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33s + 2.5" lift vs. 35s + ?" lift

Discussion in '80-Series Tech' started by TucsonCruiser, Apr 7, 2003.

  1. TucsonCruiser

    TucsonCruiser

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    Got a comparison question... :-/

    Thoughts on 33" tires and the OME 2.5" lift vs. 35" tires and [insert correct size here]" lift? What lift would be required for 35" tires, and what else would be necessary?

    I've got an old 2.5" OME lift, but if I ever add a winch to the ARB bullbar, I'd likely need to upgrade it. I'm currently running 31" tires, but hopefully within the next year or so will upgrade. Initially I was thinking about 33s, but the local folks down here (who could clearly see my drool after staring at their 35" loaded rigs) are encouraging 35s. Haven't had a chance to talk with them about lifts and such yet, so thought I'd throw it out here.

    Thoughts?

    Thanks,

    Simmons
     
  2. Hltoppr

    Hltoppr SILVER Star

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    Simmons, check out Slee's site for the best write up I've seen:
    http://www.sleeoffroad.com/technical/tz_35.htm

    All around, I've been happy with 31" to 33" tires on my last 4 cruisers, but then again, I don't do much rock crawling, mostly expedition type wheeling.

    Look seriously at what you're doing with the rig to make the decision.

    -H-
     
  3. TucsonCruiser

    TucsonCruiser

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    Thanks H---that discussion is a great resource. Maybe I'll just keep drooling over those 35s and ratchet down my dream just a wee bit. ::)

    Limited (but scaled down) question: Anything additional with sway bars and brake lines and such necessary to go from 31s to 33s?
     
  4. cruiserdan

    cruiserdan SupportingVendor Emeritus Supporting Vendor Moderator

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    Simmons,

    I run 305/70 16 tires (33x12.00 16) I have Downey springs, stock shocks, stock sway bars. The only other thing I changed is the rear track bar. I got an adjustable one from Christo. I probably didn't need it as I'm not that tall, but my rear axle was shifted slightly to one side, which offended me.

    Rgards...Dan :beer:
     
  5. Photoman

    Photoman SILVER Star

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    Cdan,
    My rear axle is slightly shifted to one side but my wife says it doesn't matter.
    Bill
     
  6. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    Simmons,
    The link on Christo's site is a good resource and I'm taking the "longer shock and lowered bump stops" approach myself. Maybe in 6 or 8 months mine will be ready for 35's.  

    To run 33" tyres you don't need to do anything, even with stock springs. I believe you can run 35" tyres just by lowering the bump stops appropriately.  (Tyler ???)

    To run OME L-shocks you need to do some things regardless of tyre size.
    1. Lower the F&R sway bars.
    2. Lengthen diff breathers.
    3. Lengthen F&R brake lines.
    4. Lower bump stops.  Amount of lowering depends on tyre size; 2" with 35's, maybe 1" with 33's.  93-94 is the only years that came with Front bump stops on the frame. You will need to acquire some from a 93/94 or adapt rears. Rears are shorter than fronts so more adjusting. 93/94 had different length for L&R front bump stops. This discussion is limited to the FRAME mounted bump stops, not the internal bumpers in the front springs.

    Now that you have the longer shocks, your axles are capable of more droop.  In order to get more compression you have to get the frame further from the axle. Most do this with OME 2-1/2" or the OME J-springs (3-1/2" IIRC)  Another approach is the 1" Mr Gasket spring spacers or OME packers.

    Once you've done all of this you likely have some vibration issues; some do, some don't. If you do, then you're looking at double cardan's or CV's ($$$)  You've also messed up the caster so you will need to get that closer to spec with the caster correction bushings. If you go over 2-1/2" (after weight of winch, bumpers, etc.) the bushings may not get you back to spec.  You've also got the truck body shifted to the right. As C-Dan said, adjustable track bars can fix that if it matters to you. There are several other suspension items that you should consider but they are not required to get you to this point.

    Now you have it lifted to give more compression and longer shocks and dangly bits to give more droop. The 35's will get your axles up another 1" off the ground (vs 33's) and give you a lot bigger tyre to turn. As the discussion in another thread covered, you'll be begging for taller gears; 4.56's or 4.88's. Oh, and you'll need to find some place to but the 35" tyre 'cause it won't fit in the factory spare location now.

    It's not as simple as we would like but the sawzall hasn't come out and you're now running 35's, your suspension has more travel up and more travel down, your performance is back to stock or better, your MPG is approaching single digit,  and you're crawling over BIG rocks.

    HTH,
    -B-
     
  7. T Y L E R

    T Y L E R

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    Beo , once again a nice , compact overview :bow:

    Simmons , listen to Beo , and your friends there . Go for the 35's (biased) .

    Personally , I shamelessly run a 35" poser 80 . OME light/med - period . So if I ever blast over the curb at my local Starbucks™ at anything more than 20 MPH , I'll prpbably shred my flares .

    Tyler ( with form that don't need no stinkin function ! ) :D :D :stupid:
     
  8. landtank

    landtank SILVER Star

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    I've been running 35s for about 2 years now. I had slight rubbing with the light spring rate on the front when the truck landed from being air born. I now have the heavy front and rear and haven't had any trouble at all. Personally I've read Christos notes and am sure if you want complete no rubbing at all in any condition under any circumstances that is what you need to do. However I don't have a bullbar yet and obviously no winch either or second battery. So my nose is not so heavy. Admittedly I'm not wheeling as much as others but have yet to have any problems. I'm taking the wait til need approach with my suspension. My next step will be the 1.5" spacers and longer shocks with the Bar and winch. I fully expect to eventually have to do everything but for now I don't have to. Depending on your wheeling style 35s and the standard lift could work just fine as it has for me.

    Rick
     
  9. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    Thanks Tyler...

    I forgot to mention one other important detail.

    When all the above is done and you're on your new 35's, you will barely squeeze that puppy (unloaded) into the garage. NO WAY with a safari style rack. Real close with the factory rack. You'll also hear a whining noise from the PS and maybe one or two from the 2nd row depending on how many kids you've got.  Ear plugs help.  :D

    -B-
     
  10. Hltoppr

    Hltoppr SILVER Star

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    And the gearing may just drive you nuts.  4.10s with 35s will cause issues  :( , including poor gas mileage....I would PREFER (Note Dan's language) to do 35s correctly, or not at all.

    -H-
     
  11. TucsonCruiser

    TucsonCruiser

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    Thanks all---great info, and just what I expected from a group of folks whom, given the option, I'd rather spend time with than with the finest folks in the world! :eek:

    As to getting into the garage, that's out the window once I get any tire that's bigger than the stock size I have now. There's only about 1/2" clearance with those tires. I've given myself over to the fact that the Cruiser will be ungaraged before too long. My Accord will be happy again, though.

    Simmons
     
  12. Curran

    Curran SILVER Star

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    Thanks B. I learned something new today.
    I've been running the 850J/863 combo with long travel shocks in front for a while and didn't know about 1 and 4 above. Perhaps I'm violating the laws of physics, but I’ve tucked the front tires deep up under the fenders without (to the best of my knowledge) reaching the limit on the upward travel of my L shocks. I guess more testing is in order.
    When I was installing the lift, I had the vehicle raised in the air (both axles at full drop) and the need for extended brake lines and dif breathers became obvious, but the front drive shaft didn't contact the front sway bar, so the need for the front sway bar drop perplexes me.
    Here are some observations that I hope might help someone:
    (for the record I'm running 285 MTRs)
    I started out with just the 850J/863 lift without the castor correction, and had a small driveline vibration between 7 and 15 MPH. I originally thought it was the relatively knobby tires. I also thought that the truck was a bit unnerving around corners especially downhill at highway speeds. Then, a week ago my March Madness shipment arrived from Christo. First I added the sliders. No change to ride characteristics. Then I added I added the rear bumper and tire carrier, and the vibration increased. Thus I deduced the vibration was related to the driveline and not the tires (which, btw, I happen to really like!)
    Next I added the front bumper and winch combo (Warn 12K). Presto, all vibrations are gone! (For those of you adding it up, yes, that was my whole bonus plus some!) The truck handles a ton better. Besides for the disappearance of the vibration, the biggest things I've noticed since the install: The truck tracks where I point it and not along wear paths in the asphalt or dirt. The suspension is in its proper weight zone. The truck was really a pogo stick before the armor was added. Now I don’t flinch at potholes, and my knuckles don’t turn white when I see bad grooves in the road.
    I tried to press in the castor correction bearings when I did the lift, but the press I was using lacked the cajones to get the job done. Since I like the way the truck is riding now, I think I'm going to pass on the correction kit.
    Hope this long post helps.
    Curran
     
  13. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    Curran,

    You probably won't know you've bottomed the shock until you do it at speed or another situation where it bends the shock. On our 80's, the suspension travel is limited by the shocks (basically); compression and droop. With a shock that is 1" longer when compressed, you won't be on the inner bumper and on your '97 Toyota didn't put factory bump stops for the axle. With 35's, the tyre will hit the inner fender before the shock bottoms.

    I can't explain why your propeller shaft doesn't hit the stock front sway bar on full droop. Others, including Christo and George Scolero, have said it does hit.  Maybe you weren't at full droop (i.e. brake lines?)

    -B-
     
  14. sleeoffroad

    sleeoffroad Supporting Vendor

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    Couple of points,

    Lift is not the only thing to consider when running 35's. More important is power. If you do not plan to re-gear, you convert your truck into a slug and it will be slow and underpowered. Also if you run trails, you will loose a lot of crawling capability.

    Every single truck we have done with L shocks will have the front driveshaft hit the swaybar.

    At some point more lift does not help with clearance of the tires. I have 6" on the School Bus, and it will still rub, mostly in the rear on the mudflap and flares. Rear bump stops are lowered 2" and the front none.

    Why? Because it runs 10" wheels with 3 1/4" backspacing. I like the wider stance and it helps when off-road. It is important to note that you can not just go up with the truck, without considering track width. If you go over 4+" then wider does help, but that said, the wider wheels and more offset does not help on-road manners. It tends to catch ruts more.

    Also, it is very important to compare apples with apples when talking about wheeling. When I say it rubs, that is on extreme trails, where the suspension is completely twisted up. Most people might never get to that point when they wheel. Not trying to say we only wheel extreme trails, but we always examine customers needs and wants before building trucks for them. For some the compromise approach works.
     
  15. landtank

    landtank SILVER Star

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    Just as a side note, I purchsed the front frame bump stops for a FJ62. These bolt right to the frame without modification to the base plate and are taller than the FJ80 rears. However as you mentioned the left side is longer on the 94s so an additional shim must be made to correct this.

    rICK
     
  16. Photoman

    Photoman SILVER Star

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    -B-
    Could you expound a little more on the front bump stops. Georges site talks about him making front frame bump stops for a redundant setup with the internals but he doesn't say or show where he mounted them. Also, since you limited your discussion to the frame mounted bump stops could you also talk more about the internal bumpers. Things like if they are needed if you have frame mounts - if you use them do you still need the frame mounts. I see Christo sells the internal extensions or they could be made if feeling ambitious.
    Bill
     
  17. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    Bill,

    >> but he doesn't say or show where he mounted them. <<

    They mount on the frame at the factory location. All 80s have the holes and captured nuts; only the US 93-94's came with the bump stop installed.  

    >> Things like if they are needed if you have frame mounts <<

    The internal bumpers do not have to be lowered if you use the lowered frame bump stops. For me, this was cheaper than trying to fab something or buying the adjustables from Slee.  Not as elegant as the adjustables, but effective and cheap.

    >> if you use them do you still need the frame mounts. <<

    George's site implies that lowering the internal bumpers may not be enough to ensure the shocks do not bottom out. Since his mods are well thought out and he does his homework (and SHARES it!), I just followed his guidance.

    Since George used mini-truck bump stops and Rick used FJ62 bump stops, I'm guessing just about any Toyota SA application will work. Different trucks will have different length bump stops so determining the size of the spacers needed will take a little work. C-Dan is trying to find us the p/n for the 93-94 80s. His 93 has the front bump stops but the system doesn't show them as being available.  (BTW Dan, that last question mark in the p/n that I sent you was because I can't read that digit. It has a 5-5 number.)
    -B-
     
  18. bjowett

    bjowett Supporting Vendor

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    I am running both stops and will try to find the 93/94 inner part numbers. The inner stop appears to give a smidge more articulation when in use by supplying the compressed side of the axle a better pivot point/leverage in which to press the droop side down.... sort like a playground seesaw. Then again, it could just be me. :G
     
  19. Curran

    Curran SILVER Star

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    I'm going to eat my words on this one.
    I couldn't find a convenient piece of terrain to simulate a full drop on the front axle, so last week, I took the truck over to a local shop and had them put it up on a lift for me… You all were right drop blocks are required with the L-Shocks. I’m still trying to figure out why I didn’t catch this the when I was installing the new springs and shocks. :dunno:
    I just finished installing Slee’s drop blocks (easiest install to date). Now to find some front bump stops…
    CJ
     
  20. Beowulf

    Beowulf

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    CJ

    Front bump stop p/n's from Dan:

    RH side 48304-60080............lists for $27.29
    LH side 48306-60062.............lists for $17.26

    These may be hard to get. They are for the 93 model and will fit all 93-97 80's (maybe 91-92). These need to be extended with spacers depending on how much longer your compressed shocks are compared to the stock shocks. OME are 1" longer when compressed; 2" longer extended.

    If you are running tyres larger than 33" then you will need to add more spacer. The best thing would be to ramp it and see what you need depending on the type and size of your front tyres.

    -B-