ARCHIVE Under Seat Mounted Fire Extinguisher Mount, need feedback.

[mingles]

My review of the Wits’ End FEM

First and foremost I would like to thank Joey for putting out a first class fire extinguisher mount. I have installed the mount and, after a few fitment tweaks, I am very pleased with the fit and workmanship. It is a solid addition to the vehicle.

Vehicle – 1997 LX450, factory power seats

Pros – solid construction, custom fit for the vehicle, switch cutouts and multiple bolt holes allow for a wide range of user customization. In short, a real nice piece of workmanship.

Cons – roughly half of the forward seat travel is blocked by the metal seat frame and plastic valance (at least on the LX) impacting the FEM. See my workaround below.

For some drivers the lack of forward seat movement may not be an issue. In my situation my wife is 5’4” and drives with the seat all the way forward. Additionally, I often have kids in the vehicle and kids play with power seats. In stock form, if the forward seat movement button is depressed and held, the seat will travel forward until it impacts the FEM and at that point, either the FEM will deform (probably not as it is stout) or the seat gears will eventually strip. In my experience, telling someone not to put the seat forward doesn’t work as eventually someone will forget and then I am left to fix the damage.

Here is the solution I came up with. I raised the front of the seat by 1.5” with extender brackets that I fabbed up using ¼” aluminum flat stock. There was enough “wiggle room” with all the seat bolts loosened to raise the front and then re-tighten with the brackets in place. The driving geometry hasn’t changed as the lowest seat height setting now, is equal to the highest height setting before the lift. All parts of the seat bracket and valance now clear the FEM and the seat has full forward travel.

See pics below.

 

[NLXTACY]

Sorry, I totally missed the email you sent about this same thing. Glad you like the mount and thank you so much for the review.

Couple of items of the note that I will detail inline with your text...

First and foremost I would like to thank Joey for putting out a first class fire extinguisher mount. I have installed the mount and, after a few fitment tweaks, I am very pleased with the fit and workmanship. It is a solid addition to the vehicle.

This makes me very happy. Thank you!

Pros – solid construction, custom fit for the vehicle, switch cutouts and multiple bolt holes allow for a wide range of user customization. In short, a real nice piece of workmanship.

Cons – roughly half of the forward seat travel is blocked by the metal seat frame and plastic valance (at least on the LX) impacting the FEM.

Necessary evil to keep the extinguisher off the floor and keep the nozzle and handle safe.

For some drivers the lack of forward seat movement may not be an issue. In my situation my wife is 5’4” and drives with the seat all the way forward. Additionally, I often have kids in the vehicle and kids play with power seats. In stock form, if the forward seat movement button is depressed and held, the seat will travel forward until it impacts the FEM and at that point, either the FEM will deform (probably not as it is stout) or the seat gears will eventually strip.

The seat can and will bend the FEM-1 if you drive the seat into the mount especially without an extinguisher mounted in place to distribute the load. The seats motor already "looks" for a hard stop to stop the motor. If the FEM-1 were any stiffer then the motors would stop as if it sees a hard stop.

Here is the solution I came up with. I raised the front of the seat by 1.5” with extender brackets that I fabbed up using ¼” aluminum flat stock. There was enough “wiggle room” with all the seat bolts loosened to raise the front and then re-tighten with the brackets in place. The driving geometry hasn’t changed as the lowest seat height setting now, is equal to the highest height setting before the lift. All parts of the seat bracket and valance now clear the FEM and the seat has full forward travel.

Honestly, this is probably fine to get you situated as a "work around" but I don't see this as a good idea for several reasons:

1) The stacked height of the material being held by the 14mm seat bolt. There is a structural requirement for ALL screw vs. nut engagement and this is crucial for the seat and seat belt bolt found in all cars, especially anything found in North America. By adding in that 1/4" bar stock you, for sure, added enough to the stacked height thus drawing the bolt under the welded and supported nut found in the body of the truck. Lack of full and "proud" (meaning there are threads exposed on the other side that you can't see) engagement means that the actual strength of the bolt has been GREATLY reduced. Now times that by two because you did the same for both from bolts. Even though I do NOT think this is a solution as a whole, you should at the very least source a bolt that is at least 1/4" or slightly longer.

2) You have introduced a potential dual-pivot point for the seat. Yes you can argue that the rear bolts are held firm at 45ft. Lbs and not modified and not going anywhere. But think of a side or even front impact at high rate of speed. That 1/4" aluminum bar will fold in half given the first opportunity and a side impact gives the potential of the front of the seat to pivot from left to right. Enough force could cause some serious damage.

So sure, it works fine but the potential for harm is absolutely there. I suppose this is where I say, "this solution is outside of its intended design and therefore you assume the risk and consequences for it". Sorry, I'm sure there is another way, maybe we can brain storm on it.

Otherwise I do appreciate that you wanted to get my mount in there enough that you were willing to find a solution that works for you and for that I thank you

 

[NLXTACY]

I know who I want to see this. @Golgo13 Hey Lex can you read from the top of this page and verify?

 

[NLXTACY]

CURRENT DEVELOPMENT

I picked up the FEM insert and was playing around with it. I may make a couple of little changes but I need to finish the lid before I can make any further changes to this design. This is going to be a "no-frills" pouch for the FEM-1. Its NOT going to be an APU, just a simple pouch. I am intending on just velcro'ing it to the inside of the FEM. I wanted those interested in it to see it and be able to give feedback before I start producing any more of them.

• Single wall (not dual or even padded like the APUs)
• Soft wall (no rigid wall like the APUs)
• "raw" side will be facing the inside of the FEM
• No branding at all or I could do silkscreen on the inside on the extinguisher side so its not in your face when you open the lid
• Stitching hidden inside the legs of the FEM
• *might* need to notch for the lock's cam, don't know yet
• If you are rocking the switches then the material would just drape over the wiring
- this could be an issue if its heavy stuff in the locked space

Thoughts? Feedback? Interest? Sucks? Hell no? Why do I bother?

 

[NLXTACY]

What it looks like removed from the FEM...

 

[Dirty Koala]

I like it. Doesnt need to be fancy, just functional.

 

[mingles]

Sorry, I totally missed the email you sent about this same thing. Glad you like the mount and thank you so much for the review.

Couple of items of the note that I will detail inline with your text...



This makes me very happy. Thank you!







Necessary evil to keep the extinguisher off the floor and keep the nozzle and handle safe.



The seat can and will bend the FEM-1 if you drive the seat into the mount especially without an extinguisher mounted in place to distribute the load. The seats motor already "looks" for a hard stop to stop the motor. If the FEM-1 were any stiffer then the motors would stop as if it sees a hard stop.



Honestly, this is probably fine to get you situated as a "work around" but I don't see this as a good idea for several reasons:

1) The stacked height of the material being held by the 14mm seat bolt. There is a structural requirement for ALL screw vs. nut engagement and this is crucial for the seat and seat belt bolt found in all cars, especially anything found in North America. By adding in that 1/4" bar stock you, for sure, added enough to the stacked height thus drawing the bolt under the welded and supported nut found in the body of the truck. Lack of full and "proud" (meaning there are threads exposed on the other side that you can't see) engagement means that the actual strength of the bolt has been GREATLY reduced. Now times that by two because you did the same for both from bolts. Even though I do NOT think this is a solution as a whole, you should at the very least source a bolt that is at least 1/4" or slightly longer.

2) You have introduced a potential dual-pivot point for the seat. Yes you can argue that the rear bolts are held firm at 45ft. Lbs and not modified and not going anywhere. But think of a side or even front impact at high rate of speed. That 1/4" aluminum bar will fold in half given the first opportunity and a side impact gives the potential of the front of the seat to pivot from left to right. Enough force could cause some serious damage.

So sure, it works fine but the potential for harm is absolutely there. I suppose this is where I say, "this solution is outside of its intended design and therefore you assume the risk and consequences for it". Sorry, I'm sure there is another way, maybe we can brain storm on it.

Otherwise I do appreciate that you wanted to get my mount in there enough that you were willing to find a solution that works for you and for that I thank you

Thanks for the feedback on my modification.

You bring up many valid points, many of which were going through my mind as well as I worked on this yesterday. The aluminum bar stock was what I had on hand for the first prototype. I still intend to play with different materials and seat heights to reduce the amount of added leverage to those front feet in the event of a crash. The other option I thought of is raising the seat by adding a spacer between mounting point of the seat front foot and seat rail. This would require drilling out the rivet holding those two pieces together and replacing it with a bolt. This would put crash forces in shear as opposed to bending the riser brackets as they currently sit.

I completely understand that this is my idea, on my truck, and I am solely responsible for any associated risk. That being said, the total height needed to clear the FEM is only about 3/4". There has to be a safe way to add that in to the picture to allow the full range of seat adjustment.

I'm open to suggestions. After all, it's only metal...

 

[Golgo13]

I agree with @NLXTACY that your seat is no longer as safe as it was originally designed with that workaround.

For the bolts, as long as you have full thread engagement and proper torque, the joint is ok. You're always better with extra threads sticking out than you are with too few threads. Get some good quality bolts, a little longer.

For the way that front of the seat is anchored, it isn't ideal. Ultimately, the seat belt is more important, and it is anchored to the floor, so seems ok. However the front of the seat mount is no longer being loaded in its original condition. At the same time, comparing early air bag systems like we would find in an 80, to something like a brand new 200, they are downright primitive. So I'll say it's is less safe because you slightly changed the load path from the seat to the body, but there is so much room for variation in the system, it won't be much different.

 

[NLXTACY]

Thanks for the feedback on my modification.

Of course, thats why we all do this

You bring up many valid points, many of which were going through my mind as well as I worked on this yesterday. The aluminum bar stock was what I had on hand for the first prototype. I still intend to play with different materials and seat heights to reduce the amount of added leverage to those front feet in the event of a crash. The other option I thought of is raising the seat by adding a spacer between mounting point of the seat front foot and seat rail. This would require drilling out the rivet holding those two pieces together and replacing it with a bolt. This would put crash forces in shear as opposed to bending the riser brackets as they currently sit.

This gets you there safely pretty much doing exactly what you are thinking of:
http://ajikoverlandexchange.com/products-page/landtank/seat-bracket-kit/

But you reduce full forward depth so not sure it is an ideal solution.

I completely understand that this is my idea, on my truck, and I am solely responsible for any associated risk. That being said, the total height needed to clear the FEM is only about 3/4". There has to be a safe way to add that in to the picture to allow the full range of seat adjustment.

I know, its killing me too. I want to be able to use the stupid pouch and lid that I'm designing for it and right now its useless to me

I'm open to suggestions. After all, it's only metal...

Exactly!

 

[Golgo13]

@mingles you posted while I was typing...

I like your willingness to experiment and change this up. I also like the spacer idea a lot better.

Take pictures of your process for the next iteration. I like this and i'd like to see it

 

[NLXTACY]

I like your willingness to experiment and change this up. I also like the spacer idea a lot better.

Another shout out to @landtank and AJIK

 

[landtank]

I'd like to point out that when you are installing my seat mod it's more secure than just placing a spacer on top of the foot.

This is because while I do use new M6 bolts on the two front feet I also take advantage of the mounting block for the following nut and add an addition two M8 bolts there as well.

You can see the extra two bolts in this picture. For those who have a concern that the chair being moved back would cause less tall people issues, my wife is 5'2" tall and drives my truck. If you move the stock seat all the way forward there is so little room I don't think anyone could drive it. As a test I would move the seat all the way forward and then back 2" and have the other person sit in the chair to check fit.

 

[LS1FJ40]

So, the FEM-1 with the lid and pouch will work with my Poverty Pack 80 with manual seats no problem, correct?

 

[landtank]

I haven't been following this thread and only really stop by when I get tagged. After looking through it and seeing what people are looking to do I can pretty easily modify my seat bracket so it only lifts the front of the seat 3/4" and also uses those second set of bolts to secure it to the seat rail.

Don't want to step on anyone's toes here but it would be quite easy to do.

 

[NLXTACY]

I'd like to point out that when you are installing my seat mod it's more secure than just placing a spacer on top of the foot.

This is because while I do use new M6 bolts on the two front feet I also take advantage of the mounting block for the following nut and add an addition two M8 bolts there as well.View attachment 1091231
You can see the extra two bolts in this picture. For those who have a concern that the chair being moved back would cause less tall people issues, my wife is 5'2" tall and drives my truck. If you move the stock seat all the way forward there is so little room I don't think anyone could drive it. As a test I would move the seat all the way forward and then back 2" and have the other person sit in the chair to check fit.

Thanks Rick, I was hoping you'd chime in

 

[NLXTACY]

I haven't been following this thread and only really stop by when I get tagged. After looking through it and seeing what people are looking to do I can pretty easily modify my seat bracket so it only lifts the front of the seat 3/4" and also uses those second set of bolts to secure it to the seat rail.

Don't want to step on anyone's toes here but it would be quite easy to do.

DO IT!!!!!

Rick, don't ever feel like you're stepping on MY toes. Seriously. You see something f'd up, point it out and run me through the ringer.

 

[NLXTACY]

So, the FEM-1 with the lid and pouch will work with my Poverty Pack 80 with manual seats no problem, correct?

Did you see @bryson post a few pages back?

 

[NLXTACY]

And yes, I'm working on a lid. Super lame test with scrap pieces.

 

[NLXTACY]

I haven't been following this thread.

No love

 

[landtank]

No love

only so many hours in the day buddy.