FOR 3.5" lift install

[bugsnbikes]

The other thing im constantly reminded of in these tanks is the old adage "you are only as good as your weakest link" ......which to me still is braking and stopping these beasts at 70mph. Even if i were to minimize nosedive/roll in the suspension enough to avoid immediate calamity at highway speeds......the brakes just arent going to keep me from plowing into something else.

When faced with a panic situation my first instincts are to avoid the Bimmer/Volvo and look for the nearest soft Jeep to land on. Less insurance costs....less damage to the cruiser.

Maybe BFG will come out with a 255/85/24 so i can fit some 22inch brembo rotors and dual calipers..........but until then ill be nursing my junk along.

Two days ago i saw a head on collision on the GG bridge.....Volvo vs american car.......guess who was munched.....reminds me why the shortbus bumper was such a cheap investment.

 

[NorCalSam]

Im most curious to know whether or not Frankie is in fact offering various spring heights 3"-3.5" 3.5"-4" in these kits. I would certainly hold off for the ability to pick my spring height if his supplier is able to produce various height springs and still maintain that feel and performance he has dialed into the 3.5"kit.
......

Yes call him and he will help you.

Sam

 

[NorCalSam]

That is true, however as illustrated by you buying more components from us, it is important to know what you may or may not need additional equipment, especially when comparing pricing. I guess when we put it out as a kit, we like to cover all the parts you need. .

It should be noted that one does not "need" any of these extra parts right away anyway. My truck would work just fine without the panhards, they are not out much (and the rear was a little off with the 2.5 lift), but as my wifes daily driver I want it to track just right. And we always had intermitent DS vibration now its just a little more and remember it a lifted 4x4 with mud tires I think most people would not even car about this.( also I have the taller springs not the one in his kit).

I am glad you got something that worked for you. I know the frustration you had when we spoke in Moab two years ago. I am also glad there are more options for people out there. I know it goes against what most people think businesses should do, but we prefer to have our customers to be happy with what they got, even if it is not our products.

And that is why if you have the part I want even if it is back ordered and more money, I get it from you.


Sam

 

[NorCalSam]

My gut feeling is that the springs are probably a pretty stiff spring rate and it will probably work good for you. That is supported by NAY's pictures to show little compression when loaded. Now how it drives good when not loaded I do not know. Our experience is that with a stiff spring rate and no load the ride is really firm, to the point of being uncomfortable firm.

.

My gut feeling is that its the shocks! I have not yet tested it off road really but I do drive a long private dirt road everyday and the ride is way better.

Why do you think this shock is not good for off-road work. Remember that even someone like myself only drives off-road on a daily driver about 5 to 7 percent of the time, most are more like 2 percent. Maybe for a DD one should not be looking at off-road shocks etc.

I talk to people that sell and or have Billiys both 5100s and 7100s. I was going to get the 7100s but the kit came with the 5100s and the 7100s are not really the best choice for a DD/ overland truck. The remote shocks require more maintinance and if the top or a hose blows off you need spare parts and the stuff to recharge them. Frankie ran them at first but had a failure like this and did not notice much improvement, not to mention the cost. To many people told me that unless I was racing don't do it.

 

[MJADDICTION]

Are FOR springs a variable rate spring? I don't even know if that's the case with the OME springs. If they are variable rate, then they should effectively allow softer ride when unloaded, and still hold up to some weight.

I tried several coils in my Cherokee over the years. i used Pro Comp, a non variable rate spring. Very stiff, until loaded down. I used Tereflex, and Rubicon Express springs, both are variable weight springs. The tereflex had the best all around ride, loaded or unloaded. The RE's had a pretty good unloaded ride, and a great loaded ride. The variable rate springs also performed very well off-road, allowing lots of flex.

 

[Ivan80]

The only way to truly know the difference between each kit is to have had each one (OME and FOR) installed on your vehicle. Both Nay and Sam have had this, and both have noted marked differences in ride quality, and with Nay - improved off-road performance (Sam hasn't tested his yet).

To me, if it rides better, handles loads better, and seems better when off-road, IT'S BETTER. But I'm simple like that.

Until somebody puts a FOR kit on their rig and says that those qualities diminished, I'm inclined to think the springs and shocks are superior to OME.

The springs also cost twice as much.

 

[Land Speeder]

To me, if it rides better, handles loads better, and seems better when off-road, IT'S BETTER. But I'm simple like that.

I'm simple too like that and that is my take.

I've had the opportunity to follow Frankie out of a trail system when I met him. I have never seen an 80 behave as his did, it flexed when needed and stayed perfectly stable (level), something my J's do not do. I sway like the dickens, and Avocado has Slee 6" heavy's (extremely heavies IIRC) and his did not flex nearly as much as I would have thought. i drove and watched his last weekend. Dan had an extreme amount of weight in the back of his rig too... couple hundred pounds I'd say easily.... 5 bags of 50lb fertilizer to boot on top of all other gear.

here's the beauty... more product to choose from!

 

[Tools R Us]

...
I also think Christo is spot on with his theory that Americans and their rock crawling/ overcompression may be causing early sagging of the OME's . ...

I think there is a little more to it, like weight gain, add this little toy, then another, repeat. It's easy to loose track of how much weight has been added and end up with an unbalanced load, too much on one corner, also weight high on the truck has a much greater effect. Overload a spring and then flex it and it's easily damaged.

I drive over a scale at least once a week, so maybe I'm more aware of weight. It was 5278 lb yesterday, with ~100lb of tools on board, it's only gained ~100lb in a couple of years. The J setup has been on for 2.5+ yrs, it's well matched for my rig and driving style, if anything I would prefer a slightly lighter spring rate.

Due to the front arms my junk flexes pretty well, it hits the trail as often as possible and most trails around here deal with rock, so it's fully flexed often. The lift still measures the same as it did just after settling. Other than the arms, brother Rob's rig mirrors mine and his hasn't sagged at all ether, both sets of springs installed on the same day.

 

[Cruiserdrew]

Christo is asking exactly the right questions, you know, the ones the rest of us are not knowledgable enough to know we need to ask. This has been a good discussion, with lots of information now out there I really had not thought about.

I did not think Christo as a vendor was doing any bashing of a competitor's product. If anything he has done us all a favor by asking such good questions. Remember he was modding 80 series when Frankie was still fooling around with Jeeps.

In the end, though, it will come down to what we all see out in the real world. If any suspension can survive Sam and Theresa's load, then it has to be OK, at least in my mind. I'm hoping they will let me drive their truck a bit the next time out. A year from now all parties involved will have much more data to bring to the table.

For me personally, I thought J-springs were terrible with a full load, and just fine unloaded. I don't see how the same spring can handle both uses.

 

[Land Speeder]

I did not think Christo as a vendor was doing any bashing of a competitor's product. If anything he has done us all a favor by asking such good questions. Remember he was modding 80 series when Frankie was still fooling around with Jeeps.

So vendors can question other vendors parts here, but I can't question another private parties price in the For Sale section. Interesting.

If you consider building killer competition buggies and fabbing anything conceivable as "fooling around with Jeeps"..... then wow

 

[Little Boss]

I met a fellow 80 owner today in Grass Valley, not naming names, but he has a very similar setup to what I had. 2.5 inch OME heavy setup with Rancho shocks. He has weight to go with the truck also. ARB on the front, Lukes first 80 bumper on the rear. Hannibal rack on the top. He too loved his OME at first but now is not happy. It too has gotten rough and has the feeling of more sway on the road. Same situation we were in. I myself wanted the Slee 4 inch lift would have loved the 6 inch as I am the cruiser esthetics Nazi, but I understand why Sam went with the FOR. For instance, we have been places with the 2.5 inch lift ie the rubicon, and have had less problems (tippiness, wobble, etc. ) than people with the 4-6 inch lift. Beings it is my daily driver the lower center of gravity would be better. Of course to do rubicon etc with more ease you need 35 " tires. You don't have to have them but it would be better and the FOR lift accomodates this without the rub you get with the OME. His kit was designed around the 35" tire. So that said, the lift has been on 1 week. I can say it is night and day. For example, the opposite of a speed bump would be a speed divot 3 footish wide. Was moving steadily and cruised through it almost cadillac like. This is much different than before. So far I am very happy. (would be more happy if I didn't have fender flares). I think Sam is married to them. I will answer to the following and then give my final thoughts.

Jason, I think Christo is playing nice. He is asking serious questions that i myself am asking, just not posting. I too have no idea how you can have a spring that rides the same with 1,000 lbs of stuff in the truck as with nothing in the truck.
Actually, i think the FOR kit is more expensive then slee's lifts.

I too think Christo is asking serious and appropriate questions. That is what this forum is about. About the price, Slee's Kit includes all. You do not necessarily need all with the FOR. Price for price we will probably be close to equal with the slee, maybe a little more but we got the shocks we wanted, center of gravity we wanted, and springs as well. So you all know if you go to Frankie4x4.com his 80 series 3.5 inch kit lists for $1360.00. He is comfortable selling his kit as is. He promotes Slee Offroad to complement his kit however. Thus the reason I have ordered adjustable front/rear panhard rods, and a front DC driveshaft. We'll see if we need the adjustable rear control arms. The slee kit lists for $2400.00. so at this point I am still under with what I have ordered from Slee. So I think price is close enough if you get everything that the point is mute. If you don't need the panhards/ DC shaft then you have saved a grand.

The only way to truly know the difference between each kit is to have had each one (OME and FOR) installed on your vehicle. Both Nay and Sam have had this, and both have noted marked differences in ride quality, and with Nay - improved off-road performance (Sam hasn't tested his yet).

To me, if it rides better, handles loads better, and seems better when off-road, IT'S BETTER. But I'm simple like that.

Until somebody puts a FOR kit on their rig and says that those qualities diminished, I'm inclined to think the springs and shocks are superior to OME.

The springs also cost twice as much.

I think the OME setup is listed at $800 ish on slees site. The FOR is not quite double, but close. However you can run 35" tires successfully. Big Bonus. So far the difference is night and day.

In the end, though, it will come down to what we all see out in the real world. If any suspension can survive Sam and Theresa's load, then it has to be OK, at least in my mind. I'm hoping they will let me drive their truck a bit the next time out. A year from now all parties involved will have much more data to bring to the table.

For me personally, I thought J-springs were terrible with a full load, and just fine unloaded. I don't see how the same spring can handle both uses.

Time will tell. Yes we have a lot of s.........t We can't wait to get loaded and go on an expedition and see how it does. Andy, you are more than welcome to drive "my" truck. Hopefully it will be on a maze expedition. Next is gearing.

Cheers

Tree

 

[sleeoffroad]

I've noticed this initial, sharp dive to the outside of the corner on my truck as well when first initiating the turn. At highway speeds, loaded, it's kinda unnerving and makes the first turn-in very hesitant. Strange to hear someone else have the same issue. I'm running the OME shocks with the springs. Any idea why it does this?

Next time we do a OME I will take it for a test drive and check this. I can not recall ever having this or feeling it. Either with our kits or OME.

 

[sleeoffroad]

It should be noted that one does not "need" any of these extra parts right away anyway. My truck would work just fine without the panhards, they are not out much (and the rear was a little off with the 2.5 lift), but as my wifes daily driver I want it to track just right.

I would debate the need issue. That panhard move in opposing directions, so the net amount that they are off is pretty substantial. This could lead to handling anomalies. You mentioned that one of the reasons you did not like the OME was turning. With the panhard off like that the left and right turning behavior would not be the same.

And that is why if you have the part I want even if it is back ordered and more money, I get it from you.


Sam

That we do appreciate.

 

[sleeoffroad]

Are FOR springs a variable rate spring? I don't even know if that's the case with the OME springs. If they are variable rate, then they should effectively allow softer ride when unloaded, and still hold up to some weight.

The OME is not progressive (except for the OME866 that is a 100 series spring, that could be used in the back of a 80). On the FOR springs, Nay mentioned that it is, however even on the latest picture on their site it does not appear to be progressive.

 

[sleeoffroad]

So vendors can question other vendors parts here, but I can't question another private parties price in the For Sale section. Interesting.

I am asking questions from Sam not Frankie. Although if Frankie wanted to post some answers on this, I think we will all appreciate it. Not sure what the rules are in the For Sale section. This is not much different to someone asking if he should buy a ARB bumper or a SLEE Shortbus bumper. People will give their opinions and ask questions. Kurt from Cruiser Outfitters (just an example of another vendor) is welcome to say that the Shrotbus bumper is not good for hitting animals and we would be fine with it, but if I (or one of my customers) said the Shortbus bumper has the same front end protection as an ARB, then he is welcome to question it.

Now if I post the Shortbus bumper product announcement in the Vendor section and some other bumper vendor post in our thread re: their bumpers I would take that as bad style. They are however free to post any questions they have.

If you consider building killer competition buggies and fabbing anything conceivable as "fooling around with Jeeps"..... then wow

Well, Frankie does have a lot of experience in the competition buggy and suspension design field. We do have a lot of experience in the 80 field. I think what Andrew was trying to say is that our questions on the 80 is based on years of doing suspensions for this specific vehicle. Based on that I am still not sure how they do a spring that works perfectly on a unloaded truck (Nay's) and then will work on a heavy loaded truck (Sam's) that was exceeding the carrying capacity of the OME heavy.

Also as he pointed out, one Sam and Theresa has taken the truck on a couple of trips, we will have more feedback. I hope for them to post in this thread once they have it.

 

[sleeoffroad]

Why do you think this shock is not good for off-road work. Remember that even someone like myself only drives off-road on a daily driver about 5 to 7 percent of the time, most are more like 2 percent. Maybe for a DD one should not be looking at off-road shocks etc.

One of the biggest reasons is that the Bilsteins is a monotube shock and one dent to the shock body, then the shock is destroyed. Not as big of an issue on a expedition truck, but certainly an issue on a truck you take into the Rubicon.

The shaft on the Bilstein is thinner than the OME (18mm) and more prone to bending. The larger shaft helps with heat dissipation as does the metal sleeve that OME uses (instead of the rubber boot). The metal sleeve acts as a big heatsink. Any shock manufacturer will agree the heat buildup in a shock is the worst enemy of the shock.

The Bilsteins is by no means a bad shock and I have them on my 100 series. However I would really like to see why the features on the Bilsteins put them above the OME.

I talk to people that sell and or have Billiys both 5100s and 7100s. I was going to get the 7100s but the kit came with the 5100s and the 7100s are not really the best choice for a DD/ overland truck. The remote shocks require more maintinance and if the top or a hose blows off you need spare parts and the stuff to recharge them. Frankie ran them at first but had a failure like this and did not notice much improvement, not to mention the cost. To many people told me that unless I was racing don't do it.

I can see where the extra reservoir would be a concern, but if I set my truck up for extended dirt road driving and cost was not a concern, I would opt for the extended reservoir shocks with tunability.

 

[NorCalSam]

One of the biggest reasons is that the Bilsteins is a monotube shock and one dent to the shock body, then the shock is destroyed. Not as big of an issue on a expedition truck, but certainly an issue on a truck you take into the Rubicon.

The shaft on the Bilstein is thinner than the OME (18mm) and more prone to bending. The larger shaft helps with heat dissipation as does the metal sleeve that OME uses (instead of the rubber boot). The metal sleeve acts as a big heatsink. Any shock manufacturer will agree the heat buildup in a shock is the worst enemy of the shock.

The Bilsteins is by no means a bad shock and I have them on my 100 series. However I would really like to see why the features on the Bilsteins put them above the OME.



I can see where the extra reservoir would be a concern, but if I set my truck up for extended dirt road driving and cost was not a concern, I would opt for the extended reservoir shocks with tunability.

That is funny, because the info that I got from people including Frankie is that the more oil or gas (depending on the type of shock you have) is what cool shock not a bigger shaft and the trade off is the weaker shaft. This make more sense to me. However, Frankie is not concerned with smaller shaft on an 80 because the design of the suspension puts very little lateral stresses on the shock if caster is right etc.

Now if it were a leaf spring truck it would be a concern.
In fact Frankie has tested another shock that has an even smaller shaft that we were thinking about using. It has better cooling thus less fading and is smoother on washboard roads etc. But the Bilsteins have a stiffer feel initially so he felt that they would be a better choice for us as a daily driver on windy roads.

As far as the springs, It was my understanding that the springs have a small variable spring rate section. This coupled with the better shocks is why if feels better on a loaded and unloaded truck. And the cold cut CNC method should make the spring hold up loader.

 

[NorCalSam]

It looks like I am now at 23 5/8" in the front and 23" in the rear. From center of hub to the fender or fender flare.

 

[NorCalSam]

Castor readings

Took truck in for castor readings as is with OME bushings 2*.

Left 0.2* Right -0.3*

 

[Lugboot]

Looks like you've got some caster correcting to do! I think you are close to what my readings were with OME bushings. Search my user name and caster and you'll see my saga. I ended up going with Landtank's plates to get caster back to between 3* and 3.5*. The man's a wealth of knowledge.

Good luck, man!