WP and crank pulley alignment probs with pics

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Here is a continuation of a problem I posted last week, this time with pics! It occurred to me that adding a 2-row crank pulley won't immediately solve my problem:

My "problem" as stated before was that I only had a 1-row crank pulley, and want to add PS. The pulley on the PS pump I have (Not shown, 3FE pump, mounted to the passenger-side head) interferes with the fan. From the pics, you can see that my fan is positioned FAR away from the radiator, seems to me it should be way closer, at least inside the radiator shroud.

The alt pulley currently rides on the FORWARD WP pulley, and seems to line up well with the single crank pulley.

So if I were to swap out the crank pulley with a 2-row pulley/balancer, the additional pulley MIGHT line up with the PS pulley (good), except that the fan is in the way.

If I were to swap out the PS pulley with one that has less "dish" and misses the fan, then it won't line up with the new crank pulley, and then WTF do I do with the alt belt?

I think the WP pulley is the culprit, it looks like it rides way too close to the engine, and subsequently positions the fan too far back; it's also why the alt belt wants to ride in the forward groove instead of the rear.

If the WP pulleys were farther forward, it would move the alt belt to the aft position, hopefully move the fan forward to clear the PS pulley, then the PS pulley could run to the new, added crank pulley position.

Thoughts?
PULLEYS2.JPG
PULLEYS3.JPG
 
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Your settup right now does not even seem right. My stock 73, which had a smog pump had the double crank pulley and double waterpump pulley just like you have there. The alternator belt runs on the rear, larger groove of the WP. The forward groove was for the smog pump belt. Looks like you will need some new pulleys all around, as Coolerman noted. I'm not sure why it does not line up right now though. Is that a very early single groove crank pulley. I had to put a single groove pulley on my WP years ago, as the double one fatigue cracked and broke, but the singular groove on it, is the rear one and lined up fine for the alt.
 

Poser

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That water pump pulley is for a later 2F, and designed to work with a fan and clutch assembly, not a direct-drive fan like what is used on the older cast iron F water pump that you have on there currently, and is not going to line up properly with any combination of F engine parts.
 
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Does the bolt pattern on a 2F fan differ from an F fan? What's different about the "depth" of a 2F fan?

Is the 2F water pump longer (spaces the pulleys farther from the head) than the F pump?

I agree that my 2-row crank pulley scheme won't be much use without a fix at the water pump, but I'm now wondering WHY my alt/crank is riding on the WP forward pully, and not the aft like it should be...

So is that it, I need a swap to a 2F pump, pulley, and fan?
 
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I checked the SOR catalogue, and saw a spacer that is specified for '72 thru '75 that looks like it spaces the fan from the WP pulley. I do not have this!

Also, Poser indicated that the WP pulley in the photos is from a later 2F; the SOR
catalogue lists a different p/n for '68-'72, '72-'75, '75-'76(thru '79 for FJ55), '76-'80('79-'80 for FJ55). Any idea which one I have?

Should I go for a '68-'72 pulley (closest to my year), use the spacer, and add a 2-row crank pulley? Will that set me up right?
 

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Brider,
Been there, still doing that...
Can't use a fan clutch on a Pig, not enough room. And the mounting flange (on the front of the water pump) for a clutched fan is different from the direct-drive fan...
BUT, you can pull the flange off the 2F water pump (with a puller) and replace it with the flange from the F water pump. And you can slide that flange (Adjusting the final position of the pulley) a little bit.
Further complicating things, I'm using an after-market alt in the 2F location...
Mine is not lined up as well as I'd like, and I still have some adjusting to do, but it's pretty close right now. I'll see if I can find some new batteries for the camera and post a pic...
 
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I think you are on the right track there Brider. But, I think you need the next year spread up on the 1F waterpump pulley. Mine is a 4/73 and had the double pulley on the WP. I bet the 68-72 is the single pulley, like what I ended up with to replace mine after failure. Looking at SOR, the smog pump shows up in late 72. I would look for the same year issues on the crank also. This should get you a stock dual groove settup on the F engine with F waterpump. And the spacer thing will put the fan back where it needs to be, didn't notice that in your pic.

But, I have no clue if the later model pulleys will align with the older 1F grooves, or if Coolerman is correct in that you need all the newer 2F components and geometrys to make the stock brackets align.
 
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So your suggestion is...what is your suggestion?

I don't want to run a clutch fan, are you saying an F fan will not line up, bolt-wise, with a 2F pump? I don't know if I want/need to run a 2F pump, either.

Sounds like I need either:

A. A 2F pump that will use my alleged 2F pulley and a plastic non-clutch fan,

OR,

B. An F pulley and spacer.

Can anyone post a pic of what stock '71-ish FJ55 WP looks like, and also a later 2F setup? Or direct me to a previous post?
 

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My website has pics of both a stock 71 FJ40 set up, and the conversion I did just a while ago to the 2F alternator setup which required me to use the 2F water pump and 2 groove water pump pulley, 2F 6 blade direct drive fan and in my case a FJ60 3 groove pulley.
 

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Arrrgh...camera not working.
I've got my spare water pumps all lined up. Cast Iron and aluminum are the same size with matching shaft lengths. I've got a spare spacer (5/8") and some spare 2 groove waterpump pulleys. and some spare flanges. Where you located?
 
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that water pump pulley is a 2f variety, but is for the direct drive fans(circa 1/'75-8/'76), not the fan clutch. the F pulley should have a shorter dish before the front groove.

Something looks wierd with the harmonic balancer. seems to be a bit too far away from the timing cover to me.

That water pump pulley is for a later 2F, and designed to work with a fan and clutch assembly, not a direct-drive fan like what is used on the older cast iron F water pump that you have on there currently, and is not going to line up properly with any combination of F engine parts.
 

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I thought that 2F waterpumps were aluminum, and F waterpumps were cast iron...
But the pulley pictured above looks to have two equal-sized grooves, whereas the two spare 2-groove waterpump pulleys that I have for a direct-drive fan have a wide/narrow groove setup...and the one waterpump pulley that I have for a clutched fan have 2 equal sized grooves.
And the pulleys share the bolt pattern of the drive flange, so since the bolt patterns are different, you can't use a clutched pulley with a direct fan...
So I don't know what that waterpump pulley is. Maybe a 2F that did not use a fan clutch? Like a '75-'77 Pig?
But, I'm starting to think that if you simply put the 5/8" spacer between the front of the waterpump and the inside of the dish in the pulley, it will move your double pulley forward that 5/8" and maybe line up the inner waterpump pulley with the crank pulley better.
 
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Pighead, I was thinking that exact thing, but then the spacer was not designed to go UNDER the pulley, so I'm thinkin' it won't fit.

I sent you a PM, so we can discuss any spare parts you're willing to give up off-line.

But based on this discussion (thanks, all), I want to get back to the stock smog-version F configuration, both WP and crank.
 
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as mentioned before, your water pump pulley is definitely a 2F non fan clutch water pump pulley on an F water pump. that style pulley came on 2F's in Fj40's from 1/'75 - 8/'76, and on FJ55's from 1/'75 - 1/'79(maybe later if it didnt have the clutch fan option)

below is a picture of my 73 Fj55, with F motor water pump, dual groove pulley(1 wide/1 narrow) and matching balancer(although pictured has 3rd belt for OEM A/C. I have a flex fan on the setup, so the spacer is slightly different, and about 3/8" longer than the stock one.

In your case, I would find a 2 groove crank pulley from a 2F, so you can utilize the stock 3FE PS pump. If you have the 2F (2 wide groove) pulley setup, the 3FE pump is a bolt in with no belt alignment issues. I have done it on the 2F in my old Fj45. Works great. alternator belt on aft groove, and PS on fwd groove IIRC. you will need a 2F water pump(hub heights are different between F and 2F(w/o clutch) water pump, but rockauto.com has waterpumps for 75 Fj40's for $35
f pulley.JPG
 
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Cruiserbrett:

If your pic is of a stock '73 FJ55 waterpump, why couldn't I just get a F WP pulley, instead of a 2F WP? Would they both be equivalent, pulley-position-wise?

Put another way,

Does (F pump + 2F pulley)-(2F pulley)+(F pulley) [my plan as of 45 min ago]

equal

(F pump + 2F pulley)-(F pump)+(2F pump) [your suggestion]

???
 
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werent you going to use a 3fe PS pump? If you source a 2F crank pulley and 2F water pump(you have the correct waterpump pulley already), you wont have any issues with the belt alignment on the 3FE PS pump, and it will be able to use the larger belt that the 3FE pump is designed for.

If youre scrapping the 3FE PS pump idea, I would just get the F water pump pulley.
 

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It's silly to argue with cruiserbrett and I'm not gonna. If he says that's a 2F non clutch pulley, that's what it is.
Funnily enough, now that I've checked, brider is using the same waterpump pulley as I am.
Li'l John just came by to pick a hinge & stuff for his new Pig, we took a few pics, maybe I can get him to post tonight.
As to "hub height", that is adjustable. I'm just figuring this out now and need to back in and adjust mine. Cruiserbrett calls it a hub, I've been calling it a flange.
And the clutched hub has a different (wider) bolt pattern, but the hubs are removeable and swapable. And you can adjust that hub on the shaft about 1/4".
They're just a press fit.





as mentioned before, your water pump pulley is definitely a 2F non fan clutch water pump pulley on an F water pump. that style pulley came on 2F's in Fj40's from 1/'75 - 8/'76, and on FJ55's from 1/'75 - 1/'79(maybe later if it didnt have the clutch fan option)

below is a picture of my 73 Fj55, with F motor water pump, dual groove pulley(1 wide/1 narrow) and matching balancer(although pictured has 3rd belt for OEM A/C. I have a flex fan on the setup, so the spacer is slightly different, and about 3/8" longer than the stock one.

In your case, I would find a 2 groove crank pulley from a 2F, so you can utilize the stock 3FE PS pump. If you have the 2F (2 wide groove) pulley setup, the 3FE pump is a bolt in with no belt alignment issues. I have done it on the 2F in my old Fj45. Works great. alternator belt on aft groove, and PS on fwd groove IIRC. you will need a 2F water pump(hub heights are different between F and 2F(w/o clutch) water pump, but rockauto.com has waterpumps for 75 Fj40's for $35
 

Pighead

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No, dude, it's just that you know what you're talking about.
I know that.
Plus, you're right.
It's like trying to argue with Jim C. or poser. Silly.
 

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