Lucky you, I've reached the "more power" point already.
Stalling cutters and friction welding aluminium when I get too aggressive with the feeds and depths.
Builds Isuzu 4HE1TC into FJ62 (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter astr
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Lucky you, I've reached the "more power" point already.
Stalling cutters and friction welding aluminium when I get too aggressive with the feeds and depths.
- Thread starter
- #182
Lucky you, I've reached the "more power" point already.
Stalling cutters and friction welding aluminium when I get too aggressive with the feeds and depths.
Contrary to some thinking, I'm a firm believer in "There is no such thing as too much horsepower" whether it applies to machinery or vehicles! Although it does have a tendency to increase carnage!
By the way, I saw a great demonstration of friction welding of aluminum (actually, they call it stir welding) that they are using to fab the fuselage of the Eclipse BizJet Innovations - Eclipse Aviation
Hey that's just what I was doing. Just in a unintended way with unwanted consequences and a lower tech method.
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- #184
Victory over de mill - a spacer is born!
I think I finally got control of the mill.
It was touch and go for a while but I managed to make a spacer. I still need to tweak the program a bit to avoid some of the conflicts that I experienced between the spindle and the hold down clamps. But basically it worked. The first photo is of the finished spacer. The second is of the spacer still mounted on the mill table just after the last cut.
I was quite surprised how well it came out. The alignment dowel were a finger press fit and aligned perfectly with the corresponding holes in the transmission case and T-case adapter.
Next step is to assemble the hybrid transmission (Isuzu AW450 to A440F T-case). I'm itching to get started but, unfortunately, I will be out of town for the next three weeks.
I think I finally got control of the mill.
It was touch and go for a while but I managed to make a spacer. I still need to tweak the program a bit to avoid some of the conflicts that I experienced between the spindle and the hold down clamps. But basically it worked. The first photo is of the finished spacer. The second is of the spacer still mounted on the mill table just after the last cut. I was quite surprised how well it came out. The alignment dowel were a finger press fit and aligned perfectly with the corresponding holes in the transmission case and T-case adapter.
Next step is to assemble the hybrid transmission (Isuzu AW450 to A440F T-case). I'm itching to get started but, unfortunately, I will be out of town for the next three weeks.
This looks like a great alternative to going with a 4BT (especially if you want to avoid having to do a SOA to fit the oil pan). I'm curious to see how you manage to get the starter to fit. I would figure a 1" body lift and some massaging of the tranny hump's sheet metal would be the best way to go). Looks like after that, the only real obstacles you'll have are finding a good way to route the exhaust and getting the instruments to work properly.
I'll be following this one closely. I'm also curious to see how much you end up spending when all is said and done. I think if I were to do it myself, I'd go for an Extreme A440 from Rodney mated to the bellhousing and TC from the AW450. Then again a stock A440 with a custom valve body from Rodney might handle it beautifully as well.
I'll be following this one closely. I'm also curious to see how much you end up spending when all is said and done. I think if I were to do it myself, I'd go for an Extreme A440 from Rodney mated to the bellhousing and TC from the AW450. Then again a stock A440 with a custom valve body from Rodney might handle it beautifully as well.
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- #187
I'm avoiding the starter issue for the time being. I got faith that a solution will come upon me. If not, my fall back position is put it all back in the Isuzu and make that into a 4x4
I really haven't looked into if I'll need to go SOA. I'm going to try without but eventually I want SOA so its no big deal for me.IIRC, the exhaust on the 3B is on the same side as the 4HE1 so I would expect to follow the same routing.
I see no problem with the instruments. The only ones that are engine specific are the tach, oil pressure and temp gauges. The oil pressure and temp gauges will require, at the most, using the 3FE senders. I played around with the tach and found that I can use an abs wheel sensor as a pickup (got a few from 80-series axles) in conjuction with the stock tach. All that is required are three notches or bumps on the flywheel or the harmonic balancer. My test setup worked perfectly. Once I get it on the engine, I'll post the final configuration. This setup even uses the stock 3FE engine wiring.
So far I haven't spent much cash other than the cost of the wrecked NPR truck. I've bought other stuff that wasn't directly relate to the conversion such as the McNamarra gear and rebuild kits for the T-case and transmission. Might as well do it all while I have everything apart.
If you go back to the beginning of this thread, you will see that I did get the A440F to work with the 4HE1. I didn't spend a lot of time trying to fine tune the setup, primarily to improve the shift points. But it worked. Truck (NPR) ran fine with the combination. Keep in mind, that the best approach to a swap like this is to get a complete donor truck which most likely will come with the AW450 automatic. So you have a heavy duty transmission already matched to the characteristics of the engine.
I'm avoiding the starter issue for the time being. I got faith that a solution will come upon me. If not, my fall back position is put it all back in the Isuzu and make that into a 4x4
You haven't checked if the 60 front axle will fit the Isuzu springs yet?
I'm sure dropping the 60 body on will be a walk in the park.
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- #189
Dougal - I think you got something there - how kool would a Land Cruiser be with duallies
I saw where you did that. I like the idea of using the A440's core with the AW450's bellhousing and torque converter. I am curious though if the stall if the same (or close) between both torque converters. If it's the same and the AW450's TC will still lock up at about 52 MPH like the A440's, I think one of Rodney's A440's with a specially modified valve body would be ideal for the 4HE1. I wonder where the 4HE1's power band is, compared to the 3FE. Using that would give you the best idea of where to have the shift points (towards the top of the power band I imagine would be ideal). I think the 3rd gear lockup that Rodney can give you is more than adequate for this diesel.
I'm also curious as to how, stock to stock, it compares to a 4BT with regards to HP and torque.
Edit: I found a spec sheet here that covers the engine and other aspects of the NPR trucks. I couldn't find any actual spec sheet for the 4BT, but I found this on Wikipedia and thought I'd throw it up here for s***s and giggles:
With a cylinder bore of 4.02 inches (102 mm) and a piston stroke of 4.72 inches (120 mm), the engine had a wet weight of 745 pounds (338 kg). In recent years it produced 130 hp (97 kW) and 355 lb·ft (481 N·m) of torque.
This is Vs. 175 peak HP and 345 peak ft-lbs of torque for the Isuzu engine. Makes the Isuzu look like a damn good alternative.
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- #191
The lockup speed on the torque converter is a function of the valve body/TCU, not the torque converter itself. Stall rpm is controlled by the torque converter construction.
I don't know what Rodney does to his valve bodies but I've read reports of harsh shifts. Since all the control logic for an A440F is in the valve body, my guess is that he may be locking up the TC in 3rd and then not releasing for the shift to OD, resulting in the harsh shifts. That is only speculation on my part. I'd be interested to find out other's actual experiences.
From what I've been told the shifts are hard because he sets up the VB to prevent slippage during shifts in order to reduce wear on the friction surfaces in the tranny. This is how the TCI, B&M, etc. shift improver kits work. I think as long as you have good spline engagement a-la a McNamara gear, and the splines aren't worn enough to allow any freeplay, you'd be good to go with the hard shifts (that is, if it's not too uncomfortable to drive/ride in). I'd be changing that stuff as soon as I feel any hint of a clunk though.
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I've just completed a bit of research and found some information that might be helpful for those of you considering this swap (and perhaps you as well ASTR).
First off, I'm in the planning stages of doing this for my 80 series within a year or two. I'm not only interested in the 4HE1-TC, but also the later model 4HK-1TC (5.2L model, 205hp @2400RPM, 441lb/ft @ 1850RPM). I've discovered that both engines use the same transmission (Aisin 450-43LE). In '09 or '10, they switched to a 6 speed with double overdrive, Aisin 465 (which I'm also interested in).
I found all of this out through the following link:
Isuzu Truck Service
This is the body builder's guide for the trucks broken down by year but also provides full and complete specs for each year of truck, which is most useful for us. I've found it's best to download the PDFs rather than try and view them online.
I also located this PDF online that seems to cover some of the differences between the A440F, A442F, and A450-43LE - all in one PDF!
http://www.shinseiauto.com/japanese/transtar/ata440f04.pdf
What I still haven't been able to find out is if the 5.2L motors have the rear-facing starter as the 4.75L motor does - if it doesn't, it's beginning to look like the 4HK-TC might be a better option if you don't want to add body lift and use a BFH just to get the starter to fit
I'm also going to continue researching to see how close the A465 is to the A442F - don't know if it was ever designed to attach to a 4x4 TC. How cool would it be to have a 6-speed in your LC? I wonder what that combo would get on the highway in the comparatively light and more aerodynamic LC?
-Phil
First off, I'm in the planning stages of doing this for my 80 series within a year or two. I'm not only interested in the 4HE1-TC, but also the later model 4HK-1TC (5.2L model, 205hp @2400RPM, 441lb/ft @ 1850RPM). I've discovered that both engines use the same transmission (Aisin 450-43LE). In '09 or '10, they switched to a 6 speed with double overdrive, Aisin 465 (which I'm also interested in).
I found all of this out through the following link:
Isuzu Truck Service
This is the body builder's guide for the trucks broken down by year but also provides full and complete specs for each year of truck, which is most useful for us. I've found it's best to download the PDFs rather than try and view them online.
I also located this PDF online that seems to cover some of the differences between the A440F, A442F, and A450-43LE - all in one PDF!
http://www.shinseiauto.com/japanese/transtar/ata440f04.pdf
What I still haven't been able to find out is if the 5.2L motors have the rear-facing starter as the 4.75L motor does - if it doesn't, it's beginning to look like the 4HK-TC might be a better option if you don't want to add body lift and use a BFH just to get the starter to fit
I'm also going to continue researching to see how close the A465 is to the A442F - don't know if it was ever designed to attach to a 4x4 TC. How cool would it be to have a 6-speed in your LC? I wonder what that combo would get on the highway in the comparatively light and more aerodynamic LC?
-Phil
the 4hk1 has a rear facing starter as well. strange that you get conventional autos over there, while we get automated manuals, would think there would be more of a market for them in the US. we haven't had normal autos since we got the 4hk1 in 05
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- #195
The differences between the 4HE1 & the 4HK1, besides the larger displacement are: 2 vs. 4 valves per cylinder and conventional inline IP vs. electronically-controlled fuel rail injection. From what I can tell, the upgrade from 195 to 205 hp in the later 4HK1's was due to a change to VNT turbo. At the same time, they added the particulate afterburner and a water-cooled EGR system.
I suspect that the 4HK1 would be a better choice for a swap if you want to keep it in the stock configuration. Any performance upgrades would most likely require ECU mods and I am not aware that anyone offers "chip" solutions for the Isuzu's.
On the other hand, the 4HE1 can be tinkered with in the same manner as any conventional diesel. As the 4HE1 and 4HK1 are the same basic block, it may be possible to replace the fuel rail injection system on the 4HK1 with an inline IP and injectors from the 4HE1 so the conventional mod techniques could then be applied to the 4HK1. This is strictly speculation on my part and I have no specific information to suggest that this is doable.
As far as transmission choices, any solution that fits the 4HE1 will apply to the 4HK1.
Great info! Thanks for posting it. And yes, like jb said, the starter is in the same awkward location on the 4HK1.
From what I read, the A465 is a monster. It is also being used in Dodge trucks under the AS68RC designation. More info on the A465 here: http://www.atra.com/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home&CONTENTID=1694&TEMPLATE=/CM/ContentDisplay.cfm
A brief description: The AS68RC is a 6-speed, rear wheel drive automatic transmission, with a 26,000 lb. gross capacity rating.
With a rating this high, the torque converter and geartrain have to be extremely heavy duty. This unit is capable of
standing up to 730 lb-ft of input torque, although Dodge rates the 3500 truck for 565 lb-ft of input torque. The unit weighs in at 400 lbs without the torque converter.
standing up to 730 lb-ft of input torque, although Dodge rates the 3500 truck for 565 lb-ft of input torque. The unit weighs in at 400 lbs without the torque converter.
It would be nice to get our hands on a A465 to see if we could mate it to a LC TC. Unfortunately, since it's so new, I can guarantee you won't touch one for under a couple grand. I think an LC with a Isuzu diesel and 6 speed would be magical. And since it can be bolted to the 4HE1...
EDIT - just pulled this out of the PDF
"You may also find a PTO unit attached or just a blank plate, and some units are bolted to a 4WD transfer case."
All of this is good food for thought...
-Phil
- Thread starter
- #197
...EDIT - just pulled this out of the PDF
"You may also find a PTO unit attached or just a blank plate, and some units are bolted to a 4WD transfer case."
All of this is good food for thought...
-Phil
One of the options on the Dodge version is 4x4 so some sort of T-case is available. I'm sure it would have a centered rear output and I don't know what side the front drop would be.
Let's see: Isuzu engine, Dodge automatic & T-case, maybe some matching D60 axles. So we have left a LC body and frame? Maybe it would just be easier to hang a Land Cruiser badge on a Dodge truck
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- #198
I'm trying to tie up any loose ends before starting on the final assembly of the hybrid transmission. These are issues that I still need to address:
I need to extend the rod that engages the parking pawl inside the transmission. It need to be about 0.5" longer.
The A440F transmission shifter has seven positions (P-R-N-D-3-2-L) whereas the AW450 has only six (P-R-N-D-2-1) plus an OD disable button. Also the locations of the neutral lockout switch and the transmission shift levers are on opposite sides of the the two transmission. It may be possible to modify the A440F shifter to work with the AW450 but it might be easier to just use the whole shifter mechanism out of the Isuzu truck and just shorten the cable.
The AW450 has two vehicle speed sensors, the primary that fits into the speedometer drive hole and drives both the TCM and the electric speedometer and a secondary sensor that only connects to the TCM and is used as a backup if the primary sensor fails. The secondary sensor is a variable reluctance magnetic pickup that triggers from the cogs on the park gear.
I plan to drive the FJ62's speedometer with the stock mechanical cable from the T-case and use the VSS that, I think, is built into the stock speedometer as the primary for the TCM. For the secondary sensor, I may have to modify the T-case adapter so that I can mount the original AW450 sensor next to the park gear. Originally, the gear was housed in the AW450 extension housing which has been replaced by the T-case adapter.
I don't think I'm missing anything?
Edit: Forgot about the Neutral position on the shifters. Just looking through a A442F manual and it appears that the AW450 might be more similar to the A442F than the A440F.
I need to extend the rod that engages the parking pawl inside the transmission. It need to be about 0.5" longer.
The A440F transmission shifter has seven positions (P-R-N-D-3-2-L) whereas the AW450 has only six (P-R-N-D-2-1) plus an OD disable button. Also the locations of the neutral lockout switch and the transmission shift levers are on opposite sides of the the two transmission. It may be possible to modify the A440F shifter to work with the AW450 but it might be easier to just use the whole shifter mechanism out of the Isuzu truck and just shorten the cable.
The AW450 has two vehicle speed sensors, the primary that fits into the speedometer drive hole and drives both the TCM and the electric speedometer and a secondary sensor that only connects to the TCM and is used as a backup if the primary sensor fails. The secondary sensor is a variable reluctance magnetic pickup that triggers from the cogs on the park gear.
I plan to drive the FJ62's speedometer with the stock mechanical cable from the T-case and use the VSS that, I think, is built into the stock speedometer as the primary for the TCM. For the secondary sensor, I may have to modify the T-case adapter so that I can mount the original AW450 sensor next to the park gear. Originally, the gear was housed in the AW450 extension housing which has been replaced by the T-case adapter.
I don't think I'm missing anything?
Edit: Forgot about the Neutral position on the shifters. Just looking through a A442F manual and it appears that the AW450 might be more similar to the A442F than the A440F.
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Tapage
Club 4X4 Panamá
maybe you already now .. but in the A442F there is a black and white cables on the main wiring harness out of the tranny shifter position sensor. Those conected are the neutral safety switch .. ( 10 gauge IIRC )
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- #200
On the A440F, the neutral safety switch also has contacts that turn on the backup lights. On the AW450, the switch is much more complex in that it has contacts for every shift position. These contacts tell the TCM which gear has been selected. I don't have a wiring diagram for the A442F, but I would suspect that the electronic version of the A442F would have a similar switch as the AW450. It also looks like the neutral safety switch on the A442F is mounted on the left (driver's) side of the transmission, same as the AW450. Is that true?
Looking at the A442F manual, I see that the park gear is the same as the AW450 in that it does not contain a governor as does the A440F. It also has the secondary speed sensor, like the AW450, mounted next to the park gear in the T-case adapter.
This make me wonder if it would be possible to use an A442F T-case adapter instead of modifying the A440F T-case adapter.
Does anyone know if they are interchageable? Or maybe a better question to ask would be: Can you mount a split T-case from a FJ62 on the back of an A442F?
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