May24 - Table Mesa = Ticket, ARS13-1302(B) - Trespass w/o Trust Land Permit (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter LongDuck
- Start date
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MaddBaggins
Remember the KnightRider!
Hey Phil! Where would a Tonto pass be required? If I was camping at, say, Payette Draw, would I need a pass? I don't get up north much.
I do have a STL permit because one of the places I MTB in Tucson is STL. When in my rig, out in the boonies, I am always potentially hunting. I carry my license and mountain lion tag and a rifle and I am always on the lookout.
I do have a STL permit because one of the places I MTB in Tucson is STL. When in my rig, out in the boonies, I am always potentially hunting. I carry my license and mountain lion tag and a rifle and I am always on the lookout.
Tonto pass is required in improved areas camp grounds, Bartlett Lake, and picnic areas. No pass would be required at Payette.
A Tonto pass is not required in developed areas if you are passing through, taken pictures, stopping at an overlook, or using the bathroom.
MaddBaggins
Remember the KnightRider!
Thanks man.
- Thread starter
- #46
Thanks, but I still want to wait this out and check back in on it in a month to be sure nothing weird has happened like the ticket being logged with the court for a new date! Otherwise, I hope it's dead in the water.
Definitely a learning experience for me, and hopefully for anybody else reading this,
Definitely a learning experience for me, and hopefully for anybody else reading this,
Glad to hear it's worked out in your favor, Thomas.
I'm of the opinion that the officer didn't forget to file the ticket. They usually turn in everything at the end of their shift. They aren't in the habit of just losing paperwork. He may have reevaluated the situation and decided not to turn it in. Of course, I could be wrong.
I'm of the opinion that the officer didn't forget to file the ticket. They usually turn in everything at the end of their shift. They aren't in the habit of just losing paperwork. He may have reevaluated the situation and decided not to turn it in. Of course, I could be wrong.
Paperwork was likely not filed because it is very lengthy and not worth the officer's time. STL tickets are usually only issued because the officer had some sort of motivation to target you besides STL use issues. Officers have to justify their reasoning for a stop, so they take whatever they can get. I always had a STL permit when I used to wheel in the florence area, but was never asked to show it. We were stopped several times in rigs with no insurance/registration back when that wasn't a big deal on dirt roads. Every time the sheriffs were asking about other situations, but never gave us a ticket, warning, or even asked for an STL permit. I can ask a friend of mine for further clarification (he is a MCSO deputy) if you would like, but my brother in law (PHX PD) said that the paperwork takes months to file between agencies, is ridiculously time consuming on the officers end, and the tickets rarely result in a fine. That being said, avoid the hassle, and just get the permit. The process is a joke, the odds are you will not be cited, but you and the officer will be on your way to better things way quicker if you are stopped and have the permit.
- Thread starter
- #49
Quick update as of today - coming up on year-end: remember that this ticket was issued on May24th.
I kept up on the Desert Ridge Justice Court website to watch the original ticket eventually get posted in July and then 'Adjudicated' shortly thereafter - meaning that the court had seen it, but no new court date was assigned. Then, on November 21st - 6 months after, a 'Long Form' was completed and a new ticket created by the County Attorney's office along with a summons and a Constable coming out to my house to serve it. Being at work, he left a note on my front door stating that a non-response would likely result in issuance of an Arrest Warrant - so I called him immediately. Long story short, I had a new court date for Arraignment today, Dec 15th @ 9a at the same Desert Ridge Justice Court in front of the same Judge as the original ticket referred. Also, the Summons demanded that I get MCSO fingerprints and mug shots down at the downtown office prior to my arraignment - which now includes palm prints and side-of-palm prints in addition to fingertips and entire hands...
Today being the Arraignment when the formal charges are read by the court with me (and my ride-along buddy) physically present, means that the only plea we could enter today was 'guilty' and the fine would be imposed, but the Judge (Clancy Jayne) said flat out that wasn't what we wanted. He went on to explain that the Rancher who leases the Table Mesa State Trust Land had complained to the County Attorney to get MCSO to write tickets in that area due to cattle issues. The Judge even told us his court had seen a 'rash' of State Trust Land No Permit tickets over the past 6 months and he'd seen others work with the County Prosecutor to work out plea deals to a diversion program which included a fine but would not result in a guilty plea to what is still a criminal misdemeanor - which is my primary concern at this point. I told the Judge I took full responsibility for being on STL without the permit and that I had no intention to fight that charge, emphasizing that I just wanted this to be over as quickly as possible.
We were professional and polite, we showed him our STL Permits and I mentioned that I spoke at one of the Copper State Cruiser meetings to alert others in the 4x4 community about Table Mesa Rd and of the need for STL permits in the interest of doing the right thing and he came across as very understanding to the point of being apologetic. He seems to understand that this process is a significant inconvenience for a $15 annual permit ($20 family), but that only the County Prosecutor could work out a deal that didn't include a guilty plea. I asked about 'No Contest' and he said it wasn't a viable plea until the prosecutor could be present.
Given that I refuse to plead guilty to a criminal charge, our next step is a Pre-Trial Hearing in January to stand before the judge and meet with the County Prosecutor, and will see this through to the end. We were released on our own recognizance.
I'm recounting this embarrassing tale in hopes that others will read about my experience and save themselves from this same impact. To say that it's an inconvenience is a serious understatement,
I kept up on the Desert Ridge Justice Court website to watch the original ticket eventually get posted in July and then 'Adjudicated' shortly thereafter - meaning that the court had seen it, but no new court date was assigned. Then, on November 21st - 6 months after, a 'Long Form' was completed and a new ticket created by the County Attorney's office along with a summons and a Constable coming out to my house to serve it. Being at work, he left a note on my front door stating that a non-response would likely result in issuance of an Arrest Warrant - so I called him immediately. Long story short, I had a new court date for Arraignment today, Dec 15th @ 9a at the same Desert Ridge Justice Court in front of the same Judge as the original ticket referred. Also, the Summons demanded that I get MCSO fingerprints and mug shots down at the downtown office prior to my arraignment - which now includes palm prints and side-of-palm prints in addition to fingertips and entire hands...
Today being the Arraignment when the formal charges are read by the court with me (and my ride-along buddy) physically present, means that the only plea we could enter today was 'guilty' and the fine would be imposed, but the Judge (Clancy Jayne) said flat out that wasn't what we wanted. He went on to explain that the Rancher who leases the Table Mesa State Trust Land had complained to the County Attorney to get MCSO to write tickets in that area due to cattle issues. The Judge even told us his court had seen a 'rash' of State Trust Land No Permit tickets over the past 6 months and he'd seen others work with the County Prosecutor to work out plea deals to a diversion program which included a fine but would not result in a guilty plea to what is still a criminal misdemeanor - which is my primary concern at this point. I told the Judge I took full responsibility for being on STL without the permit and that I had no intention to fight that charge, emphasizing that I just wanted this to be over as quickly as possible.
We were professional and polite, we showed him our STL Permits and I mentioned that I spoke at one of the Copper State Cruiser meetings to alert others in the 4x4 community about Table Mesa Rd and of the need for STL permits in the interest of doing the right thing and he came across as very understanding to the point of being apologetic. He seems to understand that this process is a significant inconvenience for a $15 annual permit ($20 family), but that only the County Prosecutor could work out a deal that didn't include a guilty plea. I asked about 'No Contest' and he said it wasn't a viable plea until the prosecutor could be present.
Given that I refuse to plead guilty to a criminal charge, our next step is a Pre-Trial Hearing in January to stand before the judge and meet with the County Prosecutor, and will see this through to the end. We were released on our own recognizance.
I'm recounting this embarrassing tale in hopes that others will read about my experience and save themselves from this same impact. To say that it's an inconvenience is a serious understatement,
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Saddletramp
GOLD Star
Seriously Thomas, if nothing else comes of this you have at least made believers of all of us. Makes me wish that we still could get the permits as before, it used to be included with the CSC membership IRC. I got my new permit in the mail a few weeks ago but the process could be a lot faster if there was a website that would take your money and you could print the permit immediately but it was very fast considering it was done via snail mail.
I hope the whole thing gets resolved with a fine, thinking only positive thoughts.
I hope the whole thing gets resolved with a fine, thinking only positive thoughts.
murf
Lifer
I think youre handling this as professionally and responsibly as possible. just crazy its isted as a criminal misdemeanor.
Thanks again for the heads up. im going ot check right now - It made me think my state permit might be expiring very soon and will have to order another.
Thanks again for the heads up. im going ot check right now - It made me think my state permit might be expiring very soon and will have to order another.
murf
Lifer
Found my permit and have until May. Thought Id post up this literature that comes with the permit.
Living in the Past
SILVER Star
Curious are they any gates that can be left open on Tablet Mesa Roads? Not sure writing tickets to everyone on road who doesn't have a permit is going to solve what ever issues he is having with his cattle. Which to me "cattle issues" is a pretty board statement. I've seen it in Coconino National Forest where ranchers who feel their grazing is more like ownership. From what I seen there the forest service stance was if your having problems with a gate being left open install a cattle guard. If they don't like than someone else will take their grazing lease. I have been on some pretty primitive roads in the middle of nowhere and come to a fence only to find a cattle guard installed. The Feds look at the National Forest as land that can but used by everybody no fees required. The state on the other hand decided that land that was given to them by the Feds when AZ became a state is private land and belongs to the state not the people. Sorry for going off I just can't believe the nightmare this has caused the OP for just driving on Tablet Mesa Road. Anyone know what the fine is for not paying to use boat ramp at Lake Pleasant? You have to drive down a road with multiple signs and place to pay right there. Compared to what the state does to a person for just driving down a all weather road and passing thru not using the land for anything like the boat ramp it should be a $10,000 fine and a year in jail.
LitP; A little off topic - but having a lease often is as good as owning the land, a commercial lease often also has additional clauses requiring paying all costs, including things like any insurance, road maintenance, taxes and compensating for any loss of value at lease end (think car lease - then make it worse for the lessee and you'll get close).
Living in the Past
SILVER Star
On a government lease or private sector? Before retiring I working in publically owned building with over 150,000 Square feet after the second of two expansions. Lease was a $1 a year before and after the expansions. Almost all maintenance was included as well as half the utilities. Many years ago there was a 4X4 club in the valley. They had one of those $1 year lease on State Trust Land. They were required to make some improvements and allow anybody who wanted to use it. I'm sure the 4X4 was carrying insurance to cover anybody who might get hurt. One year the state sold the land with no notice. New owner had a guard on weekends keep people out. This area was between mile post seven and eight on the highway from Morristown to Carefree. Still in the middle of nowhere at least twenty from when they sold it. While the $1 a year lease wasn't the most profitable What they sold the land for as compared to land that was closer the city would have brought way more a acre. To be honest I couldn't swear if the state also had grazing lease on the same land. I believe it was the state that was sued for handing out leases on the good old boy way. Ranchers were leasing the land for next to nothing and uses the cattle issues to try and keep everybody else off the land. But this isn't about using the land but rather crossing on a public road. Even a private land owner has to grant access across their land if they isn't another reasonable way to get around it. If the leaser does any improvements to it I'm guessing it is his choice. Possibly for his use of the property. I guess it is possible as part of the lease maintenance of the road is required. But I first drove down from Flagstaff on interstate 17 in 1971 and the Table Mesa Road was already there. So I know it's not like the current lease holder didn't know about the road when he signed the lease
Bottom line is if the OP and his passenger both had their $15 permit how would that have helped the lease holders cattle issues? Unless I missed something that was the reason given for the MCSO being there in the first place. What a nightmare.
re_guderian
SILVER Star
I wonder how hard it is to get a "grazing lease" and if you even have to verify that you actually are "grazing" anything... come to think of it, my cat eats grass and pukes it back up, does that count?
come to think of it, my cat eats grass and pukes it back up, does that count?
As long as you can prove it isn't a domesticated cat... maybe paint leopard spots on it and claim it as an F3 ??
Good point.
re_guderian
SILVER Star
Man, it's hard to find information on how much these "grazers" actually pay... Latest I could find was the 2012 fiscal year, where the state leased out 8.4 million acres, and took in 2.4 million dollars. Not sure how equally that was distributed, but that's an average of 30 cents an acre per year.
