in oil laying under the truck they're near to impossible to maneuver into the right position to see or make sense of what you're looking at; nevertheless, after numerous tries I saw nothing like metal chips anywhere, gave up and refilled with fresh oil. I have saved the old oil and am waiting for my free Blackstone Labs oil test kit to arrive so I can send them a sample for analysis (probably along with a piece of the metal covered oil filter pleat...).

Oil wise I bumped the oil from synthetic mix 10W-30 from the oil changer to a synthetic mix 10W-40. Switching to the Toyota filter, replacing the relief valves and springs, and increasing the oil viscosity does appear to have improved the low oil pressure; it's anyone's guess as to which item was the low pressure culprit, but the end result is good, I think... It's still quite low at idle, but is at least back up to low-mid scale on the dash gauge at driving revs of around 2000-3000 RPM, about where I remember it being prior to the head gasket job. (And yes, I've removed and tested the oil pressure sensor and confirmed it's not faulty...)

Even with good oil pressure I am getting a rattle, not so much of a 'knock', but I'm no expert on what a knock might sound like and haven't gotten far enough along to determine whether it's a op or bottom end noise. However, there is some rattling after start up and some warm up that occurs as I increase the revs to to and then through 2000 RPM, but quiet down as I continue to 3000 RPM. When driving, if left in 2nd gear to facilitate back pressure deceleration, when I release the accelerator pedal quickly the rattle becomes quite noticeable. Otherwise, the truck is relatively quiet and seems to drive fine, but all that metal is deeply concerning and I certainly have no faith in taking the truck in to the wilderness where an extraction due to a failed engine could cost thousands of dollars.

So like the OP, I am now weighing my options on just how to proceed with the shop who did the head gasket. And as the others have commented, I applaud your patience, even handed and non-adversarial approach to dealing with your head gasket shop owner.
If indeed this metal is bottom end related (rod or other bearings) what could the head gasket shop have possibly done wrong to trigger or cause such a failure?

If not caused by faulty workmanship by the shop I imagine that I'll just have to accept that it's just a coincidence that the engine is having a meltdown earlier in its lifespan than most, then get on with the fix, whether that be rebuilding it or replacing it altogether.

 

[BILT4ME]

Phew! I just read all 11 pages of this thread! I wanted to skip to the end to see how the story ended, but felt it better to read the whole book desperately hoping for a happy ending for all concerned. Alas, I was saddened to see that you're still in the process of getting your baby running correctly and hope it all turns out for the best soon for you. By all means, please continue the thread to conclusion; we all learn so much from these threads on how to deal with our own cruisers.

I have a similar problem and saga and am in the early days of getting to the bottom of it. Same basic deal though - I took my '97 Anniversary model with only 170K miles to a small shop that allegedly specializes in Toyotas and which came recommended (albeit not by other LC owners...). I was a little concerned when seeing the shop as it was not clean and appeared disorganized. Nevertheless, the shop owner had a good shtick so I let them do the head gasket job. To minimize chances of aftermarket junk parts being installed I bought and provided all the necessary factory parts for the job and usual "while you're in there" jobs (like the injectors, fuel filter, PHH, oil cooler, etc) beforehand from various Toyota online resources (ie McGeorge Toyota, etc). The truck spent four full weeks in (and outside) that shop as I'd told them to take their time and use it as filler work and do it right and by the FSM (which I also provided to them). On popping in one day to see how things were progressing it was clear they'd not followed the FSM since they removed the intake manifold without removing the throttle body first, even though I'd told them I wanted every single vacuum hose replaced with new since they'd have it apart anyway and even provided the tubing/hoses... As well, the head was off and the timing chain nowhere in sight, but the main sprocket laying on a cart, the tech said he had trouble removing the cams and dropped the chain into the front cover saying it was easy to fish out. So I asked whether he'd installed the service bolt on the cam sprocket and said no there was some wrong and couldn't get it in... All of this meaning he'd not read or followed the FSM in the slightest.... Probably just zipped all the cam bearing caps haphazardly as well... Me = Not Happy. Shop owner, not happy that I was appearing unannounced... In then end I got the truck back and it basically seemed to run fine, but I've had an uneasy feeling about it ever since. And as I take the thing into the depths of Death Valley and on hard to reach mountain trails, not feeling comfortable about the engine is a bad thing, and I so wished I'd done the head gasket project myself. Oh well...

Fast forward 5 months and 2000 miles to September, I notice low to no oil pressure on a road trip. So I had the oil changed mid-trip just to make sure. (and now, with my 20/20 hindsight I should have had the oil changer give me the oil filter to study later...) Anyway, no change in oil pressure with new oil and filter, but the truck was basically running fine so I continued the trip and made it home. So now (March) 5 months and 2000 more miles later (and well within the 12 months / 12K mileage warranty for the work performed) I'm noticing some rattling sounds and still low to no oil pressure. So I do some research and conclude that I at least need to change the filter to a Toyota 90915-YZZD3 filter to see if that helps; and since I was at it, go ahead and replace the very inexpensive oil cooler and oil pump pressure relief valves and springs (all of which seemed to be in perfect condition...).

Well first thing was to drain the removed oil filter and noticed pretty sparkles in the sunlight as the oil coming out of it... hmmm not so good...

So next step cut the old oil filter open and see what's in the pleats... ugh, even worse news...

Thankfully (maybe), little if any of this metal responds to or sticks to a very strong magnet; so it seems it's all aluminum? But from where?
I drained the rest of the engine oil and let it sit for hours looking to see if there's any more metal in the oil pan that came out, again slowly dragged a magnet through that and nothing sticks. Good, maybe? So I slowly poured it into containers an see no additional sparkles or metal indications. Certain nothing like what came out of the filter. Not wanting to remove the lower (steel) oil pan, I stuck my endoscope camera into the pan to look for metal on the bottom; now these cameras are hard to use on a good day, but coated in oil laying under the truck they're near to impossible to maneuver into the right position to see or make sense of what you're looking at; nevertheless, after numerous tries I saw nothing like metal chips anywhere, gave up and refilled with fresh oil. I have saved the old oil and am waiting for my free Blackstone Labs oil test kit to arrive so I can send them a sample for analysis (probably along with a piece of the metal covered oil filter pleat...).

Oil wise I bumped the oil from synthetic mix 10W-30 from the oil changer to a synthetic mix 10W-40. Switching to the Toyota filter, replacing the relief valves and springs, and increasing the oil viscosity does appear to have improved the low oil pressure; it's anyone's guess as to which item was the low pressure culprit, but the end result is good, I think... It's still quite low at idle, but is at least back up to low-mid scale on the dash gauge at driving revs of around 2000-3000 RPM, about where I remember it being prior to the head gasket job. (And yes, I've removed and tested the oil pressure sensor and confirmed it's not faulty...)

Even with good oil pressure I am getting a rattle, not so much of a 'knock', but I'm no expert on what a knock might sound like and haven't gotten far enough along to determine whether it's a op or bottom end noise. However, there is some rattling after start up and some warm up that occurs as I increase the revs to to and then through 2000 RPM, but quiet down as I continue to 3000 RPM. When driving, if left in 2nd gear to facilitate back pressure deceleration, when I release the accelerator pedal quickly the rattle becomes quite noticeable. Otherwise, the truck is relatively quiet and seems to drive fine, but all that metal is deeply concerning and I certainly have no faith in taking the truck in to the wilderness where an extraction due to a failed engine could cost thousands of dollars.

So like the OP, I am now weighing my options on just how to proceed with the shop who did the head gasket. And as the others have commented, I applaud your patience, even handed and non-adversarial approach to dealing with your head gasket shop owner.
If indeed this metal is bottom end related (rod or other bearings) what could the head gasket shop have possibly done wrong to trigger or cause such a failure?

If not caused by faulty workmanship by the shop I imagine that I'll just have to accept that it's just a coincidence that the engine is having a meltdown earlier in its lifespan than most, then get on with the fix, whether that be rebuilding it or replacing it altogether.

The metal you're seeing is the nonmagnetic babbit material from the lower end bearings (mains and rods) and you're going to have a failure sooner than later.

If he didn't get the harmonic balancer bolt torqued to 306 lb-ft, then he owns this engine because that's what it has to be to drive the oil pump.

Have another shop check torque and document their findings in writing and inform them ahead of time what you're doing and why. Don't do it yourself.

Secondly, if you would have had the old oil filter, then you may have had a case for the Wix oil filter engine failures, but that ship has sailed.

Once again, the saga of someone asking a shop to do work, and take your time because it will be cheaper. Never works. Always ends in horrible failure for the customer. The shop gets distracted, loses track of parts, where they were and what they have done and it turns into a total cluster fu ck.

I'm sorry for your loss.

Buy a new short block now so it comes in before it completely pukes.

Maybe build it out on the stand to get it ready.

 

[manofthewoods]

The metal you're seeing is the nonmagnetic babbit material from the lower end bearings (mains and rods) and you're going to have a failure sooner than later.

If he didn't get the harmonic balancer bolt torqued to 306 lb-ft, then he owns this engine because that's what it has to be to drive the oil pump.

Have another shop check torque and document their findings in writing and inform them ahead of time what you're doing and why. Don't do it yourself.

Secondly, if you would have had the old oil filter, then you may have had a case for the Wix oil filter engine failures, but that ship has sailed.

Once again, the saga of someone asking a shop to do work, and take your time because it will be cheaper. Never works. Always ends in horrible failure for the customer. The shop gets distracted, loses track of parts, where they were and what they have done and it turns into a total cluster fu ck.

I'm sorry for your loss.

Buy a new short block now split comes in before it completely pukes.

Maybe build it out on the stand to get it ready.

re: the Babbit, I was thinking the same thing, and/or possibly aluminum. Once that metal is gone, it's gone. More oil pressure isn't really going to fix that. While I'm sure that there are shops who will do excellent work from top to bottom, they won't be cheap. For me it's not about money, it's knowing that I went carefully, focused on my only project following established procedures (aka the FSM). If something does not work, I have the moron in the mirror to blame.
I sincerely hope for the best for both of these gentlemen.

 

[baldilocks]

I can’t imagine being into these aging LandCruisers without the ability to do this kind of work myself or being wealthy enough to ship my dead Cruiser to a real LandCruiser shop that knows what they are doing and do the job like it’s their own Landcruiser. Being held hostage by some goon doesn’t set well with me.

 

[aztoyman]

I don't think you should even start it let alone drive it. It's going to get more expensive real soon. Sickens me to hear of shops that are out there doing work like this.

 

[Bud_Dude]

@*baldilocks - Agreed and most cruiser heads I know have reasonable capability to work on their older trucks, up to a limit. Yanking an engine and transmission out in your driveway exceeds that limit for most, leaving them to find a decent shop willing to do the work, usually for a price... And honestly when searching for shops, most are not interested in the work and don't want to tie up a bay or tech on a job when they can move 10+ cars through on much easier, more lucrative, and lower risk work. And, really who can blame them?

I really wrestled with the decision to let a shop do my head gasket. I watched enough videos on the topic to convince myself I could do it, but would need to procure a few new tools (like a small engine hoist to lift the head up and out). I've done head jobs in the distant past on my old '69 Z28 and my old '82 Toyota pickup 22R engine.

One of the problems (at least for short folk such as me) is that just accessing the engine compartment on these lifted trucks with big tires is a challenge. When considering doing the head myself, I planned on building a work platform about 18-24" tall around the front and sides of the truck just so I could get to things. I usually use a small stool or short stepladder for easier jobs, but even then from the front with your big ARB bumper, you can't quite get to things. And there's so much stuff in the engine bay that the days of climbing into it have pretty much long passed. Of course, being older makes it all that much more difficult; and then you pay for it the next day, thankfully ibuprofin is a food group nowadays... Hell, just getting down onto my crawler to work underneath on things requires a plan on how in the hell I'm gonna get back up to get the tool I forgot! I know some shops will go so far as to putting the truck on to their lift and then remove the wheels in order be be able to lower it closer to the ground to work on, other shops just let the air out of the tires. Of course having a lift is a major help, but damn few few truck owners can afford, much less some place to install such a luxury. It's much worse for those with more modern vehicles where servicing the engine from your home shop is pretty much a non-starter altogether, putting owners of the newer vehicles at the complete mercy of dealerships or shops for most any service.

In the end, I went with having a shop do the work, and understanding the risks of it maybe not going as well as I'd like, but hoping that it would at least would be done well enough and be reliable. And at 4000 miles post head gasket I was getting there, until I wasn't...

At this point I have no proof that the shop which did my head gasket is responsible for bottom end failures that appear to have occurred. While I was unimpressed with the way in which they executed the work, their workmanship may well be perfectly fine. As with the OP, step one for me is to try and work together with the shop in determining the nature and source of the problems; hopefully without animosity.

 

[80 Life]

I can’t imagine being into these aging LandCruisers without the ability to do this kind of work myself or being wealthy enough to ship my dead Cruiser to a real LandCruiser shop that knows what they are doing and do the job like it’s their own Landcruiser. Being held hostage by some goon doesn’t set well with me.

Totally agree. I told my GF the other day that once I get the 80 running again I will probably open up to trades/sale. It will be fully dialed in at that point, but to keep myself sane I may need to move on. She was super sad to hear me even considering selling after all the work done to make it the perfect rig for us.

 

[baldilocks]

Totally agree. I told my GF the other day that once I get the 80 running again I will probably open up to trades/sale. It will be fully dialed in at that point, but to keep myself sane I may need to move on. She was super sad to hear me even considering selling after all the work done to make it the perfect rig for us.

You don’t understand this game. The woman being onboard is being 75% of the way there.

 

[PIP]

That is a lot of metal in there! you should probably not drive that.

That metal could be from the cams or timing chain chewing through aluminum in the head or timing cover. I would actually reason that metal is not coming from the lower end bearings because if it was it would knocking something fierce and way down on power by now. You can't take a pound of glitter out of the crank bearings and have a working engine.

I do my own wrenching, not for others, but I do run a business doing machinework for other businesses. If a customer of mine wants to be intimately involved in the project I will make sure that I actively listen and work with them to a good result. However, I do charge extra for that extra level of constant communication and time spent making sure we're all on the same page at every step. In most cases I don't feel it adds anything to the end results, but it definitely helps higher strung customers trust their project is in good hands and being done correctly.

My suggestion is don't force a shop to do things differently. Find a shop that does things the way you want them done. That includes cleanliness, organization, and communication.