For John. N74L vs N101

[dclee]

Oh, and Derek, the 80's use of the Bilstein 7100 14" travel and the valving is on the 80's list. As far as I know there are at least 4 people running them.

Thanks Clown. I can't believe I got the model number right... Anyone want to buy a set of four OME L's?

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

Ok...I give up..Its funny how, even though there is a market for a product...no-one takes the time to make it readily available...unless, of course, there are several thousand people asking for it at the same time !!

And dont give me that " it has to be relativley profitable in order to produce" crap !!

My point is..build it and they will buy it !!

...

OK, we wont give you any "we do what we do to make a living" crap, if you dont give us any "that is way to dear to do that way" or "thats not worth that much to get what I want" when i tell you how easy it is to find a good shop with a fabricator, and tell them what you want, and have them make it for you..... then its job done!!!

 

[SINCITY100]

OK, we wont give you any "we do what we do to make a living" crap, if you dont give us any "that is way to dear to do that way" or "thats not worth that much to get what I want" when i tell you how easy it is to find a good shop with a fabricator, and tell them what you want, and have them make it for you..... then its job done!!!

Sounds like the EASY way out to me......

Thats OK...Someone ELSE will make the big bucks off of us 100 owners ! ;p

 

[tabraha]

Darren, I see where the 10mm body lift is allowing for more compression now. Thanks Dan and Darren both. I'm slowly piecing things together in this empty head of mine.

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

Sounds like the EASY way out to me......

Thats OK...Someone ELSE will make the big bucks off of us 100 owners ! ;p

Well, you have said the same thing as me really, spend the bucks, get what you want, which part of that is stopping you from getting what you want? where ever you decide to spend it, as i pointed out.

Got 7 more 100ifs to do this coming week, actually, we would struggle to fit any more 100's in .

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

I still can not grasp why you would approach fitting shocks "off the shelf" for a different application, slap them on a fairly modified suspension setup of springs and not bother to actually do it the way the rest of the world does - actually measure the compressed distance between the shock mounts and the extended distance

I mean how hard is that? And once you know those measurements you could then choose the appropriate compressed/extended length of shock and then go about figuring out the valving, etc. This would also be the time to consider modifying the shock mounts to suit your needs/desires.

I brought this up previously as I've never seen any numbers from how much shock travel is getting used. Like when that tire is stuffed how long is the shock? Is the shock truly maxed out in length or is something else limiting travel? How do you know if you don't measure the shock?

Also, this is where Darren's 10-mm body lift makes a difference in how much up travel can be accomplished.

John, please start carrying around a tape measure!

Oh, and Derek, the 80's use of the Bilstein 7100 14" travel and the valving is on the 80's list. As far as I know there are at least 4 people running them.

Darren, the Fox's are very well praised by the pre-runner folks out here in the desert and by the Rover folks - go figure.

Don't care measuring. Don't care about travel. Don't care if people don't believe.
I had a thought of trying L-shocks on the 100. They work on an 80. Would they work on a 100? If they don't, I'm out $200. Big deal!

What I do care about...they make a SUBSTANTIAL difference off road. That's why I posted the positive results. That's all that matters.

0.6 body lift retainer L N droop stuff travel = Could care less. It just works. If I'm the only one in the USA with this I'm REALLY lucky!

 

[SINCITY100]

Well, you have said the same thing as me really, spend the bucks, get what you want, which part of that is stopping you from getting what you want? where ever you decide to spend it, as i pointed out.

Got 7 more 100ifs to do this coming week, actually, we would struggle to fit any more 100's in .

Sounds like you are overwhelmed with 100 business...Hmm...

NOW I can see why you dont have the time to mass produce anything...

 

[ShottsUZJ100]

because you can move the amount of travel up or down as much as you like, but if the total travel is the same amount, it wont go any further up the ramp.

Did you miss my pictures? Ramp? Oh my god....a buddy measured me at over 720. POW! (He's a Jeeper though)

 

[FirstToy]

I think there is alot of good info in this thread that is relevant to any suspension novice wanting to modify their rigs, imo.

I appreciate the viewpoint that you must look at the entire suspension for true performance (I think this is what Christo was gently nudging Shotts to do in the beginning of the thread, and not so gently by DMC )

Don't let forum personalities make you defensive towards an opinion. Look at what Shotts has done and what others have done- I think you can absorb them and make your 100 perform better based on all the info . Christo, Darren and Shotts all are posting about improving the travel. Put it in the mental blender and see what happens!

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

Sounds like you are overwhelmed with 100 business...Hmm...

NOW I can see why you dont have the time to mass produce anything...

We dont "mass produce" anything, we create vehicles the customer wants, in a balanced form, that suits the use, rather than just bolt on parts out of a catalogue, we dont even supply our parts to anyone but trained distributors or installers, so our products reliability doesnt get blamed for booty fab installs by people who dont understand, we arent for the masses, niche market, I guess you call us, for those who want more than the average bear.

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

Don't care measuring. Don't care about travel. Don't care if people don't believe.

Like everything, you only get back what you put in i guess, but i would say all your previous posts about how much travel does matter , but we have now got a post from you which didnt say "almost" nearly" or "close to" . [unless "dont care' means "dont know how" in US english version ]

If .6" extra travel smokes your wheels, imagine what getting the total 2.6" extra travel with a little more work could do for you , might "almost" out travel an 80

 

[Greg B]

Well, i spelled out an easy conversion, and what we offer standard has the same travel, without the spacer, so Im not sure what you mean here, I dont know if you have ever tried a 10mm body lift, but it uses the original bolts, and prevents the bull bar and rear bar from connecting with the panels when they get hit wheeling. given your limited experience though, from what your trying to say, becoming obvious, i will cut you some slack.


It is inferior, its valving, and build quality suck, and it has .6" more travel with the 50mm spacer.



Well "better" is the eye of the beholder I guess, and given you havent been able to be involved with anything we do, all I can go by is facts and data, from a much bigger core sample than one.... before seat of the pants of the individual, which doesnt support the data, but given you seem to have a limited knowledge on this subject, see above. You go for your .6" improverment, Im sure it will be good,.... because you thought so, as it would seem from what you have said, bolting on a spacer and a shock is within your realm of comprehension.

Dont forget to let us know how it goes.

You can question my experience all you want. See, the thing is, I'm not claiming to be a "know it all" with vast amounts of experience. I'm not bashing anyone's ideas. I'm simply questioning what makes you an expert. I don't know you and most here probably don't either. You haven't posted much here and you've shown little in this thread up until now on actual results.

My BS meter was going off big time. There are lots of people on the web that claim a lot without really doing it. I'm not a trusting person and I don't take people's opinions as fact unless they back them up with evidence. You, on the other hand make blanket statements about things without backing them up with real data. You may have a lot of data to support your opinions, but you aren't posting it up. You may be the best fabricator in the whole world, but if you throw your "opinion" around without supporting it, it doesn't carry much weight.

At the beginning of this discussion, if you would have given some real, measurable data for us to go with your opinion, I wouldn't have questioned you the way I did. I appreciate anyone that can offer real solutions that make the 100 better.

I still don't see what is better about your body lift if it is providing the same amount of travel as the N74L. Whether you achieve that travel with a bump-stop extension or a body lift, you still have the same amount of travel, No?

 

[Greg B]

For the same reason more droop is, because both contribute to your total travel. Johns suspension tavels within.6" of the last shock he had fitted, it just moves up and down in a new plane 50mm lower than previous, because it goes up 50mm less, and comes down 60mm more, so total pretty much same for the effort, which is most noticable on a ramp, because you can move the amount of travel up or down as much as you like, but if the total travel is the same amount, it wont go any further up the ramp.

This is the part you are missing. John lost 2 inches of travel on the N101's he was running because he had to add the bump-stop extension to run the 35's. Then when he added the N74L's, he gained that 2 inches of travel back along with the additional .6". In his circumstance, this was a "real, usable gain" for John. No one else here on Mud had ever posted anything else to expand on the standard OME setup.

John needs to run at least 20mm bump stop spacer for that shock, but that would improve up travel by 30mm [1 1/4"] with the extra .6" making around 1 3/4" extra travel, and a 10mm body lift would mean the tyre has more room to be compressed, which would also mean you could space the shock up the extra 10mm, and them you only need a 10mm bump stop spacer, so you then gain another 10mm of travel, increasing your total gain at the rear to over 2 1/8" , and then, if you cut the thread off flush with the nut, you could gain another 1/2" travel by removing the current 10mm bump stop spacer, improving total rear travel by 2 3/4" [aprox] but if the tyre touches an area that doesnt hurt the tyre, then let them rub, I say, because you then get an audible warning in the drivers seat, that your about to run out of travel

Why didn't you explain this to us the first time you started bashing John's ideas? See, this is usable, real data. This supports your opinion and explains in one paragraph how to add more travel to the N74L or any other longer shock for that matter.

The 100 is pretty new to the off-road crowd here and hasn't gotten a lot of attention. If you have these ideas or methods that help, why wouldn't you offer that up instead of just bashing the few that have tried to do something different?

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

This is the part you are missing. John lost 2 inches of travel on the N101's he was running because he had to add the bump-stop extension to run the 35's.

No he didnt, i added other ideas he could of done here, which could of made the same amount of travel, he didnt "had to" do any of the mods.

Why didn't you explain this to us the first time you started bashing John's ideas? See, this is usable, real data. This supports your opinion and explains in one paragraph how to add more travel to the N74L or any other longer shock for that matter.

I gave you guys more credit for underdstanding suspension, than I should have, it would seem, and didnt want to be stating the obvious.

The 100 is pretty new to the off-road crowd here and hasn't gotten a lot of attention. If you have these ideas or methods that help, why wouldn't you offer that up instead of just bashing the few that have tried to do something different?

I wasnt "bashing" anyone, I was trying to prevent everyone being bludgeoned by post after post, by someone who now admits they dont care about travel, or measurements, into thinking .6" extra travel was a car changing suspension mod to the 100 cruiser, when for a little more effort, you could actually gain all of the extra shock length in increased travel.

There is always more than one way to skin a cat, and its up to the person requiring the cat to be skinned, to work out what suits them, some will go with the way they were shown, some will question what they were shown, and some will do it differently every time, depending on the situation, but the person who thinks about what they have to achieve, assesses the situation, and how best to achieve it, will usually end up with the cat skinned to best suit the requirement.

 

[100 TD]

.....I'm simply questioning what makes you an expert. I don't know you and most here probably don't either. You haven't posted much here ........

I'm sure he's been around a long time with lots of posts previously as "the shed guy" and has had a fair bit of experience.
http://www.the-shed.net/

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

I still don't see what is better about your body lift if it is providing the same amount of travel as the N74L. Whether you achieve that travel with a bump-stop extension or a body lift, you still have the same amount of travel, No?

what your questioning here, is the point of the whole thread since I first posted, adding a 2" block to the bump stop and a longer shock makes for the same amount of travel, that is correct.

But, by adding a 10mm lift, and a mount mod, you could actually improve the amount of travel available, as i explained, and you responded to above, rather than just move the same amount of travel into a different up and down finishing point.

Perhaps if you spent less time questioning people you think you need to question, and more time looking under your car, with a tape measure, you could understand, and comprehend the obvious, so I dont have to try and expain it for you, when you cant comprehend whats being said.

I will continue to respond to any legitimate question from you regarding these sort of mods, that show you are spending some time to understand what your suspension does, but I think, until your experience expands, Im continually trying to state the obvious here to you, as you selectivly take parts of posts to question.

Good luck with it.

 

[Greg B]

No he didnt, i added other ideas he could of done here, which could of made the same amount of travel, he didnt "had to" do any of the mods.

I give up on this one. It's pretty obvious to me that there was a long progression to the mods John did and if you take that into consideration it was good for his 100. We don't have to agree; I'll let it go, I swear.

I gave you guys more credit for underdstanding suspension, than I should have, it would seem, and didnt want to be stating the obvious.

This is a TECH forum with many members, all of us at different levels of experience. Don't assume that everyone here is some kind of expert. There are many here that don't know anything about suspensions that learn a lot from threads like this one.

I wasnt "bashing" anyone, I was trying to prevent everyone being bludgeoned by post after post, by someone who now admits they dont care about travel, or measurements, into thinking .6" extra travel was a car changing suspension mod to the 100 cruiser, when for a little more effort, you could actually gain all of the extra shock length in increased travel.

It's obvious we've beat this to death. :shotts: Let's just agree to disagree and move on.

There is always more than one way to skin a cat, and its up to the person requiring the cat to be skinned, to work out what suits them, some will go with the way they were shown, some will question what they were shown, and some will do it differently every time, depending on the situation, but the person who thinks about what they have to achieve, assesses the situation, and how best to achieve it, will usually end up with the cat skinned to best suit the requirement.

I agree. Thanks for sticking with this thread and giving us the information you have; no matter how hard it was to pull it out of you.

 

[ats4x4dotcom]

This is a TECH forum with many members, all of us at different levels of experience. Don't assume that everyone here is some kind of expert. There are many here that don't know anything about suspensions that learn a lot from threads like this one.

If everyone here was an expert, they would of seen johns .6" improvement the same way i did.......

Now your beginning to understand why I posted about the shock not really gaining anything, regardless of the claims, which have come with no other information other than an admission he doesnt care about travel, or measurements, but I dont see you questioning his posts, like you have mine.

 

[Greg B]

If everyone here was an expert, they would of seen johns .6" improvement the same way i did.......

Now your beginning to understand why I posted about the shock not really gaining anything, regardless of the claims, which have come with no other information other than an admission he doesnt care about travel, or measurements, but I dont see you questioning his posts, like you have mine.

I didn't have to question John's posts, there was already about 10 other guys doing that already. You were just the only one claiming you had a better method for the same travel.

 

[Greg B]

Perhaps if you spent less time questioning people you think you need to question, and more time looking under your car, with a tape measure, you could understand, and comprehend the obvious, so I dont have to try and expain it for you, when you cant comprehend whats being said.

I will continue to respond to any legitimate question from you regarding these sort of mods, that show you are spending some time to understand what your suspension does, but I think, until your experience expands, Im continually trying to state the obvious here to you, as you selectivly take parts of posts to question.

Good luck with it.

I've never claimed to be an expert on this, but I will continue to question people's methods until they show that their method's are legitimate. It's the only way one can gain anything useful on the web. But discussion is a big part of it. Threads like this give a lot of useful info to all of us.

Good luck to you too.