fj803fe said:
Do you really think in a panic situation you are going to consider the limits of your vehicle?
Annual lecture on rollover danger
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Do you really think in a panic situation you are going to consider the limits of your vehicle?
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landtank said:
Yes
Tools R Us said:
A tractor trailer cuts you off on the highway doing 75 mph, regardless if your truck can handle it or not you are going to yank that wheel and try to get out of the way, if it's severe enough to topple you, you're going over.
But you're saying that in that moment you'll realise that the maneuver is beyond your setup and you'll let the truck hit you, I don't believe you.
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landtank said:
Avoiding the truck would be the lesser of two evils, so yes roll the truck if necessary.
The problem is most Americans have never driven their vehicles at the limit, so they have no idea where the limit is or more importantly what to do, or how it will handle in an emergency driving situation.
Tools R Us said:Avoiding the truck would be the lesser of two evils, so yes roll the truck if necessary.
The problem is most Americans have never driven their vehicles at the limit, so they have no idea where the limit is or more importantly what to do, or how it will handle in an emergency driving situation.
I take it you will agree where the limit is has almost everything to do with road conditions. Many times a driver will know his or her limit but fail to adjust it downward when road conditions deteriorate.
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landtank said:
But yes there have been times that I have allowed other vehicles to hit me and have purposely run into/over things that I would have preferred not to, because avoiding them was outside of the handling limits and in the lesser of two evils category. It's easy to talk about what you would do, or Monday morning quarterback after the fact, but when it happens you have NO time and fall back on your experience and training. If you don't have any at the limit driving training or experience your SOL, hit the fat pedal, hold on, close your eyes and let State Farm pickup the pieces like most American drivers!
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Hawke said:
Agreed, but knowing the "at the limit" handling characteristics of the vehicle is the most critical thing to saving your or someone else's bacon.
Without endangering others, test the limits of your vehicle and your driving skills every time you get a chance. Learn how to drive your machine and when the time comes you will act accordingly knowing what you and your vehicle can and can't do.
When I'm alone in my rig I will test the cornering of my rig all the time. Even more so now that I removed the sway bars.
I've spent some years as a commercial driver and one thing I can guarantee you is that it is FAR TO EASY for any dumbass to get a regular license. Most people really have no business behind the wheel, but if they made it harder to get a license then where would the state get all that juicy revenue.
Go get your commercial license and drive a big rig for a while, it will change your whole outlook and relationship with your vehicle. You will learn how to drive.
When I'm alone in my rig I will test the cornering of my rig all the time. Even more so now that I removed the sway bars.
I've spent some years as a commercial driver and one thing I can guarantee you is that it is FAR TO EASY for any dumbass to get a regular license. Most people really have no business behind the wheel, but if they made it harder to get a license then where would the state get all that juicy revenue.
Go get your commercial license and drive a big rig for a while, it will change your whole outlook and relationship with your vehicle. You will learn how to drive.
The point I was getting at is that while you might not drive the vehicle intentionally beyond it's limits sometimes the situation will push you to.
Saying that I raised my truck, did nothing about caster but since I know it drives somewhat squirrelly, I'm ok because I'm careful. That's just crazy. I'm sure my age is showing here, but I've seen enough over the years to take it real serious.
Although I haven't been through 3 terrible rollovers yet so maybe I'm talking out my ass.
Saying that I raised my truck, did nothing about caster but since I know it drives somewhat squirrelly, I'm ok because I'm careful. That's just crazy. I'm sure my age is showing here, but I've seen enough over the years to take it real serious.
Although I haven't been through 3 terrible rollovers yet so maybe I'm talking out my ass.
MaddBaggins said:
4 years ago I was heading up to Niagra Falls, Canada. Minding my own business going 65 MPH in the right lane with 2 other passengers I was suddenly cut off from the left. Luckily I was at a ramp which I took at 65. The truck's right rear wheel was probably off the ground and most of the trucks weight was on the front left tire. I had 315 BFG AT's on and the truck was nose down and sliding sideways as I was negotiating the turn. The adrenaline shakes afterwards where pretty intense.
I have no desire to find some desolate road somewhere and repeat that again for developing my skills. That was as close to the limits of car and driver that I ever want to be.
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My first career was a Japanese/German car mechanic, part of that time I managed an import wrecking yard, my duties included evaluating, bidding on and transporting wrecks from insurance yards, some of these vehicles we rebuilt. In my next career I sold automotive tools and equipment, a large number of my customers were body shops, so I have seen more wrecked cars than most! I have also watched a '97 FZJ80 roll at low speed on the trail and participated in the recovery and reconstruction of said truck. From that experience I rate the Land Cruisers construction as top notch, able to take a hell of a beating that would crush lesser vehicles.
The first car I rolled was a '60 VW Baja, ditching school racing across the desert to Tasty Freeze to get ice cream between classes. I was on a trail that I drove just about everyday, going about 60MPH and caught a rut just right to launch the car onto it's roof and we went pirouetting across the desert on the roof! I learned a few valuable lessons from that experience;
First as I bounced across the desert with my back against the roof I felt very helpless because I couldn't reach the controls, if the car had righted it's self I would not have been able to get back to them in time to prevent a second hit or roll. Seat belts are a good thing, their main purpose is to hold you in place to prevent injury, but also you may be able to prevent a second hit if your still in the seat and in control. This was later confirmed in a big way when I offroad raced, you can't hold yourself in place in a high gee situation and if your trying to, you cant control the vehicle! I am so bad about it that I get grief form the wife for putting them on to back the car out of the driveway, but it's automatic, they go on before the car is shifted into gear.
When the car stopped I turned off the motor and we rolled up, err opened the windows and crawled out. My buddy looked at the car on it's roof with no damage other than the roof it was sitting on and started laughing at me, this is a good thing, if he's laughing after that, he isn't injured too bad and I can inflect the injury for laughing.
About that time we heard a groaning from the car and remembered our other buddy Tim. Tim is a Polio survivor that weighs about 75 LB and is laying in the car with the battery swinging over his head, on the bug the battery is under the rear seat, it had broken it's mount and was swinging by the cables. We pulled him out and found his only injury was from being clocked in the head by an oil can, yes it was that long ago! I then realized the it could have been much worse, I had been camping the day before and had cleaned out the car that morning, including an ax and big hammer from behind the seat! Secure all cargo, you can very easily be killed by your own cargo!
The wreck was my fault. It had rained, something that is rare here, the rut I hit was under water. I should not have been bombing across the desert in the mud at 60+ MPH! If I had been in school where I belonged, it never would have happened. But I learned painful, valuable lessons from it. I bought an another body for the car and never put it on, we beat the roof back up, installed a new windshield and found that it was much more fun now that we didn't care about the body!
Most Americans treat driving as a right, it's not, it's a privilege that carries deadly responsibility, a car is every bit as deadly as a loaded hand gun and judging from the accident statistics more effective. This thread was started about some girl that rolled her truck, sad, but what do we know about it? She was probably trying to not spill her coffee, while muching on a bagel, talking on the phone and changing a DVD for the kids, oh and "driving" too! It has launched a frenzy about roll cages, but how many people on this forum have rolled 80s in accident avoidance maneuvers?
All of my family and a bunch of our friends learned to drive in beater VW Baja's or buggies on dirt roads, great training. Not everybody can do that, if you want to invest in safety equipment for yourself and loved ones, I recommend a good quality driving school, not the kind down at the high school where they teach how to properly park, a racing type school where they teach car control and have a skid pad. We can debate "my Volva will beat your Saab" all day but the most survivable accident is the one that never happened or was minimized by an alert, knowledgeable driver that is in control of the vehicle!
Sorry for the rant, but the level of "driving" incompetence in this country
me off!
The first car I rolled was a '60 VW Baja, ditching school racing across the desert to Tasty Freeze to get ice cream between classes. I was on a trail that I drove just about everyday, going about 60MPH and caught a rut just right to launch the car onto it's roof and we went pirouetting across the desert on the roof! I learned a few valuable lessons from that experience;
First as I bounced across the desert with my back against the roof I felt very helpless because I couldn't reach the controls, if the car had righted it's self I would not have been able to get back to them in time to prevent a second hit or roll. Seat belts are a good thing, their main purpose is to hold you in place to prevent injury, but also you may be able to prevent a second hit if your still in the seat and in control. This was later confirmed in a big way when I offroad raced, you can't hold yourself in place in a high gee situation and if your trying to, you cant control the vehicle! I am so bad about it that I get grief form the wife for putting them on to back the car out of the driveway, but it's automatic, they go on before the car is shifted into gear.
When the car stopped I turned off the motor and we rolled up, err opened the windows and crawled out. My buddy looked at the car on it's roof with no damage other than the roof it was sitting on and started laughing at me, this is a good thing, if he's laughing after that, he isn't injured too bad and I can inflect the injury for laughing.
About that time we heard a groaning from the car and remembered our other buddy Tim. Tim is a Polio survivor that weighs about 75 LB and is laying in the car with the battery swinging over his head, on the bug the battery is under the rear seat, it had broken it's mount and was swinging by the cables. We pulled him out and found his only injury was from being clocked in the head by an oil can, yes it was that long ago! I then realized the it could have been much worse, I had been camping the day before and had cleaned out the car that morning, including an ax and big hammer from behind the seat! Secure all cargo, you can very easily be killed by your own cargo!
The wreck was my fault. It had rained, something that is rare here, the rut I hit was under water. I should not have been bombing across the desert in the mud at 60+ MPH! If I had been in school where I belonged, it never would have happened. But I learned painful, valuable lessons from it. I bought an another body for the car and never put it on, we beat the roof back up, installed a new windshield and found that it was much more fun now that we didn't care about the body!
Most Americans treat driving as a right, it's not, it's a privilege that carries deadly responsibility, a car is every bit as deadly as a loaded hand gun and judging from the accident statistics more effective. This thread was started about some girl that rolled her truck, sad, but what do we know about it? She was probably trying to not spill her coffee, while muching on a bagel, talking on the phone and changing a DVD for the kids, oh and "driving" too! It has launched a frenzy about roll cages, but how many people on this forum have rolled 80s in accident avoidance maneuvers?
All of my family and a bunch of our friends learned to drive in beater VW Baja's or buggies on dirt roads, great training. Not everybody can do that, if you want to invest in safety equipment for yourself and loved ones, I recommend a good quality driving school, not the kind down at the high school where they teach how to properly park, a racing type school where they teach car control and have a skid pad. We can debate "my Volva will beat your Saab" all day but the most survivable accident is the one that never happened or was minimized by an alert, knowledgeable driver that is in control of the vehicle!
Sorry for the rant, but the level of "driving" incompetence in this country
me off!
Tools R Us said:
You forgot that her left foot was resting on the dash!
I have a daughter who just got her license 6 months ago, I'm scared for her all the time. This is her first winter so it's especially bad for me.
re_guderian said:Makes me glad my DD is my Toyota Avalon, and the 80 only gets used for wheeling trips. Not that an accident couldn't happen to and from, but less miles = less likely. Plus, after 7+ years of driving an FJ60, I'm used to driving slow, so I don't "push it". You do what you can, and don't worry about buying trouble...
Only problem with cars as DD's is they're lower than what you're going to run into around here. Wife had a F-150 pull out in fron of her in her saturn SL. If it'd been a 4x4 she wouldn't have hit anything solid until the frame of the truck hit the windshield. She's in a CR-V now that she's pregnant. Most likely accident around here will be with another SUV or truck, there are many more on the road than cars. Same thing where my folks live in Wyoming. 90% of the cars on the street are SUV's or Trucks. Cars don't fair well in collisions against SUV's.
rollover danger experienced today
I have a LX450 with so soft suspension that it is parked until OME is fitted, so I am driving the '01 cruiser loaded with stuff in boxes piled floor to roof from back of front seat to tailgate, OEM tires at 38psi. At 45mph I entered a rather sharp curve and went a tad too far into the curve before turning. That little tug on the wheel caused the cruiser to lurch and I heard a few little beeps. I assume that it was one of the safety features working or it was informing me that I almost turned over on a residential street!! I am ordering Billsteins and OME heavy springs this week for the cruiser. I studied the photos of Phil's cage and think that a shortie helmet would be enough for me off road, and driving down the street-- seat belt and stiffer suspension.
I have a LX450 with so soft suspension that it is parked until OME is fitted, so I am driving the '01 cruiser loaded with stuff in boxes piled floor to roof from back of front seat to tailgate, OEM tires at 38psi. At 45mph I entered a rather sharp curve and went a tad too far into the curve before turning. That little tug on the wheel caused the cruiser to lurch and I heard a few little beeps. I assume that it was one of the safety features working or it was informing me that I almost turned over on a residential street!! I am ordering Billsteins and OME heavy springs this week for the cruiser. I studied the photos of Phil's cage and think that a shortie helmet would be enough for me off road, and driving down the street-- seat belt and stiffer suspension.
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I'm not sure most of you understand just how real and how close you and I are to a rollover. While it may come as a surprise, particularly in light of the above comments about a rollover on a city street etc, that I could roll ANY of your trucks in a flat paved parking lot within 3 minutes of you handing me the keys. Most of the time I could pull it off in about 60 seconds - the amount of time it would take me to yank it back and forth to judge the frequency to turn it over.
I've stated this before, and yesterday I was talking with my bro in law who agreed that 3 minutes would be the outside limit. No problem. The only qualification he added (interestingly) was that it can't be done so easily if the vehicle has Stability Control (the braking system that applies the brakes) and possibly not at all with SC.
SUVs roll and the average Joe has no real concept how easy they are to roll.
Wanna scare yourself? Go into a deserted parking lot and at about 25mph yank the wheel back and forth in progressively larger arcs until you lose your nerve. Do it with a car and you'll comfortably reach the point where the tires are squealing heavily back and forth.
Not trying to be "Mr Gloom" - just want you all to have your awareness heightened regarding daily drivers with lifts, etc. It's all good until the unexpected happens so buckle up and drive safely.
DougM
I've stated this before, and yesterday I was talking with my bro in law who agreed that 3 minutes would be the outside limit. No problem. The only qualification he added (interestingly) was that it can't be done so easily if the vehicle has Stability Control (the braking system that applies the brakes) and possibly not at all with SC.
SUVs roll and the average Joe has no real concept how easy they are to roll.
Wanna scare yourself? Go into a deserted parking lot and at about 25mph yank the wheel back and forth in progressively larger arcs until you lose your nerve. Do it with a car and you'll comfortably reach the point where the tires are squealing heavily back and forth.
Not trying to be "Mr Gloom" - just want you all to have your awareness heightened regarding daily drivers with lifts, etc. It's all good until the unexpected happens so buckle up and drive safely.
DougM
Walking Eagle said:
Maybe true, but I'll still take my chances. Factor in single vehicle crashes, collisions with trucks/SUV's that are not "monster", f-dude lifted, and collisions with wheels and other parts of monster, f-dude trucks that aren't 5 feet off the ground, coupled with my VSC, ABS and low COG to help avoid crashes in the first place, front and side airbags, and an impressive crumple zone, and I'll still take the Avalon any day, even in your neck of the woods. It's a numbers game. There's always that "one scenario" where even the perfect protection won't work. You just gotta play the odds.
Today I took my family wheeling, and on the way there an back in the cruiser I didn't go over the speed limit, in fact, usually under it. It's actually a more enjoyable ride, not having to "white-knuckle" it all the way. This thread was still fresh in mind.
