PTO winch head yoke observations. (1 Viewer)

[cruiserdan]

The yoke on my Winch head (1988 BJ74) is kinda sloppy. the shear pin is not totally "tight" and there is what seems to me to be quite a bit lateral "slop" in the yoke-to-shaft interface when the shaft is pushed sideways. I have heard that some play is normal but mine may be excessive.

I used the winch for the first "real" time on Sunday to pull some tree stumps and when the load increased I got a repeatitive popping sound form the shaft. I can duplicate the sound by pushing the driveshaft sideways at the winch head and it clunks when it stops moving sideways. The shaft has to be flopping side-to-side under load. This can't be normal, can it?

 

[onlyonedr]

I would buy some thin shim stock and roll it over the shaft and put the yoke back on. Double-check that the u-joints is not stiff/sticking when it rotates.

 

[cruiserdan]

Good Idea on the shim stock, I'll try that. The u-joints are good.

 

[Living in the Past]

In 1979 Toyota redesigned the front pillow block bearing so instead of the shaft going straight into the winch in now came in at a angle. I think this was the way other models continued. That angle is part of the reason it pops good U-joint or not. If your shear pins does not fit tight in the yolk and winch shaft they are either worn or drilled for something stronger than the factory shear pin. If just the yolk is loose you probably find something used. Winch shaft your going to need to rebuild the winch with a good shaft or find something larger to use that will still shear first. When I snap a shear pin usually both pieces will be in the yolk and use the new shear pin to drive the broken one out of the winch shaft. It's a 68 so not dealing with the angle of the shaft to winch.

Curious is the PTO single or two direction beside neutral?

 

[cruiserdan]

The PTO lever is in or out with a two buttons on the knob that have to be depressed at the same time to shift it.

The winch head was rebuilt by the previous owner shortly before I aquired the vehicle. He was not doing it in an effort to ready the vehicle for sale so it was not a throw-togther job. He ended up selling it because of family expansion, otherwise he would still have it. The worm shaft turns smoothly and has no lateral play. The end of the shaft appears to be in good condition but I have not removed the yoke to examine that section closely. The ujoints are good. The shear pin is "snug" in the yoke but somewhat loose in the worm shaft. The yoke can be "rocked" side to side on the shaft roughly 1/4 inch.

I imagine either the yoke bore has been "hogged out" or the worm shaft has been worn undersize. There is little evidence of the winch being used a lot. It is a JDM truck with under 90,000 miles on it and the over-all condition is excellent.

 

[Living in the Past]

Dan I see that loose fit in the worm gear shaft being a problem. Prior to 79 the shaft was almost a straight shot to the worm gear shaft. The U-joint really didn't do a lot. Going in a angle is a completely different story. If the diff and transfer case were a straight shot and the bolts were loose between the diff flange/driveline under constant pressure you wouldn't notice much if anything. But if the diff and T case were parallel but offset under low RPM the gap where the bolts were loose would be banging around even with good U-joints. The loose fit in the worm gear shaft is doing the same thing. How tight does the collar slip over the shaft? If that is loose shimming would help but you still dealing with the loose shear pin. I just lately picked up the PTO and driveshaft out of post 82 4X series to us in my 79. I been curious how the angle was going to effect it. Like the old style better but figure this was done to move the PTO drivelines as close to the frame rail as possible.

 

[67azcruizr]

I'm guessing that a shear pin was compromised/sheared at one point possibly separating the shaft from the yoke leaving possible the first pillow block and or the short section of driveshaft damaged.

any vibration detected, or change in action/sound with RPM adjustment? If your really concerned and think you will be using the PTO head often, I would pull the shaft(worm drive) and spin it on a lathe to correct/true it to an SAE measurement than do the same with the yoke to set up with a sleeve and machine both to fit a new SAE pin. If your pillow block and spider joints check out and none of the drive shafts are bent there should not be further issues

 

[cruiserdan]

There is no vibration with a light load on the winch. The "popping" comes in when the load goes up. I will inspect the shaft and pillow block. I am also going to see if I can "sleeve" the yoke somehow to eliminate the slop. I think If I can acomplish that I'll be a lot better off. I have just the tree stump to test it on.....

 

[Living in the Past]

Have you checked to see if the collar is still available? With the collar off I would inspect the shaft to see how play the shear pin has. Finding a mild steel bolt and drilling the collar to match might be the simplest solution. Just want to be sure it's still the weakest link or just hire someone to remove stumps.

The PTO and shafts I picked up were off a 84 HJ47RV. The collar was missing past U-joint. It was hit in the right front corner so hard it cracked the main winch gear housing both front and back ears. I figure the side movement snap the collar or the gorilla who removed it broke it. By looking at the winch it appears to have been drilled out for a larger pin. Nothing left in the hole to inspect and since I wasn't allowed to pull the PTO and on the collar all I got was the U-joint and splined end so nothing I could inspect to see if looked like it was drilled out. After seeing your issue I going to be sure and put my best winch and collar setup on the 79. I am kind of disappointed your having this problem, the Cruiser isn't even thirty years old yet.

 

[cruiserdan]

The tree stump is just a winch test to see how well it works before I actually need it....

 

[Living in the Past]

The tree stump is just a winch test to see how well it works before I actually need it....

Where is your sense of adventure? I suppose you plan on carrying extra shear pins as well.

 

[peteinjp]

All 3 of my PTOs from late-model 40 series trucks are loose at the yoke. However I've never noticed any noise from the one that I use. I was planning on having the yoke sleeved and I put on another one and it fit well. Shim stock would work but it would be a pain if you did I had to to get the holes to line up if you didn't shear a pen.

I also thought of The possibility that there is supposed to be Play there so the pin could shear more easily. I can see that if it was close to a press fit that any corrosion would keep The pin from shearing.

I wonder if you could take a new U joint with splines and simply bore out slightly oversized to the worm gear shaft. That would get a longer contact area and prevent wear from happening quickly.

Pete

 

[shelfboy1]

dont know if you want it to tight ,ever try to replace a pin on your back in a mud hole in the winter ? its nice to have a little play i doubt the popping is from the slop since all mine have been sloppy for the last 40 years or so and never have popped .may not be right but i cant see where a sloppy yoke would make it pop .let us know if you figure out what the sound is

 

[peteinjp]

I've never noticed any popping on mine either. I did have a bad U-joint with a little slop in it at the transfer case end and it did pop and rattle but only when I was lugging.

I found one PTO where the previous owner had actually welded the yoke to the warm shaft. That was sure solve your problem! Doh! Needless to say that unit was pretty beat up.

 

[Living in the Past]

dont know if you want it to tight ,ever try to replace a pin on your back in a mud hole in the winter ? its nice to have a little play i doubt the popping is from the slop since all mine have been sloppy for the last 40 years or so and never have popped .may not be right but i cant see where a sloppy yoke would make it pop .let us know if you figure out what the sound is

Never had a problem removing the old pin. The new pin is tampered used that drive the old pin out. Getting the cotter pins in with my fat fingers was another matter. Just curious were any of yours from a 79 or newer? To my knowledge by 79 the PTO winch was no longer offered in the US market. These require a lot more movement in the U-joints because of the angle.

Here is a pictured posted by Tom (Lostmarbles) which shows the angle. I thought I took some pictures of the setup I have mocked up on a 82 frame.

 

[shelfboy1]

driving the old pin out is easy when they are lined up .i have always had to put the winch in neutral and turn the shaft to line up the holes .not easy when its under water or sunk in the mud . a tight fit would make that harder maybey even require a pipe wrench not easy when the winch is under water or mud .

 

[Living in the Past]

When I say a tight fit I don't mean a press on fit. I can spin the shaft without any problem just not a sloppy fit. You put the winch in neutral or the PTO? I assume you mean PTO in neutral and using the pipe wrench on yolk? Since it will drive out either way been lucky don't ever remember having to crawl underneath to drive out the broken pin. Does make me think throwing in long punch in with the tools I carry would make this easier for my old hands to do. Being in the Southwest deep water and mud are rare to find. Boulders and snow are more common.

My real interest in this thread is how much the 79+ PTO drivelines play into this problem. Since the US market didn't get the PTO winch this late we have to go off information from non US import vehicles came in later, first hand information from people in other markets or those like me who plan on putting one of these setups on my 79 FJ40.

 

[cruiserdan]

I'll have to study my PTO shaft path. I don't think I saw angles that severe but I could be mistaken. I have obtained a bronze bushing that is 7/8 inch ID and 1 inch OD. Easy to work if I have to fit it and should be "forgiving" as far as binding. My plan is to use it as a sleeve between the worm shaft and the yoke. I will probably not get to it for a couple weeks however.

 

[Living in the Past]

Dan you very well be right on the angle only seen the late 40 series. Easiest way is simply look at the hole in the front frame member. Post 78 on the 4X series those holes are offset. May not be the case with 6X series or 7X series.

My biggest concern with adding bushing is you break a shear pin and had bushing floating between the worm shaft and yolk it going to make it difficult to line the three up to remove the old pin and install a new one.

 

[cruiserdan]

Update of sorts.

The bronze bushing idea did not get out of the starting blocks. I ended up shimming with an automotive-grade Coors beer can.....
There was s raw material challenge because all my used cans had been crushed. Halfway through I had to open a new one and empty it to get necessary raw material.

A strip rolled into exactly two layers was enough to snug it up. A bit tricky to line up the holes blind but once close a small pick poked through the aluminum like butta...

The shear pin is looser than I like (4mm) and I am on the hunt for a 3/16 bolt with a ~1.5 inch shoulder and give that a try.

By the way the drive shaft comes at the winch at an angle. Maybe 15 degrees?