brake bleed question

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Dec 21, 2015
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TX
i just changed my brake fluid for the first time myself and when I was bleeding my RR brake line, I accidentally pumped the brakes without any pressure in my power bleeder, with the bleeder open. does that mean I could've introduced air into the brake line?

once i realized what i did, i pressurized my power bleeder and pumped the brakes about 15 times, going back to check the bleed line every 5 pumps to see if there were any air bubbles. I never saw any air bubbles, but I know I made a mistake and now can't stop thinking about it! do yall think I will be ok since I didn't see any air bubbles?
 
You’re fine.
 
I can't say, if you've air or not. As I don't use power bleeders. But the FSM has a test. IG Key off (read top of resevoir) pump brake pedal 40 times. Turn IG key on. Time how long, before brake booster motor stop running (charge accumulator). spec 30 to 40 second. Over 40 seconds, rebleed. Note: battery needs to be ~12.5 volts. Low voltage, pump motor runs slower, and time goes up.

I manually flush and bleed with helper. I use only Toyota brake fluid. I also flush brake booster accumulator.
Rule of thumb. Never release brake pedal with a bleeder open.

Note:
I get ~21 pumps of pedal before pedal drops (pressure drops), in new brake master.
I get ~29 seconds in time test at 12.7 Volts, with new brake master.
 
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I can't say, if you've air or not. As I don't use power bleeders. But the FSM has a test. IG Key off (read top of resevoir) pump brake pedal 40 times. Turn IG key on. Time how long, before brake booster motor stop running (charge accumulator). spec 30 to 40 second. Over 40 seconds, rebleed. Note: battery needs to be ~12.5 volts. Low voltage, pump motor runs slower, and time goes up.

I manually flush and bleed with helper. I use only Toyota brake fluid. I also flush brake booster accumulator.
Rule of thumb. Never release brake pedal with a bleeder open.

Note:
I get ~28 pumps of pedal before pedal drops (pressure drops), in new brake master.
I get ~29 seconds in time test at 12.7 Volts, with new brake master.
i got 45 sec (ran the test twice, same result). does that mean I just need to rebleed that RR line? or is there now air in the whole system and i have to start over completely?
 
i got 45 sec (ran the test twice, same result). does that mean I just need to rebleed that RR line? or is there now air in the whole system and i have to start over completely?
If battery voltage over 12.3V, you likely have air. Which line or lines, IDK.

 
If battery voltage over 12.3V, you likely have air. Which line or lines, IDK.

can air travel from one line to the others?
 
can air travel from one line to the others?
Each line is independent.

YES! In 98-99 ( 3 brake line, with only one line to rear), one can move air in rear line, from one side to the other. But would be difficult to do, without trying.
NO! In 00-07 (4 brake line, each independent).
Yes! If reservoir gets to low. Air can go in one or more lines.

I would just start over flush and bleed, without fancy tools. Using only Toyota brake fluid.
IMG_2471.JPEG


I have flush and bleed procedure written up a few places. I'll write it up again, here:

First read and understand how to properly set level. Toyota felt so important, they gave us instruction on the reservoir.
Brake reservoir (3).JPG



Rule of thumb: Never release brake pedal, with any bleeder open. Doing so will suck in air.

I start flush and bleed, at RL (Rear Left) bleeder.
Why RL? Simple; It is closest to side I'm working from ;)

1)
With IG key on and brake pedal depress. Open RL bleeder. Motor/pump, will pump out fluid from rear bleeder. As long as IG key ON, battery has a charge, brake pedal held down (depressed) and a rear bleeder open. Use pump to do the work, only works on rear bleeders.

Remove approximately 1 qt. (If reservoir was, properly filled to max line. It fills a qt. jar)

Note: (IG key ON, brake pedal depressed and rear bleeder open. Brake booster motor/pump, will run continuously, pumping fluid out rear bleeder. Do not allow to run excessively (2 minutes or more) long. Doing so can burn up motor.
007.JPG

My little helper when working at rears, to hold down brake pedal. A shower curtain spring loaded pole.
Helper Brake bleed (1).JPG
Helper Brake bleed (2).JPG


Watch reservoir form side close to engine. Drawing down fluid, to very near bottom. Taking level to low, pump will suck some air, which I rather avoid. But no big deal. Since you'll be flush master, accumulator and all lines from this point.

Once fluid very near bottom of reservoirs (sorry no picture of how low), lowest point. As seen from side closest to engine:
Close bleeder and turn IG key OFF. (Note: When IG key off, booster motor/pump stops)

2) Then pump brake pedal 40 times. This evacuates fluid from acumulator, dumping fluid back into resevoir. Fluid will now be about 25% up from bottom.
010.JPG


Add equal amount of fresh toyota brake fluid (~6oz), to what evacuated (25%) into reservoir from accumulator. Now you'll have a 50/50 mix of old and new fluid, in reservoir, setting ~ 50% up from bottom.

Turn IG key on. Booster motor/pump turns on and force fluid back into accumulator (pressurizing brake system), drawing down reservoir to ~25% level. Motor/pump stops.

With IG Key On, depress brake pedal and have helper hold down.
Open RL bleeder again, removing about as much as you had fresh fluid you had added, into your catch jar. Do not suck air, by running resevoir dry. Close bleeder and turn IG key off.

With bleeder closed and IG key off. Pump brake pedal 40 times again. Thus evacuating accumulators 50/50 mix, bring reservoir level up to about 25% again.

Repeat evacuating accumulator, adding ~6oz and flushing line ~5 times. Each time you'll be getting a greater percentage of new fluid to old mix.i.e. 50/50% 75/25, 87/13, 90/10, 95/5%. Fluid in accumulator is now clean and fresh, as it can reasonably be.

With IG key off pump brake pedal 40 times, and top reservoir. You can, overfill resevoir at this time. But in the end, we will want level, right on max line.

Master, accumulator and RL brake line and top of RL caliper (see note below, on caliper piston compression) are now flush and air out of them.
Torque RL bleeder to 8ft-lbf.

3) Now flush RR brake line. With IG key on, brake pedal depressed. Open RR bleeder and remove about 6oz. from this, the is longest line. Torque bleeder to 8ft-lbf.

Make sure to keep eye on fluid level. Do not let go below low line.

4) Now, having an actual person helper, is best.

Set yourself up at FR (front right bleeder). Turn IG key on (IG will remain on ON, until both fronts flush and bleed). Depress brake pedal, keep pressure on pedal, best to not pressing excessively hard as bleeder opened and pedal goes to the floor. Only about 1/2oz comes out, as bleeder opened. Close bleeder (remember, never let off brake pedal with a bleeder open). Then have helper pump pedal 5 time and depress brake pedal again, as bleeder opened. Repeat 7 to 10 times. Torque bleeder to 8ft-lbf.
Note: If this is a master replacement or master was run dry. Pump brake pedal 20 times, the first time then 5 times thereafter.

5) Now move to FL and repeat. This is shortest brake line. So 5 to 7 flush/bleeds, is all that is needed. Torque bleeder to 8ft-lbf.

6) Now check for air in system:.
Battery voltage at 12.3V or better. (Best at 12.7V or greater)
IG key off.
Pump brake pedal 40 times, evacuating accumulator.
Top level in reservoir to max line.
Time how long booster motor runs, until stops/accumulator charged. Turn IG key ON, booster motor will be heard as it runs and fluid will drawdown in reservoir. Charging accumulator. (Note: motor will likely, pause a few time. Which is normal)

A time of 30 to 40 second is good. Closer to 30 second, indicates a stronger booster system and a good Toyota brake fluid. (non Toyota brake fluids, often result in longer charge times)

Remember also: low voltage, time will be longer as motor/pump run slower.

If time over 40 seconds, re-bleed.
Barke early pic's (1).JPG


7) Now cap those bleeders, with rubber bleeder caps. But first blow out the fluid from bleeder. Brake fluid is hydroscopic, and bleeder will will if fluid left in them.

Get rid of old rubber bleeder caps, that are beyond serviceable life.
018.JPG


Blow out bleeders, with shop air or a can of keyboard dust blaster (compressed air).
Brake flush (2).JPG


I then blow in brake cleaner. Shop air again, and then add a few drops of WD-40, which is a water displacement agent.
Then cap bleeders, with good rubber caps.
017.JPG


Works for all 100 series and 200 series.
You can once done. Air bleed through tech stream. Or Drive ~30MPH on dirt road, and slam on brakes 4 times. Which activates ABS, and moves move fluid through ABS valves.

Notes:

If bleeder clogged, it will likely need replacing. They get clogged because of rust inside bleeder, due to not being capped. Rear bleeders, are the ones I see having issue the most. If rust gets into bleeder seat of caliper. New bleeder will weep. Then a new caliper is needed.

If not OEM caliper and or bleeder match, we see angle of seat issues. These are a PITA and may leak. It is one of the reasons, I avoid non OEM bleeders and calipers.

Once done, if one really want all out we can get. Which some was held in caliper chambers. We need to compress caliper pistons with it's bleeder open. Then re-bleed, just that tiny bit of air, that may have entered if not very careful. We flush first. So fresh fluid is in line and ready to enter caliper.
 
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I'm planning to replace my front calipers, pads, rotors and swap in Slee stainless steel lines. Is it best practice to do this full flush before installing the new brake components?
 
I'm planning to replace my front calipers, pads, rotors and swap in Slee stainless steel lines. Is it best practice to do this full flush before installing the new brake components?
Yes! So fresh fluid in lines ready to go into calipers.
It's best to use, Toyota brake fluid. 7 cans should do it.
 
Each line is independent.

YES! In 98-99 ( 3 brake line, with only one line to rear), one can move air in rear line, from one side to the other. But would be difficult to do, without trying.
NO! In 00-07 (4 brake line, each independent).
Yes! If reservoir gets to low. Air can go in one or more lines.

I would just start over flush and bleed, without fancy tools. Using only Toyota brake fluid.
View attachment 3840641

I have flush and bleed procedure written up a few places. I'll write it up again, here:

First read and understand how to properly set level. Toyota felt so important, they gave us instruction on the reservoir.
View attachment 3840638


Rule of thumb: Never release brake pedal, with any bleeder open. Doing so will suck in air.

I start flush and bleed, at RL (Rear Left) bleeder.
Why RL? Simple; It is closest to side I'm working from ;)

1)
With IG key on and brake pedal depress. Open RL bleeder. Motor/pump, will pump out fluid from rear bleeder. As long as IG key ON, battery has a charge, brake pedal held down (depressed) and a rear bleeder open. Use pump to do the work, only works on rear bleeders.

Remove approximately 1 qt. (If reservoir was, properly filled to max line. It fills a qt. jar)

Note: (IG key ON, brake pedal depressed and rear bleeder open. Brake booster motor/pump, will run continuously, pumping fluid out rear bleeder. Do not allow to run excessively (2 minutes or more) long. Doing so can burn up motor.
View attachment 3840598
My little helper when working at rears, to hold down brake pedal. A shower curtain spring loaded pole.
View attachment 3840615View attachment 3840614

Watch reservoir form side close to engine. Drawing down fluid, to very near bottom. Taking level to low, pump will suck some air, which I rather avoid. But no big deal. Since you'll be flush master, accumulator and all lines from this point.

Once fluid very near bottom of reservoirs (sorry no picture of how low), lowest point. As seen from side closest to engine:
Close bleeder and turn IG key OFF. (Note: When IG key off, booster motor/pump stops)

2) Then pump brake pedal 40 times. This evacuates fluid from acumulator, dumping fluid back into resevoir. Fluid will now be about 25% up from bottom.
View attachment 3840599

Add equal amount of fresh toyota brake fluid (~6oz), to what evacuated (25%) into reservoir from accumulator. Now you'll have a 50/50 mix of old and new fluid, in reservoir, setting ~ 50% up from bottom.

Turn IG key on. Booster motor/pump turns on and force fluid back into accumulator (pressurizing brake system), drawing down reservoir to ~25% level. Motor/pump stops.

With IG Key On, depress brake pedal and have helper hold down.
Open RL bleeder again, removing about as much as you had fresh fluid you had added, into your catch jar. Do not suck air, by running resevoir dry. Close bleeder and turn IG key off.

With bleeder closed and IG key off. Pump brake pedal 40 times again. Thus evacuating accumulators 50/50 mix, bring reservoir level up to about 25% again.

Repeat evacuating accumulator, adding ~6oz and flushing line ~5 times. Each time you'll be getting a greater percentage of new fluid to old mix.i.e. 50/50% 75/25, 87/13, 90/10, 95/5%. Fluid in accumulator is now clean and fresh, as it can reasonably be.

With IG key off pump brake pedal 40 times, and top reservoir. You can, overfill resevoir at this time. But in the end, we will want level, right on max line.

Master, accumulator and RL brake line and top of RL caliper (see note below, on caliper piston compression) are now flush and air out of them.
Torque RL bleeder to 8ft-lbf.

3) Now flush RR brake line. With IG key on, brake pedal depressed. Open RR bleeder and remove about 6oz. from this, the is longest line. Torque bleeder to 8ft-lbf.

Make sure to keep eye on fluid level. Do not let go below low line.

4) Now, having an actual person helper, is best.

Set yourself up at FR (front right bleeder). Turn IG key on (IG will remain on ON, until both fronts flush and bleed). Depress brake pedal, keep pressure on pedal, best to not pressing excessively hard as bleeder opened and pedal goes to the floor. Only about 1/2oz comes out, as bleeder opened. Close bleeder (remember, never let off brake pedal with a bleeder open). Then have helper pump pedal 5 time and depress brake pedal again, as bleeder opened. Repeat 7 to 10 times. Torque bleeder to 8ft-lbf.
Note: If this is a master replacement or master was run dry. Pump brake pedal 20 times, the first time then 5 times thereafter.

5) Now move to FL and repeat. This is shortest brake line. So 5 to 7 flush/bleeds, is all that is needed. Torque bleeder to 8ft-lbf.

6) Now check for air in system:.
Battery voltage at 12.3V or better. (Best at 12.7V or greater)
IG key off.
Pump brake pedal 40 times, evacuating accumulator.
Top level in reservoir to max line.
Time how long booster motor runs, until stops/accumulator charged. Turn IG key ON, booster motor will be heard as it runs and fluid will drawdown in reservoir. Charging accumulator. (Note: motor will likely, pause a few time. Which is normal)

A time of 30 to 40 second is good. Closer to 30 second, indicates a stronger booster system and a good Toyota brake fluid. (non Toyota brake fluids, often result in longer charge times)

Remember also: low voltage, time will be longer as motor/pump run slower.

If time over 40 seconds, re-bleed.
View attachment 3840724

7) Now cap those bleeders, with rubber bleeder caps. But first blow out the fluid from bleeder. Brake fluid is hydroscopic, and bleeder will will if fluid left in them.

Get rid of old rubber bleeder caps, that are beyond serviceable life.
View attachment 3840725

Blow out bleeders, with shop air or a can of keyboard dust blaster (compressed air).
View attachment 3840727

I then blow in brake cleaner. Shop air again, and then add a few drops of WD-40, which is a water displacement agent.
Then cap bleeders, with good rubber caps.
View attachment 3840726

Works for all 100 series and 200 series.
You can once done. Air bleed through tech stream. Or Drive ~30MPH on dirt road, and slam on brakes 4 times. Which activates ABS, and moves move fluid through ABS valves.

Notes:

If bleeder clogged, it will likely need replacing. They get clogged because of rust inside bleeder, due to not being capped. Rear bleeders, are the ones I see having issue the most. If rust gets into bleeder seat of caliper. New bleeder will weep. Then a new caliper is needed.

If not OEM caliper and or bleeder match, we see angle of seat issues. These are a PITA and may leak. It is one of the reasons, I avoid non OEM bleeders and calipers.

Once done, if one really want all out we can get. Which some was held in caliper chambers. We need to compress caliper pistons with it's bleeder open. Then re-bleed, just that tiny bit of air, that may have entered if not very careful. We flush first. So fresh fluid is in line and ready to enter caliper.
Hi 2001LC. IM ALL SET up with the vehicle up on stands all wheels off.

Brake pedal pressed.
Ignition on
Bleeder nipple well open and checked for any rust or blockage. Nipple Is healthy.
But the fluid is coming out of back bleed nipple extremely slow.
It’s taking about 15 minutes to take out 500ml.

Is this normal?
 
Hi 2001LC. IM ALL SET up with the vehicle up on stands all wheels off.

Brake pedal pressed.
Ignition on
Bleeder nipple well open and checked for any rust or blockage. Nipple Is healthy.
But the fluid is coming out of back bleed nipple extremely slow.
It’s taking about 15 minutes to take out 500ml.

Is this normal?
  1. Make sure battery 12.4 Volts or better. I attach a charger. Keeps booster motor running fast.
  2. Let booster motor run until stops, before open a bleed. Should be less than 40 seconds. Do not run more than 2 minutes without give rest to cool.
  3. Only open one bleeder at a time.
  4. Very often these bleeders are clogged, due to not always having been caps. You can remove the bleeder and clean up or replace. But do so when brake pedal not held down. Or you'll make a big mess on your floor. In some I will depress brake pedal for a moment, with blleder out. To blow crud out of caliper bleeder port. Mess!
 
I’m y
 
  1. Make sure battery 12.4 Volts or better. I attach a charger. Keeps booster motor running fast.
  2. Let booster motor run until stops, before open a bleed. Should be less than 40 seconds. Do not run more than 2 minutes without give rest to cool.
  3. Only open one bleeder at a time.
  4. Very often these bleeders are clogged, due to not always having been caps. You can remove the bleeder and clean up or replace. But do so when brake pedal not held down. Or you'll make a big mess on your floor. In some I will depress brake pedal for a moment, with blleder out. To blow crud out of caliper bleeder port. Mess!
Thank you my friend.
I checked the bleed nipple and it is perfect. It had a very good rubber cover on it as well.

The accumulator took exactly 40 seconds to recharge after 40 pedal discharge.

I have battery charger on as well.

I’m just surprised how slow the brake fluid is coming out.

I even removed bleed nipple but fluid still only coming out at very very slow rate.

I’m on the second bleed of the first rear nipple again now and still very slow output.

Probably going to take 15-25 minutes to fill a 500ml jug I am bleeding into
 
Could mean air in the system. If so, once you've flushed and bleed all 4 corners. Flow from a single rear bleeder, should be much greater.
 
Thank you my friend.
I checked the bleed nipple and it is perfect. It had a very good rubber cover on it as well.

The accumulator took exactly 40 seconds to recharge after 40 pedal discharge.

I have battery charger on as well.

I’m just surprised how slow the brake fluid is coming out.

I even removed bleed nipple but fluid still only coming out at very very slow rate.

I’m on the second bleed of the first rear nipple again now and still very slow output.

Probably going to take 15-25 minutes to fill a 500ml jug I am bleeding into
I meant to say, my accumulator seems to be working perfectly. However given my comments re very slow discharge bleed rate on rear bleed nipples I took a few timings.

The accumulator takes about 6 seconds to recharge itself during the open bleed nipple at rear wheel.

It takes 23 seconds between each recharge. Meaning, when fully charged, it takes 28 seconds until it turns on again to recharge.

As for “flow rate” out of rear brake bleed nipples. It takes 56-57 seconds to discharge 50ml into my measuring cup.

This would equate to approx 10 minutes to discharge 500ml. or 10 minutes to discharge just slightly over 1/2 quart.
 
Hi 2001LC.
Unfortunately I’m having a load of trouble.
Rear brakes all good.
All old fluid removed and new fluid in.
However I just can’t get the front brakes to bleed. Going from froth to nothing to fluid to froth.
There is air pressure coming out at times when you open bleed nipples

I have followed your instructions to the Tee.
But no joy after at least an hour of trying.

Ignition on and letting accumulator charge up.
Then pushing brake pedal maybe up to 20 times before opening the bleed nipple momentarily making sure no air is sucked back into the calliper.

Getting a tad desperate now.
 
You must be holding down brake pedal, the open bleeder. Close bleeder, then release brake pedal, pump 5 times and hold.
Repeat 10 times.

Never release brake pedal with a bleeder open.
Never open a bleeder without holding down brake pedal first.
 
You must be holding down brake pedal, the open bleeder. Close bleeder, then release brake pedal, pump 5 times and hold.
Repeat 10 times.

Never release brake pedal with a bleeder open.
Never open a bleeder without holding down brake pedal first.
Unfortunately I am beginning to think I have some as yet undetected problem.
I am following your directions diligently. The pedal is pressed in and out approx 5-6 times. Then pedal pressed,
While pedal pressed I open brake bleeder for no more than a second and close bleeder while pedal is still pressed.

I have repeated this process many many times but I’m getting a lot of air coming out sometimes frothy fluid.

The opposite front wheel (the one below Master Cylinder) is bleeding a bit better with good clean fluid coming out but the Front Left is giving me a load of problem.

My car is Right Hand Drive with Master Cylinder on Right
So I bled RR.
Replaced all fluid with new fluid (I did 6 cycles)
Then I bled RL
All went well.
Trouble started when I tried to bleed FL as described above.
After fighting with FL for over an hour I moved to FR and it bled good.
But FL is still either spurting out air or is spurting out Frothy fluid.

I’m wondering if air trapped in the ABS module could be causing this issue ?

Many thanks for your patience 2001LC.
 
Nice video.
But two changes:
  1. When I flushing accumulator 5 times: I take reservoir lower during this procedure. So that when accumulator evacuate (pump 40 time IG key off) back into resevoir, I have ~1". I pouring in ~1/2 bottle Toyota brake fluid, doubles volume of fluid in reservoir to about 2" level. Saves fluid.
  2. Once accumulator flush, the 5 times. Fill reservoir, keep it above low line from here on out.
Make sure battery voltage at 12.4 volts or better for timing test.
 
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