1HD-T idle shake (1 Viewer)

[Martin White]

Truck has gone to Ateb today for a long list of things I've wanted done for some time. I mentioned this idle shake before but it's come back. Sometimes, not always, after a run on the highway, when I come back to stop and go traffic, the idle will drop and the truck shakes violently but doesn't stall.

It will smooth out if I idle it up a bit. The truck has recently serviced injectors and no other known issues. I talked to Ken at Ateb today about this and he mentioned that the injectors on the 1HDT are quite hard to set up properly and that it may have something to do with the fuel pump. It doesn't seem to matter if the a/c is running or not. Anyone have any thoughts on this or a similar issue? When I say rough, I mean the whole truck is literally shaking. As far as I know there is nothing else wrong with the truck. It has been very well maintained.

 

[jcolvin]

Sounds like your acsd (auto cold start device) to me. This controls the idle (and also advances timing a bit when cold). If it is acting up (which is is VERY prone to do) then your idle may be too low when the truck is hot. When it is shaking, what is the idle at? it can be adjusted by hand.

I'd love to get rid of mine completely and just use the hand throttle for cold starts. it is supposed to be possible to replace it with a blanking plate (like on the 1HZ fuel pump with no acsd) but I don't know the part number.

 

[nickw]

What rpm does it shake at?

Mine usually idles between 600-950 when warm.
When cold around 1100.
Even when I am at 600pm it is smooth.

Sometimes when idleing I can feel the engine surging a bit. Maybe 25-50rpm or so.
Barely moves the tach, but I can see/hear it. If I tap the throttle it stops.

Cheers,
Nick

 

[Martin White]

The tach is showing around 450 RPM or so when it starts shaking. You're right, I can use the hand throttle, it's just annoying on something you have 30K + into to have to do that. The idle has been adjusted up once, so the ACSD theory makes sense. Can you tell me more about this device? What's involved in repairing / replacing it? Cost? Thanks guys, big help, this has been a big source of irritation. I'll call Ateb about this later. First I've heard of it. Ken at Ateb is a good guy but he's not quite as technical as some of the mechanics who work on the truck, and English is not his first language, so that may explain some of the missing info.

 

[roscoFJ73]

The tach is showing around 450 RPM or so when it starts shaking. You're right, I can use the hand throttle, it's just annoying on something you have 30K + into to have to do that. The idle has been adjusted up once, so the ACSD theory makes sense. Can you tell me more about this device? What's involved in repairing / replacing it? Cost? Thanks guys, big help, this has been a big source of irritation. I'll call Ateb about this later. First I've heard of it. Ken at Ateb is a good guy but he's not quite as technical as some of the mechanics who work on the truck, and English is not his first language, so that may explain some of the missing info.

Its on the fuel pump and is activated by a device called the Thermowax.
It has 2 hoses from the coolant system which melts the wax and releases it to go back to it warm setting.
The elbow lever which advances the pump timing wears out ,gets a flat spot and makes a rattle.
The part inside can break off and cause mass destruction if left too long
Every injection shop in oz I have spoken to recommend throwing it away and fitting the blanking plate.
Its also a smog device to stop the engine making fuel rich pollutants when cold.

I think if you stood and watched it while it warmed up you should see something move. If not maybe the thermowax needs some adjustment or replacing.

 

[bigbrowndog]

it sounds like the first stage setting on the injectors is not set to the correct measurement and the spray pattern and volume is incorrect at that RPM.When the injector is reconditioned it must be measured and shims fitted to bring it back to factory tolerance. The shop must have the correct machines for this and preferably have done the special Denco course for these two stage injectors.There was a previous injector thread with drawings of the injector from Denco Aust. GB had friends with a shop that understood the correct way to set them up in your area.

 

[Greg_B]

it sounds like the first stage setting on the injectors is not set to the correct measurement and the spray pattern and volume is incorrect at that RPM.When the injector is reconditioned it must be measured and shims fitted to bring it back to factory tolerance. The shop must have the correct machines for this and preferably have done the special Denco course for these two stage injectors.There was a previous injector thread with drawings of the injector from Denco Aust. GB had friends with a shop that understood the correct way to set them up in your area.

If ATEB looked after your injectors they would have used Allied Holmes. Allied is the only gig in town familure with these two stage injectors afaik. That does not mean you might not have a bad injector...just that someone familure with these two stage injectors would have done it. bbd, the person who does the two stage injectors worked at an injection shop in Oz working on Toyota stuff. He mentioned the elbow lever rosco talked about.

The plate mod sounds interesting. I'll have to pay more attention to the next few that come through and see what is involved.

hth's

gb

 

[Martin White]

Yep, the injectors were done, very recently, at Allied. I've never heard of a problem with stuff coming out of there. The info. supplied above is great. I'm gonna' email it to the guys at Ateb to have a look at. Thanks again.

 

[Martin White]

Rosco FJ73, I'm in very unfamiliar territory here; I'm not certain Ateb knows about this either though I don't want to speak for them. Is there a link to this blanking plate mod? Is it going to cause any problems fitting one? I'd love to cure this problem. If I'm having an issue with it now, does that mean I'm close to the "mass destruction" moment?

I was also wondering, and excuse my ignorance here, would this sort of problem have any impact on fuel consumption?

 

[jcolvin]

The tach is showing around 450 RPM or so when it starts shaking. You're right, I can use the hand throttle, it's just annoying on something you have 30K + into to have to do that. The idle has been adjusted up once, so the ACSD theory makes sense. Can you tell me more about this device? What's involved in repairing / replacing it? Cost? Thanks guys, big help, this has been a big source of irritation. I'll call Ateb about this later. First I've heard of it. Ken at Ateb is a good guy but he's not quite as technical as some of the mechanics who work on the truck, and English is not his first language, so that may explain some of the missing info.

450 at idle? That's definitely way too low. When you put it into drive the TC drag will cause the revs to drop enough for it to start missing. My money is on the ACSD for sure.

I talked to Ken at ATEB today (my rig is getting its BEB done), he doesn't seem to know about the ACSD. ATEB seem pretty good but I think they are still on a learning curve with the 1HD-T (like most of us here in N.A. rather than in Oz).


I had the *exact* same symptom on my auto. The trouble is, the problem tends to be intermittent (the ACSD seems to sometimes stick, sometimes not), so when it intermittently works properly, the idle will be a bit high if you've jumped it up a bit for when it's stuck (if you see what I mean).

The simplest fix is to adjust the throttle stop set screw to give you a minimum idle of 700 rpm or so. The only problem with this is that the ACSD also adjusts timing advance, so if its malfunctioning your timing may get advanced a bit. I don't *think* this should be a problem but I'm not a diesel mechanic.

 

[jcolvin]

Its on the fuel pump and is activated by a device called the Thermowax.
It has 2 hoses from the coolant system which melts the wax and releases it to go back to it warm setting.
The elbow lever which advances the pump timing wears out ,gets a flat spot and makes a rattle.
The part inside can break off and cause mass destruction if left too long
Every injection shop in oz I have spoken to recommend throwing it away and fitting the blanking plate.
Its also a smog device to stop the engine making fuel rich pollutants when cold.

I think if you stood and watched it while it warmed up you should see something move. If not maybe the thermowax needs some adjustment or replacing.

ROSCO: you wouldn't be able to get the part number for that blanking plate from one of your local diesel shops would you? Here in Canada our shops are not familiar with this engine: there's one place in Saskatchewan that has all the parts for the 1HZ but he needs a part number for this piece.

cheers!!!

 

[roscoFJ73]

ROSCO: you wouldn't be able to get the part number for that blanking plate from one of your local diesel shops would you? Here in Canada our shops are not familiar with this engine: there's one place in Saskatchewan that has all the parts for the 1HZ but he needs a part number for this piece.

cheers!!!

Ill have a look around tommorrow for the part .I may even be able to source the part from my injection shop. Ill also double check about the affects of removing it althought the 2 techs that told me are very experienced

This is a pic of the side of my 1HZ pump after it was rebuilt. You can see the flat part blanked out in the middle

 

[roscoFJ73]

This an exploded view with the thermowax in the lower RH corner part# 22790.
(part number is obsolete)

 

[roscoFJ73]

Rosco FJ73, I'm in very unfamiliar territory here; I'm not certain Ateb knows about this either though I don't want to speak for them. Is there a link to this blanking plate mod? Is it going to cause any problems fitting one? I'd love to cure this problem. If I'm having an issue with it now, does that mean I'm close to the "mass destruction" moment?

I was also wondering, and excuse my ignorance here, would this sort of problem have any impact on fuel consumption?

It takes a long long time to break off
Its only in use when cold so when warmed up it does nothing

Think of it as a bit like the vacuum advance in a distributor that rotates to advance the timing on a petrol engine.

In the fuel pump it rotates the timing piston which alters the time a spray of fuel enters the combustion chamber in relation to the position of the piston.

I guess in theory they could have fitted a dash mounted cable that you pulled out on cold mornings

Oh I think the bit that breaks off is $180 AUD and someone told me it was mysteriosly in the North American EPC. Maybe its an error

 

[Greg_B]

I talked to Ken at ATEB today (my rig is getting its BEB done), he doesn't seem to know about the ACSD. ATEB seem pretty good but I think they are still on a learning curve with the 1HD-T (like most of us here in N.A. rather than in Oz).

Have Ken talk to the folks at Allied Holmes. I would not be suprised if they could source it.

hth's

gb

 

[Martin White]

Update: I first called Ken. He's not familiar with the ACSD and kept talking about problems with the injectors. Since my symptoms exactly match the ACSD problem, I'm reasonably sure now that it's the issue. So I called Allied Holmes directly.

They told me they are familiar with the ACSD but that they will NOT install a blanking plate because "it's there for a reason" and that they are certified DENSO rebuilders and have to rebuild it as per the factory specs. I'm wondering about options here. Apparently to pull the pump and test it, and to work on the ACSD by itself, will get me a long way towards a total pump rebuild.

Ken was suggesting I take the truck directly to Allied and have them deal with it after this latest service. He's reluctant to pull the pump based on what I've told him, and I can see why as I'm not a mechanic and certainly far from a diesel specialist. He did say that quite a few of the trucks they look after have this rough idle problem. I printed most of this thread and will fax it to him so he can have a look.

Is there a source somewhere of pumps that have this mod already done? What would one cost? Is it going to effect how the engine runs when it's cold? As I'm in Canada, I can see how the Aussies would ditch this device. I'm looking at somewhere between 800-1500 CDN for a pump rebuild at Allied, depending on the condition of the pump and what they find. I don't want to bypass Ken but I want to SOLVE this problem. Money is of course somewhat of an issue but more importantly I want the truck to run properly and be reliable. Opinions?

 

[Martin White]

A further update to my previous post: Allied advised me that there can be a long wait for some of the parts for this pump from Japan, up to 3 weeks, not a huge problem as I have access to a second vehicle. Is there anyone on this forum who has an HDJ81 in Canada who has solved this issue or had the injection pump rebuilt and been advised the ACSD was done as well, or conversely, has anyone tried to fit a blanking plate and had it work, preferably through a cold winter? I will likely be running this truck in cold conditions at least part of the year.

 

[jcolvin]

Ill have a look around tommorrow for the part .I may even be able to source the part from my injection shop. Ill also double check about the affects of removing it althought the 2 techs that told me are very experienced

This is a pic of the side of my 1HZ pump after it was rebuilt. You can see the flat part blanked out in the middle

Hmmm...is the blanking plate a stock toyota part or an ozzie work-around? If it's a stock part then we should be able to get it (but need a part number...need the part number for the blanking plate, not the thermowax).

If its a home-grown ozzie work-around, perhaps we can get a few shipped here from Oz. If you could look into this for us you'd make some cannucks here very happy

 

[jcolvin]

Update: I first called Ken. He's not familiar with the ACSD and kept talking about problems with the injectors. Since my symptoms exactly match the ACSD problem, I'm reasonably sure now that it's the issue. So I called Allied Holmes directly.

They told me they are familiar with the ACSD but that they will NOT install a blanking plate because "it's there for a reason" and that they are certified DENSO rebuilders and have to rebuild it as per the factory specs. I'm wondering about options here. Apparently to pull the pump and test it, and to work on the ACSD by itself, will get me a long way towards a total pump rebuild.

Ken was suggesting I take the truck directly to Allied and have them deal with it after this latest service. He's reluctant to pull the pump based on what I've told him, and I can see why as I'm not a mechanic and certainly far from a diesel specialist. He did say that quite a few of the trucks they look after have this rough idle problem. I printed most of this thread and will fax it to him so he can have a look.

Is there a source somewhere of pumps that have this mod already done? What would one cost? Is it going to effect how the engine runs when it's cold? As I'm in Canada, I can see how the Aussies would ditch this device. I'm looking at somewhere between 800-1500 CDN for a pump rebuild at Allied, depending on the condition of the pump and what they find. I don't want to bypass Ken but I want to SOLVE this problem. Money is of course somewhat of an issue but more importantly I want the truck to run properly and be reliable. Opinions?

The only reason it is there is as a smog control device, and there's no reason why a bit of hand-throttle can't acomplish the same thing. You don't need a pump rebuild, you need what is probably a $10 part (a blanking plate).

I suggest for now you just increase the idle manually using the throttle stop set-screw while we try and get ahold of this blanking plate for a permanent fix. You could also replace the thermowax, which is a $300 part, but then there's still the eventual risk of the lever breaking off inside the fuelpump. Personally I want to get rid of the thermowax once and for all and put that blanking plate in.

I don't believe that right now we are at risk of the lever breaking off...I hear that this happens when the lever gets loose and rattles. My lever is not loose and rattling...the issue seems to be the thermowax plunger sticking.

 

[roscoFJ73]

Hmmm...is the blanking plate a stock toyota part or an ozzie work-around? If it's a stock part then we should be able to get it (but need a part number...need the part number for the blanking plate, not the thermowax).

If its a home-grown ozzie work-around, perhaps we can get a few shipped here from Oz. If you could look into this for us you'd make some cannucks here very happy

Its a stock part. For some reason the 1HZ doesnt need it.Once the 1HZ starts it hits full idle speed almost immediately.
Maybe its the IDI or not having a turbo.

The rattle starts off as intermittant and after 100000klms runs the risk of going terminal.
I wouldnt worry about it too much on low klm JDM vehicles.

When installing the thermowax it says to turn the cold start lever counter clockwise 20 degrees
Put a metal plate with a thickness of 3.5-7.5mm between the lever and thermowax plunger.
Im thinking if the clearance is out then the thermowax will not push on the lever.
It maybe a cheap fix