FOR 3.5" lift install

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little boss, i had the exact same vibration with my DC shaft in. I was running too much caster correction (5.6 and 5.4 degrees) on a j/medium spring lift.

It was an almost harmonic type vibration. Real buzzy feeling.

Finally took the plates off and pressed slee's 3 degree bushings in using landtank's alignment template. Put the stock shaft back in and it's smooth as silk. I have yet to get an alignment. I had/have the j springs up front, medium in rear, with bull bar and 12,500lb winch.
 
little boss, i had the exact same vibration with my DC shaft in. I was running too much caster correction (5.6 and 5.4 degrees) on a j/medium spring lift.

It was an almost harmonic type vibration. Real buzzy feeling.

Finally took the plates off and pressed slee's 3 degree bushings in using landtank's alignment template. Put the stock shaft back in and it's smooth as silk. I have yet to get an alignment. I had/have the j springs up front, medium in rear, with bull bar and 12,500lb winch.

Would that be the problem considering posts 38 and 47?

Edit: modified post references based on clean=up
 
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No the castor is ideal or perfect spec, and the performance of the truck shows that. With 35s you want 2.5 to 3* castor.

Remember I am going a little custom here. I could have just got the standard 3 to 3.5 inch kit and put in Frankies 3* bushings and had very little vibs but the castor would not be to spec. And that is not ok to me.

I made the decision to go semi custom in the so called “no mans land” knowing that it would not be easy and that it was a risk. I also knew that if I could get it right that I would be very happy with it.

All we have to do is figure out the drive line thing and I think it can be none. I have talked to a lot of people about this and a couple 4x4 shops in town. It sounds like bad drive shafts are fairly common for them. One shop owner told me that they got a DC shaft for a jeep put it in and had vibrations so he sent it down to sac to be rebalanced this cost him about $90 or so but, still had vibrations. Then he sent it to a place in Arizona and the guy there said that it was way out and that someone would have to be on crack to not see it this cost another $100. So it cost him $200 to find out that it was bad. He put a new one in and no vibrations.

:beer:
 
Would that be the problem considering posts 38 and 47?

tough to say. I was in "no man's land" with mine. I think that landtank about has this thing figured out, but i also think there is a directly proportionate ratio of ride height and caster angles. That's pretty obvious, but it makes all the diffrence. With the OME CC bushings, i was short on caster (zero degrees). With the plates i was heavy on caster. at first, my ride height was higher because i didn't have an ARB or winch up front. when this was the case the grrrr wasn't too bad. As the front end squated down with the added weight, i was getting a really bad grrrrr with the stock shaft and a buzzy vibration with the DC shaft.

But, i had slee's plates and not Landtank's custom plates. Not saying slee's are bad at all, but landtank takes into account your driveline angles and then tailors the plates for your truck.

Edit: modified post references based on clean-up
 
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The OME is not progressive (except for the OME866 that is a 100 series spring, that could be used in the back of a 80). On the FOR springs, Nay mentioned that it is, however even on the latest picture on their site it does not appear to be progressive.

The progressive bit is not multiple winds - from a design perspective it lengthens the coil to prevent unseating at full droop. I'm not sure how much you see from a loaded/unloaded on that basis, if anything.

A couple of other things - the Bilstein piston is 19mm, so it's bigger than OME. My personal experience on washboard is that Bilstein has less fade and provides better control than OME - an observation probably supported by the support Bilstein has in the offroad racing community. Of course a 5100 is not a 7100, but my experience has been with 5100's vs. vehicle specific OME shocks.

This question of a good ride unloaded (much better than OME medium) with the load bearing capacity must come down to coil composition and manufacturing process. The raw materials cost of these coils as I understand it is over $50, which well exceeds the entire production cost of an OME coil (OME has volume that FOR doesn't of course, but that is not the entire story).

To me, the question really isn't "how do you get a coil to ride and handle well both unloaded and under heavy load?" but rather "With an expensive coil composition and manufacturing process, can you get a coil that does both within a range of usage that meets a high statistical majority of usage, and at what price point?" I certainly think that the answer is yes within a pretty wide range of usage, and at a very expensive price point of around $150 per coil. The underlying market question becomes "Are people willing to pay this price point in order to achieve the benefits?"

One comparative point that I think is useful to understand is that an OME suspension for a Jeep is about the same price point as an 80 - the 80 series OME shocks are a bit more expensive, but the coil price points are the same. What that says to me is that OME is using the same coil composition and manufacturing process across their product line, and that spring rate variances for different applications are achieved by adding or subtracting coil material. This is an understandable volume market strategy, but the 80 really demands a higher end coil and this is called out in the slightly rough ride of OME as well as the reports of coil fatigue and load bearing issues.

In order to achieve "competition" spring rates (that is, coils that don't fail under heavy usage) OME has increased coil diameter to achieve the additional load bearing, and OME uses a fairly tight wind that also adds material - added to this is a lot of spring damping (higher valve rates) and you really can't expect a supple ride in a wide range of load conditions. The FOR springs in contrast are not an increased coil diameter and they actually have less winds than the basic OME springs, so there is less material being used while still achieving the load bearing chacteristics of the higher rate coils.

My thoughts on this are pretty simple - the 80 is a heavy and top heavy solid axle quad coil rig, and you can really see and feel the results of spending on very high end coils. This allows you to use a fairly basic and simple shock with low valving rates to achieve a very good ride across a range of load conditions.

As I have represented this option over the last 15 months, my only real concern has been the people would find the rear too soft. I could make the argument to actually firm up the rear end just a bit, but I have the prototype and the final kit has a bit more damping in the rear.

Here is a picture of the front coils vs. OME medium.
FOR Front vs. OME.webp
 
The raw materials cost of these coils as I understand it is over $50, which well exceeds the entire production cost of an OME coil (OME has volume that FOR doesn't of course, but that is not the entire story).


One comparative point that I think is useful to understand is that an OME suspension for a Jeep is about the same price point as an 80 - the 80 series OME shocks are a bit more expensive, but the coil price points are the same. What that says to me is that OME is using the same coil composition and manufacturing process across their product line, and that spring rate variances for different applications are achieved by adding or subtracting coil material.
It sounds like you are using OME's marketing/pricing strategy to make assumptions about technical specifications. Is this accurate info or your guess?

he FOR springs in contrast are not an increased coil diameter and they actually have less winds than the basic OME springs, so there is less material being used while still achieving the load bearing chacteristics of the higher rate coils.
So less wraps with no increase in wire diameter means a 'harder' steel? or is the wire thinner on one end compared to the other?
I'm confused as to what makes it progressiv too.

This allows you to use a fairly basic and simple shock with low valving rates to achieve a very good ride across a range of load conditions.

I think you are confusing the functions of a shock and spring... altho I understand what you are saying.

Thanks for your thoughts and pic.

Here is a pic of Slee4 coils next to OME Heavy springs
1394259592_f1d82ac9a4.jpg
 
dang Nay, you had me on the edge of my seat! nice editorial there.
 
the j's sitting next to a slee 4inch look just the same as the pic above. I was suprised when i saw them sitting side by side.... literally was like WTF???
 
The progressive bit is not multiple winds - from a design perspective it lengthens the coil to prevent unseating at full droop. I'm not sure how much you see from a loaded/unloaded on that basis, if anything.

I am not sure what you are trying to say here. A typical progressive spring has differences in coil wind spacing. Are you saying that FOR achieves that with a coil that is loosely wound, but stiffens when loaded? If so any coil will do that. How is making the coil longer with less winds make it progressive?

The only other way that I can see making a progressive spring rate with the same distance between coils is to vary the diameter of the wire. Is this the case with the FOR springs?


A couple of other things - the Bilstein piston is 19mm, so it's bigger than OME.

The piston or the shaft is 19mm?

This question of a good ride unloaded (much better than OME medium) with the load bearing capacity must come down to coil composition and manufacturing process. The raw materials cost of these coils as I understand it is over $50, which well exceeds the entire production cost of an OME coil (OME has volume that FOR doesn't of course, but that is not the entire story).

I am not sure the cost issue is relevant. You are comparing short run custom springs vs a manufacturer that runs 1000's of springs. I don't see how that answers the question on how the spring works.

To me, the question really isn't "how do you get a coil to ride and handle well both unloaded and under heavy load?"

To me it is the questions since this is the claim on the FOR springs and I can not see how they do it. Even with the picture shown below.

but rather "With an expensive coil composition and manufacturing process, can you get a coil that does both within a range of usage that meets a high statistical majority of usage, and at what price point?" I certainly think that the answer is yes within a pretty wide range of usage, and at a very expensive price point of around $150 per coil. The underlying market question becomes "Are people willing to pay this price point in order to achieve the benefits?"

We are not talking about marketability. I still fail to see how cold rolled or material choice makes the springs work in both situations.

One comparative point that I think is useful to understand is that an OME suspension for a Jeep is about the same price point as an 80 - the 80 series OME shocks are a bit more expensive, but the coil price points are the same. What that says to me is that OME is using the same coil composition and manufacturing process across their product line, and that spring rate variances for different applications are achieved by adding or subtracting coil material.
They also change how the coil is wound.

This is an understandable volume market strategy, but the 80 really demands a higher end coil and this is called out in the slightly rough ride of OME as well as the reports of coil fatigue and load bearing issues.

I do not know where the coil fatigue and load bearing issues come from. When OME is used as designed you do not have those.

In order to achieve "competition" spring rates (that is, coils that don't fail under heavy usage) OME has increased coil diameter to achieve the additional load bearing, and OME uses a fairly tight wind that also adds material - added to this is a lot of spring damping (higher valve rates) and you really can't expect a supple ride in a wide range of load conditions. The FOR springs in contrast are not an increased coil diameter and they actually have less winds than the basic OME springs, so there is less material being used while still achieving the load bearing chacteristics of the higher rate coils.

I am sorry, I can see how the FOR springs ride nice when not loaded. I just don't see how they produce the same effect on a loaded truck and not loose any height. This is where we started. Sam is the tester of the heavy loads and I would really like to see at what height his truck would be with the FOR springs and without any load.

My thoughts on this are pretty simple - the 80 is a heavy and top heavy solid axle quad coil rig, and you can really see and feel the results of spending on very high end coils. This allows you to use a fairly basic and simple shock with low valving rates to achieve a very good ride across a range of load conditions.

I can see that as well. However you made the claim that you do not loose any (or very limited) height when you load your truck. This makes people believe that the springs work equally well in both situations. Without it being a progressive spring, I do not see how that works.

Here is a picture of the front coils vs. OME medium.

The only think this shows me is that the OME Is a slightly better fit since the bottom wound is actually flattened to make sure the spring seats properly.
 
OME 863 from the "OME heavy load kit". I've never heard anything else referred to as OME Heavy:confused:

OME 864 is a heavy. I guess I should not have asked "what 2.5" " since there are more than one option in the heavy, afterall, even the J's are heavies with an inch added. I've seen the pic of the J's beside the 4" as well, and initially thought that this is waht it was. My b
 
From talking with Sam my plates should have setup the axle perfectly. His caster is between 2.3* and 2.9* and the front drive angle is less than 1* so this thing should be smooth as glass with a DC shaft in place.

The tie rod contact issue was from Slee's HD tie rod which is larger in diameter so some grinding is needed to clear an non factory part.

Slee helped me out with a failed DC shaft that ran flawless for a long time before failing. With the new shaft in I had terrible vibrations. I thought it was a tire issue from running with only one drive shaft and they were worn differently front and rear. So I just drove the truck with the shaft installed and the vibrations went away. I was then told that the tire idea was probably not the case by quite a few who had run with only the rear shaft in place for much longer without issues.

So maybe the shafts are a little stiff when new, I don't know.

In any event, I'll be out in California next week and hopefully will be able to help Sam and Tree out in locating the problem.
 
I am not sure what you are trying to say here. A typical progressive spring has differences in coil wind spacing. Are you saying that FOR achieves that with a coil that is loosely wound, but stiffens when loaded? If so any coil will do that. How is making the coil longer with less winds make it progressive?

The only other way that I can see making a progressive spring rate with the same distance between coils is to vary the diameter of the wire. Is this the case with the FOR springs? .

Look the only people that could explain how and why the FOR springs work and such is Frankie and the people that helped him make em. And like the Bush beans dog they aint talkin.
 
Maybe if you payed him $40,000. I mean come on guys.

As far as that flat spot to help seed the spring in the perch better. I have often wondered if that may be doing more harm long term, then good, I mean they ground off half the material on the first coil. However on the other hand not having this on the FOR springs it digs into the OME packer I have in the rear witch is probly giving me only about a ¼” of lift instead of a ½ “ and over time might just cut clean through buy the looks of it.
:cheers:
Sam
 
Look the only people that could explain how and why the FOR springs work and such is Frankie and the people that helped him make em. And like the Bush beans dog they aint talkin.

It is not a matter of giving away trade secrets. I just can't see how they can call it progressive when none of the pictures show any indication that it is.
 
Maybe if you payed him $40,000. I mean come on guys.

As far as that flat spot to help seed the spring in the perch better. I have often wondered if that may be doing more harm long term, then good, I mean they ground off half the material on the first coil. However on the other hand not having this on the FOR springs it digs into the OME packer I have in the rear witch is probly giving me only about a ¼” of lift instead of a ½ “ and over time might just cut clean through buy the looks of it.
:cheers:
Sam

Not grinding the last coil is just easier to do than grinding it. I can not see how it would hurt. The spring seats are either designed to accept the coil with a pigtail or not. Not sure what the longterm effect is of using that spring on a seat that is not designed for it.
 
I have a fair bit of experience with performance suspensions. Sports car, downhill mountain bike and even R/C cars and Christo is 100% acurate, Progressive springs would have to be either different thickness at one section vs another or they would have to be spaced differently or wound tighter at one part of the spring (usually at one end). I have progressive rate springs for all 3 applications listed above and they are ALL wound tighter/spaced closer at one end compared to the other.

I wish Frankie would chime in, I've seen them here on the board recently. I'd like to know also how they achieve the results claimed. I'm in the market for a mid sized lift for my 80, so I am very interested in the answer.
 
It is not a matter of giving away trade secrets. I just can't see how they can call it progressive when none of the pictures show any indication that it is.

My point, which I think wasn't clear, is that there is only a very small section that I have been told is progressive, and the point was to lengthen the coil so it wouldn't unseat, not to create a full progressive rate spring. So for the point of all of this, I'd probably just say you can ignore that bit.

I can't answer the rest of it, but the result has been achieved. It's not like this isn't now tested on multiple rigs with the same result. I could say more about what I've been told about the spring design parameters, but it's really not fair. It's hearsay from me and not my place and I should and will shut up and let users impressions tell the story.

My thoughts on OME are pure assumptions - I am extrapolating my experience with OME suspensions and how they can be improved upon. That was where my thoughts on this kit came from, having had extensive experience with OME in the Jeep world along with superior alternatives. As I told Frankie back in March of 2006, if you keep a near OME ride height kit designed to run 35's using a straight Bilstein 5100 you are going to knock it out of the park. Boom. :flipoff2:
 
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