Build Lexus LX450 Cummins 6bt/NV4500 swap
- Thread starter Wheelingnoob
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More than you'll make
- Thread starter
- #23
It's rated by New Venture to 440ft/lbs but they seem to handle far more than that.
I found it intresting when I worked at a diesel & turbo shop that this motor although rated to make 55hp more than the early p pump 6bt is only rated at 40ft/lbs more. The two trucks on a dyno tell a different story the 215hp p pump trucks always made 100ft/lbs more min than the early 160HP p pump trucks rated at 400ft/lbs.
So I have a feeling Dodge or Cummins limited the advertised torque rating of the 215hp engines to keep New venture engineers happy.
Carry over conversation from other thread.
The 98 is considered top because every year they bumped timing. Even though the hp rating stayed the same. As you stated earlier a tag is just a tag. And actual results vary and could be argued. More timing more top end power to a point, and less low end but more efficient. I want to say my 98 had 15 or 15.5 deg of timing stock. Higher timing also equals harder cold starts. The market in the far north may differ from the US for those reasons. That's why the CPL is king and can't always go by year.
As for expected power I did #10 plate grind loosened the afc spring, added 5x.012 SAC injectors and an he341with 4" exhaust. And let just say the results were awesome. Smoked the stock clutch in about a week.
The afc spring made the biggest throttle feal changes and I dialed it back. It would spool hard with light inputs and equal smoke. It changed the aggressiveness of fuel delivery the most I thought.
Sent from my SM-G900V
The 98 is considered top because every year they bumped timing. Even though the hp rating stayed the same. As you stated earlier a tag is just a tag. And actual results vary and could be argued. More timing more top end power to a point, and less low end but more efficient. I want to say my 98 had 15 or 15.5 deg of timing stock. Higher timing also equals harder cold starts. The market in the far north may differ from the US for those reasons. That's why the CPL is king and can't always go by year.
As for expected power I did #10 plate grind loosened the afc spring, added 5x.012 SAC injectors and an he341with 4" exhaust. And let just say the results were awesome. Smoked the stock clutch in about a week.
The afc spring made the biggest throttle feal changes and I dialed it back. It would spool hard with light inputs and equal smoke. It changed the aggressiveness of fuel delivery the most I thought.
Sent from my SM-G900V
- Thread starter
- #26
Yeah mine is a CPL 2023 and I believe 13.5 deg timing. I may advance it a bit but I want to keep cold starts manageable. We quite often winter camp with no way to plug in block heaters. I may go with a webasto some day but for now the funds are not there.
Time to update your sig line, and subbed of course.
- Thread starter
- #28
I would but can't do it on the moble App and no longer have a computer.
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- Aug 21, 2006
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Wheelingnoob, sorry for your trouble with the other engine. I followed the thread from the beginning. After seeing all the trouble I wondered about the Cummins. It seemed folks were having good luck with it. Excited to follow along with this endeavor.
One problem you won't have is power regardless of what you do.
I don't run an intercooler and have lots of power to spare with 3.54 gears on a well tuned VE pump 6BT. The lack of IC really frees up the space in the engine bay. We added valve springs and the motor will pull 3500+RPM, but it's just never needed-- and I do have a bit of a heavy foot!
We looked at doing the p-pump, but the VE is just so easy to work on and takes up much less real estate in the engine bay (for those without an engine yet, something to think about). Turning the right screws on the VE will get the throttle response and torque well beyond what's needed on this chassis, IMO. With an auto, the 3.54 gears are not a problem for crawling and allow for a leisurely cruise at 80mph. Surely a different deal with a clutch though...With the 4.10s, the 6BT is way out of its best efficiency, which gets real old on the highway.
Couple more pennies for jar...
-Phil
PS-I'm one of the ones that started with a basket case from Duiser mentioned earlier. After a new engine, a lot of new wiring and plumbing, two axle rebuilds, a lot of replaced bolts, new springs, and a paint job, it's actually a darn nice truck now.
I don't run an intercooler and have lots of power to spare with 3.54 gears on a well tuned VE pump 6BT. The lack of IC really frees up the space in the engine bay. We added valve springs and the motor will pull 3500+RPM, but it's just never needed-- and I do have a bit of a heavy foot!
We looked at doing the p-pump, but the VE is just so easy to work on and takes up much less real estate in the engine bay (for those without an engine yet, something to think about). Turning the right screws on the VE will get the throttle response and torque well beyond what's needed on this chassis, IMO. With an auto, the 3.54 gears are not a problem for crawling and allow for a leisurely cruise at 80mph. Surely a different deal with a clutch though...With the 4.10s, the 6BT is way out of its best efficiency, which gets real old on the highway.Couple more pennies for jar...
-Phil
PS-I'm one of the ones that started with a basket case from Duiser mentioned earlier. After a new engine, a lot of new wiring and plumbing, two axle rebuilds, a lot of replaced bolts, new springs, and a paint job, it's actually a darn nice truck now.
- Thread starter
- #31
Yes I was actually wanting to use a 1st Gen VE 6bt but finding one with decent millage was not easy. I found one with 470kms on it for almost the same I payed for this P-pump engine. The pump is huge, I would be worried about it fitting if I had not seen it done already.One problem you won't have is power regardless of what you do.
I don't run an intercooler and have lots of power to spare with 3.54 gears on a well tuned VE pump 6BT. The lack of IC really frees up the space in the engine bay. We added valve springs and the motor will pull 3500+RPM, but it's just never needed-- and I do have a bit of a heavy foot!
Couple more pennies for jar...
-Phil
PS-I'm one of the ones that started with a basket case from Duiser mentioned earlier. After a new engine, a lot of new wiring and plumbing, two axle rebuilds, a lot of replaced bolts, new springs, and a paint job, it's actually a darn nice truck now.
I plan to keep it intercooled, I will free up room in the front of the rad by going manual. So that will make room for it.
Gearing is an issue no doubt, for now I will live with it. I never drive the truck over 60mph anyway. I can't justify $3k in gears, it's a lot of fuel. I may go to 37's when my current tires wear out it will reduce my RPM at cruise but adds weight.
Copy that. Thought I'd live with the gearing too. CJMOON and I went in got a few sets and a slight discount on shipping, etc... I hear ya though... they're spendy. They really are transformative though!
Just curious, and don't mean to interrogate, why intercool when not pulling? How much power are you targeting?
-Phil
Just curious, and don't mean to interrogate, why intercool when not pulling? How much power are you targeting?
-Phil
- Thread starter
- #33
Why not? I plan to run stock power for now, maybe more later. Don't see any reason not to run one. I will be towing but not heavy weight.
Just one of those "keep it simple, stupid" deals. The simpler you can make the requisite power, the better. a "hot air" 6BT seems to generate well more than enough power for these rigs, so why run a complicated intercooler (complicated on a relative basis to not running one) that will really only function on the highway when there's adequate cooling air flowing across the core. On the trail, the Air/Air IC won't provide much benefit since there's not much of a cooling medium (fresh air flow----a fan won't do much)... So then you're toting around an IC, many plumbing unions, weight, slower throttle response and tougher serviceability for not a whole lot of benefit but several potential drawbacks.
If you were building a tow rig and long hauls with a heavy trailer on the highway were the MO, I'd sing a different tune....
-Phil
- Thread starter
- #35
Thanks, I agree with KISS. I just feel do it once do it right even if it means more work. A properly built intercooler system will not have issues blowing couplers. It also helps with efficiency on a diesel.
The most I plan to tow is 5k lbs so no issue.
The denser air from a functioning IC is helpful to power output on all internal combustion, gas too Denser air=more 02=more fuel=more power.... No disagreement there, I'm sure... It's just a matter of what ya need and what you have available. Just my opinion, but we certainly don't need the power that an intercooled 6BT with a p-pump can produce. What's that 500hp and 1200troque? .... and importantly, we don't have air available to transfer heat from the charge air to the atmosphere when on the trail... The latter is a big deal. In racing, we do a lot of airflow studies, and I can tell you first hand that you need 1,000s of CFM airflow through a core to justify running an intercooler--especially on engines this big.
On the trail, with electric fans mounted directly to the IC core itself you'll be lucky get 1500CFM through it. If you're pulling air through it via the radiator fans you won't see a 1,000CFM (probably not even 500)... in either case, nothing like the 4,000+CFM or so you would need to drop IATs under load. You'll only get that airflow and more at speed....
My rambling about this isn't anything to do with doing it right or more or less work. It's more to building the system for the intended use. I'm obviously taking the position that doing it right, for this application, also means less work with the absence of the IC, but that's just a coincidence! Believe me, we take the long way 'round more than I'd like but it's only when required I've had manifolds casted up (yes casted) last time I need an intercooler on something because I wasn't happy with available options! Again, just something to kick around the camp fire a bit before you start cutting...
-Phil
Denser air=more 02=more fuel=more power.... No disagreement there, I'm sure... It's just a matter of what ya need and what you have available. Just my opinion, but we certainly don't need the power that an intercooled 6BT with a p-pump can produce. What's that 500hp and 1200troque? .... and importantly, we don't have air available to transfer heat from the charge air to the atmosphere when on the trail... The latter is a big deal. In racing, we do a lot of airflow studies, and I can tell you first hand that you need 1,000s of CFM airflow through a core to justify running an intercooler--especially on engines this big.On the trail, with electric fans mounted directly to the IC core itself you'll be lucky get 1500CFM through it. If you're pulling air through it via the radiator fans you won't see a 1,000CFM (probably not even 500)... in either case, nothing like the 4,000+CFM or so you would need to drop IATs under load. You'll only get that airflow and more at speed....
My rambling about this isn't anything to do with doing it right or more or less work. It's more to building the system for the intended use. I'm obviously taking the position that doing it right, for this application, also means less work with the absence of the IC, but that's just a coincidence! Believe me, we take the long way 'round more than I'd like but it's only when required
I've had manifolds casted up (yes casted) last time I need an intercooler on something because I wasn't happy with available options! Again, just something to kick around the camp fire a bit before you start cutting...-Phil
- Thread starter
- #37
Good points, and I agree. One point is that off road going slow speeds I never see boost to the point it would need cooling anyways on my current diesel. I do however need it on the hwy and mountain passes around here. Will I need it on the 6bt.... Maybe not but it will not do any harm. If I can pick up some efficiency then then great. I'm sure there will be some benefit to runing it on a 7300lb brick up a few of the mountain passes around here. I'm sure I can rig up a way to measure pre and post Ic temps to see if and what the benifit it is.
I just can't see myself putting this motor in non intercooled.
I just can't see myself putting this motor in non intercooled.
Having recently done an intercooler on my truck. Get the IC and pipe work done while everything is stripped down.
Agreed, IC is for road driving not off roading but it won't be a problem in the latter so might as well add it.
It's not like if you blow an IC or a boot your dead in the water. I see very little downside and lots to be had from an IC.
It's not like if you blow an IC or a boot your dead in the water. I see very little downside and lots to be had from an IC.