Wake up and smell the politics

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Cdaniel

Undocumented Mechanic-I Am Not CDAN
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Wake up and smell the politics (Updated)

With the current threads on STL permits and disappointment, I thought I would share this:
I received this obviously misguided plea for my money in my mail. Surely my address was provided to them somehow through my correspondence and comments on past land use issues with forest service.

This is just a small sample of the propaganda against you.

I plan to send them a letter in their self addressed envelope. :mad:

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I want to read your response!
 
That is the trouble-- the other side always seems to be more organized and more active. Who/what/where is our counter orginization?

Jared
 
That is the trouble-- the other side always seems to be more organized and more active. Who/what/where is our counter orginization?

Jared

Blue Ribbon Coalition is about the best advocate on the access for all side.
 
That is the trouble-- the other side always seems to be more organized and more active. Who/what/where is our counter orginization?

Jared

I will support/participate and engage every responsible interested individual I know to develop such an organization.
 
WOW "460,000 miles of road" I need to get out more

At the rate they're "mushrooming" you'll never catch up. Right now you'll have to circle the earth approximately 4.8 dozen times :rolleyes:
 
Bunny Huggers!


How do I get ahold of BRC if I wanna donate to the cause?
 
Did it have a prepaid return envelope? If so draw a check box and add your own snide response. Then you've cost them twenty some cents (bulk rate).
 
Did it have a prepaid return envelope? If so draw a check box and add your own snide response. Then you've cost them twenty some cents (bulk rate).

Naw, the cheap bastards won't even pay for postage for the privilege of sending them money.

It's worth the stamp to use their envelope though.
 
Howdy! There is another, local organization that works very hard to maintain our rights of access to public land. Here is the current issue that they are working on. Our club could join theses folks if we wanted to support them.:

From: "Sandee McCullen" <sandee@mccullens.com>
To: "Sandee McCullen" <sandee@mccullens.com>
Subject: URGENT NOTICE: COPPER STICKER FOR OHV


NOTICE OF PUBLIC MEETINGS

AND

INFORMATION BEHIND WHAT THIS BILL IS ABOUT.
PLEASE take a couple of minutes and review this report. How this Bill moves forward and WHO gets the shaft from it depends on YOU.

The original intent of this Bill was to get some OHV laws on the books so the yahoos out there could be controlled or cited. It also is funded by US thusly we should be the beneficiaries of these funds. The intent was not to PAY G&F, nor was it intended to pay outright for total conservation as is being demanded by the enviros. Yes, it INCLUDES a substantial amount for Law Enforcement but if there is not an infrastructure to "enforce" there's no need for the Copper Sticker. It's to HELP the land management agencies MANAGE the lands and trail systems for US. This does include helping private land owners or ranchers leasing federal or state lands but only involving OHV.

BOTTOM LINE:
1) MUST be a USER DRIVEN BILL
2) MUST be the OHV proposal WITH the RESOLUTION issues
3) MUST be a "USER FEE" for all.

Will NOT SUPPORT any other way.

THANKS to all for your attention to this very critical issue!

PLEASE PASS THIS ON TO YOUR CLUB/GROUPS AND FRIENDS, FAMILY, NEIGHBORS OR ANYONE INVOLVED IN OHV RECREATION.

Sandee

Arizona Game and Fish Department
NEWS RELEASE
For immediate release Oct. 16, 2006

Public input sought on Arizona?s OHV management bill

PHOENIX ? The Arizona Game and Fish Department, on behalf of the Off-highway Vehicle Legislative Workgroup, is seeking input from the public regarding the ?Copper Sticker? off-highway vehicle (OHV) user fee proposed legislation. A series of informational open houses will be held around the state in October and November, and written comment will be accepted until Nov. 26.

The Off-highway Vehicle Legislative Workgroup, a group comprised of OHV recreationists and outdoor user groups, land management agencies, county and local governments, and Game and Fish, have worked together to develop a ?copper sticker? program to improve OHV management in Arizona. The bill will enhance funding for OHV programs including the maintenance and development of OHV trails and routes, education and information programs, enhanced law enforcement resources and mitigation for damage to environmental, historical and cultural resources from OHV recreation.

Informational public meetings describing the OHV user driven bill?s highlights will be held from 7 to 9 p.m. on the following dates:

Tuesday, Oct. 24 - Tucson, Arizona Game and Fish Department regional office 555 N. Greasewood Road

Wednesday, Oct. 25 - Benson, Cochise College-Benson Center 1025 S. Highway 90

Monday, Oct. 30 - Prescott, Prescott Valley Council Chambers 7501 E. Civic Circle

Thursday, Nov. 2 - Pinetop, Arizona Game and Fish Department regional office 2878 E. White Mountain Boulevard

Friday, Nov. 3 - Mesa, City Of Mesa Utilities Department 640 North Mesa Drive

Monday, Nov. 6 - Yuma, Arizona Game and Fish Department regional office 9140 E. 28th Street

Tuesday, Nov. 7 - Kingman, Arizona Game and Fish Department regional office 5325 N. Stockton Hill Road

Wednesday, Nov. 8 - Flagstaff, Arizona Game and Fish Department regional office 3500 S. Lake Mary Road

Wednesday, Nov. 15 - Glendale, Glendale Foothills Branch Library 19055 N. 57th Avenue

Thursday, Nov. 16 - Safford, Eastern Arizona College Bonita Room 1014 N. College Avenue

The proposed legislation can be downloaded and additional information can be obtained from the department?s Web site at azgfd.gov/ohv.

Written comment can submitted until Nov. 26 at the meetings, through the Game and Fish Web site or by U.S. mail to OHV Comments, c/o Joe Sacco, Arizona Game and Fish Department, 2221 W. Greenway Road, Phoenix, AZ 85023-4399.

At this time the Arizona OHV Coalition (AZOHVC) is in a "holding" stance regarding support but unless G&F accept the OHV proposal along with the AZOHVC Resolution, the Coalition will not support this bill and will ask all OHV to help KILL it. It MUST REMAIN A "USER DRIVEN BILL" as has been proposed and I believe you will hear in the upcoming meetings but G&F have now decided it's to be a "COOPERATIVE BILL" and they plan on presenting THEIR VERSION to the legislature. Last year between G&F outright lieing and submitting a proposal that was not agreed to by the Task Team, and then the legislature tore it apart from there, the OHV community KILLED all three bills G&F kept submitting. This year G&F asked the OHV members of the Task Team to "draft a proposal". We did............. It was submitted to the Task Team and the Team agreed to all of it other than WHO would be required to purchase a Copper Sticker. The draft proposal asked that EVERYONE driving a vehicle off a highway or maintained road/trail would need a CS. This included the equestrians that drive their one ton truck with a horse trailer behind them; or the mountain biker driving his mini=truck or car with his bike on top or in the back heading to his favorite bike trail; OR the Sierra Clubber or bird watcher heading to a Wilderness area or bird watching area. They're all doing "impact" and "using" the trails. G&F INSIST the street licensed/registered full sized vehicles do not need a CS, thusly eliminating all recreationists that are "using" the trails but are not OHV recreation specific. The original intent was this was to be a USER FEE. Just for specific "users"?????????????

ALL ATV's, licensed or not, ALL MC, licensed or not and Unlicensed 4x4's MUST HAVE A COPPER STICKER............

There are numerous other issues G&F have eliminated from the proposal. The AZ OHV Coalition drafted a RESOLUTION (see below) with REQUIREMENTS of issues that must be back in the bill proposal. In the general Task Team meeting last week, G&F REFUSED to even look at the Resolution. They announced the G&F Commission directed them to PUSH FORWARD with the bill..... period. For the past year or more G&F have declared this was to be a "USER DRIVEN BILL" but now that the environmentalists have joined in this (they are DEMANDING the dollar breakdown of the 50% of the funds to go to OHV MUST BE 75% to Law Enforcement). The bill is now being heralded as a "COOPERATIVE BILL". To make matters worse, because G&F don't like what OHV have asked for they have now pulled all OHV Gas Tax project funding from us. It's being used as a blackmail technique.

(The dollar breakdown within the proposed bill)
7% Game & Fish for Administration (Last year they moved this % around so it read that they received 7% OFF THE TOP.... The rest of the %'s were from the 93% left. I will bet my boots they may look to try this again)

15% Game & Fish for G&F Law Enforcement

18% Game & Fish for Education (remember they already receive $800,000.00 per year for OHV Education & Law Enforcement from the OHV Gas Tax Fund)

10% State Land Dept. for an OHV Program

50% OHV......... Covering projects; grants; education AND Law Enforcement to the feds, county or city officers.

Some background info:
At this time the OHV Coalition is not actually asking to KILL the bill but we ask each and every one of you attend the meetings and DEMAND they put the issues from the Coalition RESOLUTION into the proposal presented by the OHV Task Team that THEY (G&F) requested. AZVJC & ASA4WDC are the two largest member groups of the Coalition thusly giving each of you the ability to state you support the resolution. There are also ATV and MC clubs that MUST stand up and support their sport. They have numbers the will show our depth. ATV's and MC should not be solely responsible for funding G&F. We're trying to get a meeting with G&F Director to determine how much of this blackmail and "cooperative bill" stuff is coming from the Director and/or G&F Commission vs one individual.............. Mike Senn. Joe Sacco will be directing all of the meetings and although he IS G&F and must follow the directives from his boss (Mike Senn) he is a nice guy. He is truly trying to be up front and fair........

Their excuse at this time for the requirement they demand of 3 members to be on the Advisory Group is they believe "anyone within a business should have a fair say in how it acts or votes". They are not members of a business they are simply WELL PAID ADMINISTRATORS (Bookkeepers) to act within the parameters set forth. The bad side of this whole thing is the G&F Commission have the final say no matter how we go so it's my belief having an Advisory Group isn't worth anything. They'll be overrulled any time a grant or disbursement is approved that G&F don't agree to.

Request: The AZOHVC simply ask each of you require G&F to accept the issues as presented in the Resolution as well as get back to this being a "USER DRIVEN BILL". WE (the OHV Recreationists) are the one's paying for this, WE should be the ruling guide as to how and/or where the dollars are spent. If an agreement cannot be reached we (OHV community) can KILL the bill at that time.

Sandee

RESOLUTION
OHV Copper Sticker Program

The Arizona Off-Highway Vehicle Coalition, as officially set forth by unanimous vote of the Board of Directors on September 30, 2006

HEREBY RESOLVES to support and go forth with the Copper Sticker OHV laws and funding as amended below.

1) We agree that a Search and Rescue Fund would be a valuable addition to the bill but it is not a requirement at this time. However, the AZOHVC would like to see further investigation into how a fund of this type can be created.

2) We agree there must be a clause in the bill indicating the bill will be withdrawn due to major changes of the intent of the bill, i.e.: if we decided that the laws and penalties, along with the fees and how the Copper Sticker dollars will be distributed, would be the most important aspects of the bill and if those change or are pulled, the bill goes away.

3) We agree on a fee structure not to exceed $20.00 for the first sticker. Additional stickers will be half price for all vehicles titled to the same person.

4) We require a 60% cap on funds disbursed by the AZG&F. The cap cannot be used in the same disbursement categories two or more consecutive years. A ?Grant Guidelines? must also be developed.

The guidelines shall include, but not limited to:
a. Will this fund be reimbursement or direct pay upfront?
b. Follow basic AZ State Parks Grant guidelines.
c. Pay for NEPA?. How much?
d. Do grants require match dollars?... If so how much etc.
The development of Guidelines shall be a consensus of the task group and can be a cause for failure of this bill if a consensus is not reached.

5) We would like vehicle dealers to be able to sell Copper Sticker decals.

6) We agree that any event or action under a Special Permit or hunting fishing license, while actively hunting or fishing, shall be exempt from the Copper Sticker requirement.

7) We agree a qualified lobbyist must be retained to help with legislative support for the bill. AZOHVC can provide OHV user testimony when needed, however, we do not have the resources required to drive legislative support actions. AZOHVC will not support the bill without this requirement being fulfilled.

8) The AZOHVC does not agree to the proposed changes allowing AZ Game & Fish to appoint three of the seven OHVAG appointee?s to the OHVAG. It is felt the current OHVAG nomination and appointment process allows for the most qualified person(s) to be appointed. We understand that Arizona Game & Fish is only looking to ensure the integrity of a program it would be administrator of, however, we feel the current process already allows for this requirement.

AZOHVC will agree to: (THIS is simply proposed as a "compromise"……. OHV proposal requested the Az State Parks OHV Advisory Group stay as is functioning…….. If G&F cannot compromise on anything it will simply go back to "NO SEATS on OHVAG).

1.a) Agree to allow Arizona Game and Fish (AZG&F) to appoint two representatives to the OHV Advisory Group.
No more than two AZG&F appointees may serve on the OHVAG at the same time.

2.a) No more then one AZG&F appointee may represent a single county at any time.

3.a) Appointees must be from the official OHVAG applications submitted to State Parks.

4.a) Seats must serve the 3 year appointed terms. AZG&F cannot pull their appointments each year or mid term to replace with other appointees.

1.b) AZOHVC will not support the Copper Sticker bill if AZG&F requires more then two positions on the board and do not agree to the stipulations as stated.

IT IS FURTHER RESOLVED AZOHVC acknowledge this Bill is to be an OHV User driven bill and is ready and prepared to support the Copper Sticker bill with these minor concessions.

Respectfully submitted,

Chris Benner, Secretary
Don Hood, President
Jim Florence, V.P.
Sandee McCullen, Treasurer
Steve Carmickle, Past President
Jeff Gursh, Executive Director
Sanford Cohen, Executive Director
 
"...7) We agree a qualified lobbyist must be retained to help with legislative support for the bill. AZOHVC can provide OHV user testimony when needed, however, we do not have the resources required to drive legislative support actions. AZOHVC will not support the bill without this requirement being fulfilled..."

I'm in full agreement with how you folks are tackling this (especially the 'everybody pays' part)....yet is insisting that 'somebody' cover the lobbyist expense something that is agreed upon before or after both sides have readied the bill to be moved forward effectively hand-in-hand?

Thanks,

John
 
Howdy! I just recieved the following letter from Arizona State Association of Four Wheel Drive Clubs. We need people familiar with the Florence Junction area to get involved in this. If the "greenies" and AZ Fish and Game have their way, we will loose access to about 90% of the trails out there. If they will this one, then they will just keep winning and we can save our 4x4 rigs for the Show and Shines, becuase there won't be any trails left. This is way too close to home, folks. Sorry for the band width, but we need to take action now, before it is too late!! John



Subject: Florence Junction Trails - Update

This just in from Sandee McCullen on our Florence Junction trails. I didn’t want to send this out to the entire membership, but it needs to get to the club leadership.

Joe

Florence Junction Up date...........

The task team from the MGCP, (Middle Gila Conservation Area) developed, with the help and guidance of Advanced Resource Solutions and their Evaluation Tree process, three alternatives for the 986 miles of trails that were inventoried in the pilot area (north of Kelvin-Florence Hwy to Hwy 60. Hwy 79 on the west, Hwy 177/77 on the east) of the Florence Junction area.

The three alternatives (recommended a primarily OPEN concept; the enviromentalists of course CLOSED 95%+; and the "tweeners" group recommended an in-between alternative. BLM was then going to develop a Preferred Alternative. This would give 5 alternatives to the public at the time of "scoping". THAT is not going to happen for 3-5 years from now.

BLM has now come back to the MGCP asking to form a special Task Team to "develop a Preferred Alternative". This is NOT GOOD FOR OHV.

As it stands right now G&F (of whom want EVERY WASH; EVERY TRAIL other than the major roads CLOSED because "we're fragmenting habitat") and the environmentalists want EVERYTHING CLOSED in this area. Too many roads/trails; NO CONSERVATION; no habitat protection; too much noise etc etc etc.

BLM is taking "names" of all groups (don't know the specifics yet) but each "group" is supposed to have representatives to review all the trails that G&F and Sir Francis have not identified to be "approved as open by all three alternatives". That leaves less than 100 miles out of 986. I'm told BLM will "appoint" the members.

IF OHV are involved we can hold BLM's feet to the fire in that they are mandated to produce "DATA" that signifies reason for closure.......... G&F & Enviros will simply use personal opinion or THEIR TRUMPED UP DATA OR STATISTICS as reason for closure. They (enviros & G&F) have almost gotten Martinez closed to us under an emergency closure. We heard of this proposed closure by accident and hopefully got it stopped for the time but they can do an Emergency Closure without any notice to the public.................. REMEMBER Jawbreaker????? Wilderness Society has already written to D.C. DEMANDING an Emergency Closure. I know of only ONE Emergency Closure (supposedly a max time of 3 years for rehab) that has ever been "re-opened". HOW MANY DO WE HAVE TO LOSE BEFORE IT GETS OUR ATTENTION?

Between now and the first of the new year BLM will be working at putting a Task Team together. Jan - March this task team will meet 2 or 3 WEEKENDS to review the 800 + miles of trails and hopefully reach some kind of compromise or agreement. The reason this is being done is G&F have wanted a MAP of trails for 6 years or more so they can cite any of us OFF any road/trail that is not identified on the map in his hand.

There are several issues yet to be clarified................ If the trails we cannot agree on (Those listed above will be a certainty) and they go back to BLM for designation: are they eliminated from this urgent map until BLM does their designations (remember........... 5 years from now) or do they remain "open" until the designations are done?

The existing RMP states: "OHV is allowed on all existing roads/trails except at Reymert. OHV use is not excluded in or around the riparian area in/near Martinez or the River.

What this means to OHV if we're not at the table:
GUARANTEED CLOSURE of Lower Woodpecker; Martinez Canyon (ALL of it, not just the extreme portion); Woody's Wash; OverDose; most likely Upper Woodpecker; H2H; Axle Alley and Broken Ankle. Many more will be on the hot seat!! This is not a threat. It will happen.

Please send your name, contact info, and a short bio reflecting how long you've been involved in OHV recreation. What do your drive/ride; family involved; how well do you know the FJ area.

Sandee McCullen
sandee@mccullens.com
 
I want to read your response!
Well here's my letter to be sent with their funding plea.

Some background info on these yahoos
http://www.fguardians.org/
(funding) http://www.wilburforce.org/
(funding) http://www.lazarfoundation.org/recipients/index_html?b_start:int=15
http://www.undueinfluence.com/antonio.htm

Dear Forest Guardians,

Thank you for sending your plea for funding. This gives me great insight into your strategy of misleading information with exaggerated and fabricated claims about the existence and usage of forest roads.

It’s appalling to me how organizations such as yours seek to cut off the usage of public lands from the public at large. Working to maintain access for only the chosen elite and enlightened members of our society. Namely well to do environmentalists and those they deem worthy of being on the land owned by all Americans.

Your assertion that all roads in Americas forests are inherently bad is complete nonsense. Many of these roads are vital for the health and protection of forests in case of wildfires. You state “Most of these roads were built to allow the timber industry to log ancient forests and they’ve left behind a mess of stumps, slash piles and bare soil.” Well, in all of my travels of hundreds of forest roads in Arizona, Colorado, California and Utah in my four wheel drive vehicle, I’ve never come across a clear cut of bare soil and stumps. I’m aware that these places exist and concede that in the past some forestry practices were not that good. But to claim that our entire country is “crisscrossed” with logging roads is ludicrous.

Fortunately there has been great progress in the wood product industry to make better land use decisions for the health of the forest and the benefit of the people that use that natural resource. People such as yourselves. Your letter proclaims to be printed on 100% recycled paper. Bully for you, quite commendable. But take a look around your office and consider what your life would be like if no one was allowed to harvest wood. Did your latte come in a paper cup? Is the frame of your building made from wood? Did you wipe your backside with toilet paper today? How many copies of memos did you print today?

The notion that all forest roads were created solely for the “evil” timber industry to devour the forest is also flat wrong. Many roads are left over from mining, historic stage or railroad routes and utility access to name a few. Many of the places I visit on forest roads are historic sites and scenic vistas. Places I can only visit by way of a motorized wheeled vehicle, as I’m physically unable to hike for miles on foot. A great many Americans are not able bodied enough to travel on foot. Your goal of road closures will deny these people the opportunity to visit the very places you hold so dear. So I guess that means you people are the only ones allowed to use our public land. To this I say, BACKOFF! There is plenty of undisturbed “wilderness” for you people to get away from the rest of us. Please go there.

Another claim spewing from the hyperbole in your letter is that there are enough roads in the forest to “circle the planet dozens of times”. Approximately 4.8 dozen times would be more accurate if you claim of 460,000 miles is to be believed. Also, the network of legal and illegal roads “mushrooming” out of control. I think you need to cut back on the mushrooms. There is no program of constantly cutting new roads into the back country landscape. The forest service can’t even maintain the roads they have already. Yes there is the 1% contingent of bad apples out there cutting trails near existing areas. But no one is out there blasting down trees, illegally tromping through miles and miles of forest. The 1% of idiots in the off road community are a problem and we are working on it. They are the exception not the rule. The majority of us are respectful and conscientious users of our public lands.

You say “the off-road industry wants to have every single acre of national forests open to motorized recreation” Where in the world do you people get the unmitigated gall to make a claim like this? This is pure propaganda and you know it. I guess you’re taking a page from the Joseph Goebbels playbook “repeat a lie enough times and it will become the truth”. Well some us are not so gullible to fall for it. In fact I think a lot of America is waking up to the crap you and your kind is trying to pull on us all. Maybe you should tell us all about Antonio DeVargas from Vallecitos, New Mexico in your propaganda. How you helped try to destroy his business and put people out of work in a small town. Of course you wouldn’t do that, the truth might make people think twice about giving you money.

So anyway, enough of this. I’m sure this letter will be chalked up to another rant from an off road vehicle wielding nut job. You’ll continue to ignore facts and perpetuate your lock it all away agenda. Maybe you really believe you’re doing a good thing. But you’re not. Extreme rather than balanced approaches to any situation don’t work. I’m curious as to how I came to be on you’re mailing list though. Did you purchase a list of sporting goods consumers? Thinking surely they would want to be on the team with self proclaimed “protectors of the environment”? Please, go ahead and keep me on the list. I really do appreciate having inside information on what you’re up to.

Sincerely
Cliff Daniel
Tempe, Arizona.
 
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Preach on Brother!!!
 
Copy this to a newspaper. Theirs and yours.

-Spike
 
This is an example of the problem. There is a minority of screamers who are vocal. Most of us who are reasonable and sensible are also more polite. We do not use fear and emotion to make our points. We don't hire lawyers to fight our battles. Instead, we suggest sensible solutions for real problems. We believe in practical use of our forest land. We are so polite that our voices are never heard.
I live in Prescott, Az, and since the oncet of fall weather we have had constant burning of our forest land both near the town and in wilderness areas all around us. There is usually a forest fire burning nearby. In most cases, businesses in the fire area are open and the roads are open to the public. Forest Service firefighters sit by their trucks eating sandwiches while they watch everything but the old growth trees go up in smoke! It is no less than spooky to drive through a forest that is a raging inferno, and to realize that if I pull off of the road, my tires will burn. It is effective in removing the fire-causing fuel from the forest, but it is also incredibly wasteful.
To me, this is a total waste caused by environmentalists. We are burning a huge amount of material that could be put to good use. Many forest products and paper goods could be made from the small lumber and brush that we are burning away.
We are paying with our taxes for firefighters to sit and eat sandwiches at $15-$25 per hour. I have considered applying for a job. Meanwhile, commercial companies are begging for contracts to remove the same brush from the forest and they are willing to pay us for the privilege! Thank God that the envionmentalists are saving us from ourselves!
 
Wow, well stated, Cliff! I agree with posting it as a "letter to the editor".
 

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