Where hooks the glow controller into the harness?

[bj40green]

Hi to everybody,

I'm the happy owner of a '78 BJ40. Starts good, runs good. That's not the problem. The problem is that the glow controller does not lit up no matter how long you glow. Assuming it was toast (and I was right) I bought a new one and after replacing it I found out that;
A. The situation is the same as before. Glow for 5 to 8 seconds and start. The controller does not lit up but the engine starts up fine.
B. There is no voltage on (both sides of) the controller
C. With the volt meter I measured 12V on the G contact as well on te S contact of the glow relay while glowing. ?????

This leads me to the conclusion that the controller is disconnected and a short/bypass is made somewhere (by a PO?) in the harness to solve the problem with the controller.

So here is my question: Where does the controller hook up into the harness? Behind the cluster, in the middle, close to the glow relay? I don't want to tear the harness (behind/under the dash) open on my hunt to find the connector because I think that the PO knew where the connector was and just made a shortcut.

If anybody knows something about where the connector is located it will help me a lot.

Sorry for my lousy Englisch since my first language is Dutch, if you can't make peanutbutter of this please let me know.

Thanks, Rudi

 

[amaurer]

The glow controller sits between the glow relay and the glow plugs. The controller and the plugs are wired in series - all of the current for the plugs flows through the controller. In fact the controller functions as a resistor and reduces the voltage seen at the plugs, thus why 10.5 (or is it 8.5?) volt plugs are used on a 12V truck.

You'll probably go through plugs quickly too if your controller has been bypassed - the voltage will end up being too high.

I'd check the back of the controller for the bypass, or the glow relay near your passenger's feet.

Use the search, lostmarbles and I have had some loooong discussions about the glow relay terminals. After a months of friendly arguing we determined that one of the terminals (S, I think), is a dummy - its connected to G in the harness, but there is no connections to it inside the relay. We also determined that this terminal had a purpose in a 24V truck, but serves only to tie up the extra harness connection on a 12V truck.

EDIT: Here you go: https://forum.ih8mud.com/diesel-tec...ng-bj40-bj42-hj42-glow-relay-manual-glow.html That should keep you busy for days.

 

[bj40green]

Hi AMAURER, Thanks for the quick reply. I read the other tread and learned a lot (or not).
I put in some pictures to show what my problem is. I replaced this one because it was toasted. You can see the break in the spiral in the middle. Which means that it was working somewhere in the past.

The new controller ready for the dash

At his point I checked for juice one either side of the controller and the result is zero. So I started to check for juice on the G and S terminals of the glow relay and the result was with the key in the glow position there is 12 Volt on both terminals
Now going back to my original question; Where does the controller hook in on the harness? I expect that there is a 2 leg connector somewhere behind the dash where the controller wires goes into the harness. I suspect that if I find that connector I will find that the controller side is out and a jumper is placed in. So I'm looking for somebody who has expierence with the harness. If not then I'm going to take the harness apart myself.

I'll keep you posted.

 

[VTCDN]

BJ40
If you remove one wire from the controller and insert a light bulb (same voltage as your glow system 12/24V) in between wire and controller , while glowing the bulb SHOULD light . Remove bulb now and see if the glows get any power while glowing ?
If no power , but the bulb shows continuity when the circuit is complete , then there is only one way the power is directed in series through the glow controller .

SO If that is the case , how was it glowing before with a broke wire or Im not reading the original post correctly..

Next take that old controller and install a smaller gauge / size of stainless wire and see if it glows . There was a post on here of A updated Glow plug that used less amps (draw) for the same glowing tip on the glow plug tip. This glow controller is wired so that if 4 glows all use X amps , then XXXX = enough current to make the controller coil to glow , and less then the coil will get hot , but not enough to glow itself.

HTH's

I got all screwie just typing

VT

 

[fjbj40]

For the 24 volt system you will NOT see the coil wire glow red if you are only holding it for 5-8 seconds. It takes about 15-20 seconds for the coil to glow red, I would suspect this is the case for the 12 volt system also.

I just looked in my B manual and it takes about 20 seconds, at 0 degree cel. for the 12 volt to glow.
From the glow plug relay the wire goes directly to the glow controller then to the glow plugs itself.
If you have 1 or more bad glow plugs I "believe" it takes longer for the glow controller to glow, as this is the way mine behaved with 3 bad glow plugs...no glow at all on the controller.

Try glowing with the ignition switch or the glow switch for longer than 15 seconds. Also your warm ambient air temperature would explain why you have no problem starting, both my diesels will start no problem without glowing if the temp is 5 c and warmer.

If that doesn't help report back, I can go through the manual trouble shooting with you.

HTH's
Daryl

 

[lostmarbles]

...Glow for 5 to 8 seconds and start. The controller does not lit up but the engine starts up fine. ...

Hi Rudi

OK. And I assume from this that you know your plugs (or maybe just some of them) are glowing because you've found it won't start at all without turning your key to "glow".

There is no voltage on (both sides of) the controller ...

OK...So your testing with a voltmeter between each terminal and the body of your cruiser when your key is turned backwards into the glow positionj and you get nothing ... Interesting!

... With the volt meter I measured 12V on the G contact as well on te S contact of the glow relay while glowing. ?????......leads me to the conclusion that the controller is disconnected and a short/bypass is made somewhere (by a PO?) in the harness to solve the problem with the controller. ...

Sounds a reasonable conclusion to me Rudi.

Finding the same voltage at both G and S tends to support this conclusion ....But if that relay was in use ... I'd expect you to measure less than 12V because the plugs draw high amps and I would expect you to see voltage drop occuring through your loom wiring . So I tend to think your PO has bypassed your OEM glow relay in addition to bypassing your controller (but has simply left your OEM relay connected to its upstream supply).

(Of course an alternative explanation is that one/some of your plugs are blown. ... but I'll ignore this possibility)

So based on this, I'd trace back the big supply-wire that leads to your glowplug busbar and see if you can find a new relay that the PO has installed.

And the most important question right now IMO is "What voltage plugs are you now running?" For a 12V cruiser with no glow controller in use they should be 10.5V! And if they are ... You're glow controller will NEVER glow properly with those plugs.

When a glow controller is in use in a 12V truck, the plugs should be 8.5V (which is why I have a measurement of around that figure at my S terminal).

... .... After a months of friendly arguing we determined that one of the terminals (S, I think), is a dummy .....

Yeah. That was a lot of fun and we learnt a lot in that thread Drew I'm very indebted to you!

....Now going back to my original question; Where does the controller hook in on the harness?...

I think you have no choice but to trace the fat wire back from your busbar (as I've said already).

.. So I'm looking for somebody who has expierence with the harness. If not then I'm going to take the harness apart myself. .

Hell no! I wouldn't take the harness apart! It is just a matter of finding where the PO has done his dirty deed. That's all. It should be obvious how to get your cruiser back to "OEM wiring" once you've found that.

For the 24 volt system you will NOT see the coil wire glow red if you are only holding it for 5-8 seconds. It takes about 15-20 seconds for the coil to glow red, I would suspect this is the case for the 12 volt system also.

Quite correct Daryl. I don't see mine start glowing (in daylight) till 15 seconds have elapsed..

...If you have 1 or more bad glow plugs I "believe" it takes longer for the glow controller to glow, as this is the way mine behaved with 3 bad glow plugs...no glow at all on the controller. ...

I believe even just 1 bad plug = no glow



PS. Pics are always welcome ... So I'll through in a few of my own:

 

[VTCDN]

Dang ,lostmarbles , Thats not your Cigar Lighter

Pretty basic system. Do you have a line on the replacement coil (by itself ) ?

I just did a rebuild on my coils for the blower fan stepping speed pack ..
Since the greenback has wavered , I have seen almost a 50% increase in yota pricing from last year.

 

[lostmarbles]

... Do you have a line on the replacement coil (by itself ) ?.

No. Unfortunately I don't.

I believe the controllers are unobtanium but Chris/HenryJames supplied some good info here in this quote (that I've just extracted from an old thread)...

....... The wire alone can be swapped out - its called "resistance wire". There are different thicknesses with different ratings. The wire on my controller is 0.4mm thick - the wires in controllers that employ the 30~40 second glow is noticeably thinner than the one designed to glow in 12~15 seconds...

BTW ... In case you haven't already guessed .... Chris's truck is an HJ47 (12Volt ex Australia)

I've never seen any more info appear on MUD (to do with the controller wire) than what Chris posted above.

 

[VTCDN]

I take it as stainless Resistance wire.
Very similar to my resistor block repair.

Thanks

VT

 

[bj40green]

Ok, I'm back again. Thanks to everybody for their input. Here I go with some additional info about my situation. This will be a long story.
I live in Costa Rica on the pacific side where the temperature is between 70 and 95 F. On a "cold" day (70F) I have to glow only 6 seconds, turn the key to start and....Vroooom it's running.
So far so good. If I skip the glowing and directly start the time is..... here it comes: 6 seconds. It doesn't matter which way you start but the glow situation is much better for the battery.
OK so what am I nagging about? I know that something is wrong, you can call it a gut feeling but I know it. I looked up al the diagrams and schematics and the FSM's and so on and made myself the following three pictures to make clear how the current flows (and where not).
#1 key in "off" position. This needs no explanation.


#2 key in "glow" position. In this situation you will find 12 Volt on top of the controller and a lower voltage on the bottom side (= top side of the glow plugs). That same voltage will also be on the S terminal but that circuit is open so that goes nowhere.
In short you'll meassure 12Volt on the G terminal and +/-8 Volt on the S terminal when the key is in "glow" position.
Remeber that the controller has 2 functions. First to let you know (visual) when the temp is ok to start and second to protect your plugs from being cooked/toasted/burnt/fried if you pay no attention at the controller. And this is what I'm afraid of when some day my takes the pig for a ride. She knows that she have to glow but can easily keep the key in the glow position for half a minute. Don't ask me how. She did it already one time.


#3 key in the "start"position. Now you will find 12Volt on both the G and S terminal. The Voltage on the G terminal is a "static" voltage. It's there but there goes no current because the circuit is open.


Everybody with me so far? Then back to my problem.
A. In the "glow"position I meassure 12Volt on the G and S terminal. NOT GOOD! must be 12 and 8 Volt.
B. In the "glow"position I meassure 0 (zero/nada/nieñte) Volt on both sides of the controller. NOT GOOD at all.

The controller is on the dash at the left side and the relay is at the bottom right at the firewall. The "cable tree" as we Dutch call the bunch of wires which you call "the harness" is approx. 5 Ft long.
Resumé: If I have no power on either side of the controller and I have the same reading on the G and S terminals in the glow position then there is only one conclusion; The controller is disconnected and there must be a by-pass / short / jump / hot-wire so that the glow plugs get the full 12 Volt and one day I have to pay the price for that. Keep in mind that the controller worked some time in the past. See the picture of the broken spiral I posted before.

Ok it's getting late now so I quit for tonight.

Talk to you guys later.

 

[lostmarbles]

You haven't given the voltage specification of the plugs you're running yet..... unless I missed it.

(I think this information is vitally important to this diagnosis.)

....I have to glow only 6 seconds, turn the key to start and....Vroooom it's running.
...If I skip the glowing and directly start the time is..... here it comes: 6 seconds. ...

This is something I was afraid of hearing! So it is extremely doubtful that you are getting any "glow starting-assistance" at all.

... but the glow situation is much better for the battery. ...

Well it WOULD indeed be easier on your battery if "glowing" resulted in a shorter cranking time. But it doesn't! So how can you say this?

.... I looked up al the diagrams and schematics and the FSM's and so on and made myself the following three pictures to make clear how the current flows (and where not). ..

If you read the thread that Amaurer pointed to you'll see that we found terminal S to be a dummy. It was not actually connected to anything inside the glow relays on our 12V cruisers. So .... Are you sure it is connected in yours? (Ie. We found these diagrams you've posted were incorrect for our cruisers!)

This has given me an idea.... Do you have "EDIC control" or an "injection magnet"?

Drew has EDIC control on his BJ42 and so do I on my BJ40. But your diagram shows an injection magnet.

If you do have the magnet, this could be a sign that other things are different too. (And then perhaps your S terminal isn't just a dummy like ours.)

..
A. In the "glow"position I meassure 12Volt on the G and S terminal. NOT GOOD! must be 12 and 8 Volt

But this would be the result if you had the wrong plugs fitted (ie. higher voltage ones).

And it would also be the result if one or more plugs were blown too!

....B. In the "glow"position I meassure 0 (zero/nada/nieñte) Volt on both sides of the controller. NOT GOOD at all.

Don't you mean "start position" this time?

And whether the glowplugs keep being fed power during cranking is not all that important (because they should already be glowing brightly and they take time to cool down). However, having said this, I seem to remember mine still keep getting fed juice but via the glow controller (and not via the S terminal)



PS. I could glow my 1979 BJ40 continuously for 10 minutes without risking any damage. So I have no idea why your 1978 should be so delicate as to be damaged within 30 seconds.

 

[bj40green]

Problem solved !

Hi there,
First, answers to your questions. No, I don't have EDIC and no, I don't have a injection magnet. I used that schematic because it was the best for my use without to much editing.
I spent a few hours today at the rig and started to figure out why there was no voltage on both sides of the controller. Turned out that the crimp-on connecters were bad. Replaced them and YES there was 12 Volt on each side of the controller in the GLOW position. Still no voltage drop on one side while glowing so I started looking at the glow relay. Having a good look, I found that: A. the top right lip was pried on and B. the wires for S and B were crossed. So the black / yellow was on G and not on S and the black was on S and not on G.
While I had the wires loose I took out the relay and decided to pry it open to see if I had the same fake S terminal as you described in the other tread.

And YES you folks are right. I have the same S terminal going nowhere.

So I closed it up, put it back but now with the wires on their correct terminal and.............

There was light!
I meassured 5 Volt at the start moment climbing to 7 Volt after 9 seconds and full glow. Yahoo................ finally it works as it should. No more risk of frying up my glow plugs.

In retrospect this is what happened in the past. One day the controller fried up. To get the engine running a PO crosswired the G and S terminals, probably not knowing that there was now 12 Volt directly being fed to the glow plugs. So I'm glad that this problem is solved with the help of you guys. Gracias.

I used my 3 pictures in this posting so I'll be back in a few minutes with a new posting with more info.

Rudi

 

[bj40green]

More info and diagrams

To document this new situation I made 2 diagrams with adjustments and extra text. It's close to the one you guys posted in the other thread. Please tell me if you see anything wrong in it.

And for the future I made a kind of a floorplan how and where the wiring is installed.

Again, if you have any comment please let me know. I have size 12 / 13 schoes but my toes are very tiny so don't be afraid to step on them.

Thanks for all the advice and info,

Rudi

 

[VTCDN]

Glad you GOT-IT !!!

& thanks for such detailed diagrams and explanation bj40green..
Basic but complex switching and routing.

VT

 

[lostmarbles]

Well done BJ40Green

Just 2 minor comments.

Standard glowtime for your cruiser is 20 seconds AFAIK .... So methinks something in your setup is non-standard (ie. non-OEM).


And .... AFAIK Toyota never placed fusible links in series there. (Oh ...And the overinjection magnet isn't really present.)

 

[bj40green]

@ lostmarbles

Standard glowtime for your cruiser is 20 seconds AFAIK .... So methinks something in your setup is non-standard (ie. non-OEM).

20 seconds is that wintertime or summertime? Here in Costa Rica 26C/75F is cold, and 36C/98F is hot. Doesn't that influence the glow time?

Being new on this forum and Dutch... does AFAIK means; As Far As I Know?

And .... AFAIK Toyota never placed fusible links in series there. (Oh ...And the overinjection magnet isn't really present.)

You're right. I will correct that in the diagram. You want me to post a new version of the diagram?

Thx, Rudi

 

[bj40green]

part # controller

lostmarbels

.... So methinks something in your setup is non-standard (ie. non-OEM).

The only new part is the controller and is not OEM
The label reads:
28550-87303
BJ40 4cil. 12V '71-'85
The manufacturer is GEN TRADING CO. LTD. JAPAN
Price $22 not bad compared to $57.19 for OEM at toydiy.com but then you get the 28550-46021. Oh well..... it works and maybe I buy a spare one or when somebody comes over from the states they can bring one OEM.

I've Googled for this after market part# but nothing came up. Señor Toyota here is not very helpfull with parts for oldtimers. I think they want you to give up on repairs and sell you a FJCruiser. NEVER!!!!

Time to sleep, but first a..................

Rudi

 

[amaurer]

lostmarbles is guessing that your glow plugs are not the proper voltage.

and I agree this is likely. There is a small amount of temperature variation, but 20seconds is the norm, even when its hot.

 

[bj40green]

glow time

Couldn't sleep.

amaurer

lostmarbles is guessing that your glow plugs are not the proper voltage.

and I agree this is likely. There is a small amount of temperature variation, but 20seconds is the norm, even when its hot.

I found this in the Toyota B &2B Engine Repair Manual No. 98260



I'm going to check this soon.

Thanks for the advice.

Rudi

 

[lostmarbles]

.....20 seconds is that wintertime or summertime? Here in Costa Rica 26C/75F is cold, and 36C/98F is hot. Doesn't that influence the glow time?
Being new on this forum and Dutch... does AFAIK means; As Far As I Know?
Thx, Rudi

Warmer temperatures do indeed mean that you need less glowtime for "easy starting" Rudi. But the glowcontroller still won't generally glow orange until around 15 seconds have elapsed (regardless of how warm the ambient temperature is).

My BJ40 glow controller won't glow at all (not even a dull red) after an 9 second glowtime ... even when the ambient temperature is 40 oC.

But if I turned my engine off ... say half an hour ago (so I know it is warm and should start relatively easily) - I may just give it 8 seconds of glow before cranking it. Those 8 seconds are sufficient to make it fire up easier (ie. with fewer starter-motor-revolutions than if I didn't glow at all) yet they're still insufficient to provide any visible "glow indication" from my controller.

And sorry for using "AFAIK". I can remember those abbreviations annoyed me when I started on MUD too. But they are such a time saver that I find I can't avoid using them now.

The only new part is the controller and is not OEM
The label reads:
28550-87303
BJ40 4cil. 12V '71-'85
The manufacturer is GEN TRADING CO. LTD. JAPAN
Price $22 not bad compared to $57.19 for OEM at toydiy.com but then you get the 28550-46021.
Rudi

Where I am right now, I can't search these part numbers but I might try and look into them later.

I didn't realise anyone could buy new/unused glow controllers for BJ4# or HJ4# cruisers today anywhere! (But I must admit that I haven't tried myself.) From other threads I got the impression they were unobtainium.

Where did you buy 28550-87303?

lostmarbles is guessing that your glow plugs are not the proper voltage.

and I agree this is likely. There is a small amount of temperature variation, but 20seconds is the norm, even when its hot.

Yeah. You're certainly reluctant to say what plugs you're running Rudi. Are they 6V plugs? Are they? Are they? Are they? Are they? Are they? Are they? Are they? Are they? Are they? Are they? Are they? Are they? Are they? Are they? Are they? Are they? Are they? (Lower voltage plugs would shorten the glowtime.)

...I found this in the Toyota B &2B Engine Repair Manual No. 98260
Rudi

Beware! There are quite a few mistakes in that manual.

For instance at the bottom of the page you're showing, the image on the left shows the ammeter reading the current for all four plugs but the figures given on the right are "per plug".



PS. Still awake?











Edit.... Dang. Sounds like you've gone to sleep on me! Never mind what it says on YOUR computer! I can assure you it is really only 9.09pm on Tuesday 18 January 2011!!!! 6V are they?