Electrical Gremlin

[ralphy1997]

I had this problem about a year ago, cleaned the battery terminals and it went away until now. . .

For some background, I have a '96 LX 450 with about 165000 miles. I've been driving it without a battery hold down as it didn't have one when I bought it. I wedged some oil bottles in the battery tray to keep the battery from moving and all had been fine (I do have a hold down with the J bolts and nuts currently on order with my local dealer).

My 80 won't start. I guess I should say won't start consistently. At times it will just click, others, it clicks and goes dead. Sometimes it will start and then it will start 3-4 times fine, then it won't again. When I loosen the bracket from the battery terminal and move it around, I get sparks and I can hear the power to the relay(?) click on and off. All the lights come on in the cab and it seems I have power, I turn the key and I get a click, or a click and all the lights disappear (everything goes dead).

I'm pretty sure I have a short somewhere but where should I start? Should I just replace the fusible links? Are there any simple tests I can perform to isolate the problem? I am very electronically challenged and don't have a voltmeter or any other electrical tools besides wire cutters. Before I take it somewhere and pay more than I should, I wanted to get some feedback here.

 

[Ebag333]

When were your starter contacts last changed?

 

[RhinoRig]

I think you're on the right track: a short. Look hard for the obvious, then look some more.

Maybe a alternator going bad. They can be intermittent towards the end.

Shoulda used duct tape instead of oil bottles

 

[ralphy1997]

When were your starter contacts last changed?

I have no idea. I've only had it for a little over a year. I suspected a bad starter, but the other issues kind of led me away from that. I'd prefer to fix the problem rather than start replacing everything that could be it. I guess I could pull the starter and take it to the local parts store and have it tested. I'm also leaning away from it being the starter as it was doing this last summer and stopped after cleaning the battery terminals--it has started perfectly since then for the last 10 months or so.

Could it be just a combination of a short and a weak battery? I forgot to mention that when it does start, the cranking isn't especially strong.

 

[80t0ylc]

When were your starter contacts last changed?

X2! I would say that this is your problem.

I have no idea. I've only had it for a little over a year. I suspected a bad starter, but the other issues kind of led me away from that. I'd prefer to fix the problem rather than start replacing everything that could be it. I guess I could pull the starter and take it to the local parts store and have it tested. I'm also leaning away from it being the starter as it was doing this last summer and stopped after cleaning the battery terminals--it has started perfectly since then for the last 10 months or so.

Could it be just a combination of a short and a weak battery? I forgot to mention that when it does start, the cranking isn't especially strong.

It's possible that your battery is borderline. But that will make the starter contact problem worse. You definitely need to address the contact problem 1st. After you have new, good, & reliable contacts, then tackle your battery. My .02

Edit: Should have read 1st post more carefully.
1st. Get battery tied down.
2nd. Find where wiring is arcing, probably loose connection. Get that fixed.
3rd. Replace starter contacts. I still think the clicks when trying to start is a contact issue - it's a common problem with these starters. It can be an intermittent problem.
4th. Replace or charge up battery if necessary.

 

[dabess]

With the lights going dead, and the click click sound, means ONE thing... Poor BATT connection. I had the same issues, dealing with the fusible links. Rewire/replace the + terminal. Start with the easiest first. Since hold down system is gone, positive terminal at fusible links has probably had a beating.

 

[ralphy1997]

With the lights going dead, and the click click sound, means ONE thing... Poor BATT connection. I had the same issues, dealing with the fusible links. Rewire/replace the + terminal. Start with the easiest first. Since hold down system is gone, positive terminal at fusible links has probably had a beating.

"3rd. Replace starter contacts. I still think the clicks when trying to start is a contact issue - it's a common problem with these starters. It can be an intermittent problem."
80t0ylc, I should clarify: the "click" is a single click, not multiple clicks. . .


I think I'm going to go with a new battery first as I don't know how old the one I have is and it looks like it's been there a while. The lights going dead also leads me to believe a bad power connection or short somewhere. It also may be a combination of battery, fusible links and starter all causing problems intermittently.

dabess, Did you replace your fusible links? If so, do you remember what they cost?

 

[dabess]

I had some link wire leftover from another job. So I rewired with it. Don't remember cost, sorry.

 

[Ebag333]

I doubt it's the fusible links. You can test them by pulling on them and visually inspecting. If they stretch, they're bad. If they're burnt/darkened/damaged, they're bad.

I would absolutely not hardwire the fusible links. They are there for a reason.

The starter contacts can absolutely do a single click and then give you nothing. A weak battery will make the contacts even worse.

Call Cdan and order a new set of fusible links (you should carry a spare set in the glove compartment anyway) and a starter rebuild kit. You will need to know the starter part number as it could be a 1.4 kw, 2.0 kw, or 2.2 kw starter. If you're not sure which you have (the part number sticker on mine was missing) there's some threads you can find with some comparison pics.

Most battery/auto places can test your battery and tell you if it's bad or not. They don't always get it right, however.

The starter contacts are cheap, and it's not a difficult job at all. If you're not sure when they were last replaced, I would replace them as they can leave you stranded with little to no warning. Ask me how I know.....


So to sum up, sounds to me like your battery is weak (on its way out), and the contacts are worn enough that the weak battery can't turn it over. Replace both, and I betcha the problem goes away.

 

[80t0ylc]

.........80t0ylc, I should clarify: the "click" is a single click, not multiple clicks. . .......

Yup, 1 click each time you try to start engine. (With "clicks" I meant multiple start attempts) I had this intermittent symptom, which can be extremely annoying and frustrating, and jumps from other rigs would start it. I replaced the battery and the intermitent click symptom continued. This can also be neutral safety switch, but the most common problem was the contacts in the starter, after searching here on MUD. I had previously replaced my starter with a NAPA lifetime guaranteed starter 7 years before to fix identical problem. So down to NAPA I go & get me my new starter, with my warranty claim. Install new starter & problem fixed! If I had just replaced contacts 7 years ago, I could have done it again recently when I had problem and kept my OEM starter. Now with the NAPA lifetime starter, I'll just replace it, since the contacts (which is what the problem usually is) are internal to it. BTW, the contacts can also cause another problem which is almost opposite. Symptom is: Engage starter and it continues to run even after you attempt to shut off and pull out key. Only way to stop it is to pull the battery lead. Has caused fires in extreme cases.

.........I think I'm going to go with a new battery first as I don't know how old the one I have is and it looks like it's been there a while. The lights going dead also leads me to believe a bad power connection or short somewhere. It also may be a combination of battery, fusible links and starter all causing problems intermittently. .........

If you have battery charger, you could charge it up - instead of forking out cash first, for a battery you might not need. Contacts are fairly cheap, IIRC. You can always get a new battery if all else fails. They're a little more pricey.

 

[ardentyota]

After experiencing a similar issue for the last 8 months, I would recommend doing things a bit differently. I'm not saying you shouldn't replace the starter contacts, but I would start by replacing the battery cables from the battery to block and starter.

I had the click but no start problem. I replaced the starter contacts and it went away for about a month then started happening again. Then after more Mud reading, I ordered and replaced the ignition switch. The problem went away for a while and then came back. I then decided to rebuild the cables with 2ga speaker/battery cable and the problem has not come back. I couldn't believe how corroded and brittle the cables were. I know my contacts were on there way out and the ignition switch was corroded too, but if I was doing it again, I would start with the cables as they seemed to be the worst contributor.

Just my $.02 about another possibility.

Good luck!

 

[96r50]

I would absolutely not hardwire the fusible links. They are there for a reason.

xEleventy billion! They are there to protect everything downstream.


Read through this thread: https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/233993-starter-neutral-safety-switch.html

There have been some occurrences of no-starts on the 95-97 trucks with the A343F transmission being caused by corroded or broken wire splices in the Neutral Safety Switch (NSS) connector. It has happened to TOY350, myself, and Romer, and the symptoms are very similar to yours.

 

[ardentyota]

xEleventy billion! They are there to protect everything downstream.


Read through this thread: https://forum.ih8mud.com/80-series-tech/233993-starter-neutral-safety-switch.html

There have been some occurrences of no-starts on the 95-97 trucks with the A343F transmission being caused by corroded or broken wire splices in the Neutral Safety Switch (NSS) connector. It has happened to TOY350, myself, and Romer, and the symptoms are very similar to yours.

Good call. I think there is a post in there that talks about the lights on your dash. If some are missing when you turn the key, it means that your NSS is not working, if they are all there, it is. Easy test.

 

[ralphy1997]

Thanks for everyone's help. I guess I have some work to do this weekend. I'll post up my solution if I find one.

 

[Pin_Head]

With the lights going dead, and the click click sound, means ONE thing... Poor BATT connection.

X2

If you lose chassis power when you hit the switch, you have a bad connection close to the battery. Either the battery itself, the battery cable or the fusible link for the chassis power.

If the lights weren't going out on you I would say it is the starter contacts, but bad starter contacts aren't going to make the lights go out at the same time. Maybe dimmer when cranking, but not out.

 

[ralphy1997]

X2

If you lose chassis power when you hit the switch, you have a bad connection close to the battery. Either the battery itself, the battery cable or the fusible link for the chassis power.

If the lights weren't going out on you I would say it is the starter contacts, but bad starter contacts aren't going to make the lights go out at the same time. Maybe dimmer when cranking, but not out.

Agreed. I still suspect a short at the fusible link area caused possibly by movement from the battery.

I finally got the battery hold down setup from the dealer today. In trying to install it, I found out why the PO got rid of it. The battery that was installed seems like it is much smaller than the factory battery. The bolts were too long for the battery and I couldn't get it to anchor right. I eventually tried wedging the battery from the back to get it to sit solidly against the hold downs, but I didn't like the way it made the back of the tray bulge out. I then had a genius idea (the more white trash you are the more genius it is). I had a s**** piece of MDF sitting around from a recent house project and decided to put that in the bottom of the tray to boost the battery up a bit. I could tell that the battery should be sitting higher because the wires angled down to connect to the battery. This 3/4" boost did 2 things for me:

1. It aligned the wiring closer to where it should be
2. It changed the angle of the hold down bolts and caused them to exert more downward force instead of rearward force.

I was able to tighten the battery securely and connect the wiring and the cruiser fired right up! Now, only time will tell if it is a permanent fix. White trash pics attached for your viewing pleasure.

 

[dabess]

AWESOME!

 

[Pin_Head]

I still suspect a short at the fusible link area caused possibly by movement from the battery.

It is a bad connection, not a short. A short would either burn up the fusible link or discharge the battery rapidly by arc welding the shorted area.

 

[ralphy1997]

^I stand corrected (see post 1 about my electrical knowledge).

 

[Ebag333]

Looks like it's time for a new battery...