trying to resurrect a 93 that has been sitting 2 yrs won't start
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OK so looking around on the net for proper pics of the cam markings they are on the back of the cams not the front I went out and checked the backs of them.. Paint marks are very faded but I see small dots.. Here is a pic of the cams at no 1 TDC compression:
See how there is on dot on the left (driver side cam) then two dots then one dot on the pass cam then two dots. If I were a betting man I'd think it should be two dots -one dot- one dot-two dots? Could the driver side cam be in 180 deg off? According to this diagram:
Here is a pic of the cams 180 off TDC:
Maybe we have something here? If this is the case how hard is it to turn that cam around 180 degrees? Is it as easy as just unbolting the thing and turning it around 180 deg then bolt it back up? Torque to specs of course..
See how there is on dot on the left (driver side cam) then two dots then one dot on the pass cam then two dots. If I were a betting man I'd think it should be two dots -one dot- one dot-two dots? Could the driver side cam be in 180 deg off? According to this diagram:
Here is a pic of the cams 180 off TDC:
Maybe we have something here? If this is the case how hard is it to turn that cam around 180 degrees? Is it as easy as just unbolting the thing and turning it around 180 deg then bolt it back up? Torque to specs of course..
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Yes, it looks like the cams are not sequenced properly. You really need to read the FSM starting at page EG-43 removal of the cams as there is a very specific order to do so. Your going to have to improvise on the procedure to remove the exhaust cam as it assumes that you have proper sequencing to begin with. The cam lobes have to be pointed properly before you start removing the caps.
If you haven't got a FSM here is a link to download. Choose the 94 version of the FZJ80 which would be the one for your 93 model.
For Sale - 40, 50, 60, and 80 series FSM for a hell of a price.
If you haven't got a FSM here is a link to download. Choose the 94 version of the FZJ80 which would be the one for your 93 model.
For Sale - 40, 50, 60, and 80 series FSM for a hell of a price.
That is so bizarre. Who did the rebuild?
Intermittent compression readings can be caused by sticking valves, sticking rings, battery starting to fail after each test, throttle should be wide open, all plugs removed.
Cam timing being out would give poor or no compression readings but they would be consistently poor/non existent, I would check and record valve clearances, then rotate by hand and measure again, if any valves are sticking then the clearances will change.
I have not read the thread thoroughly but assume there is fresh fuel and the air filter does not have a rats nest in it, seen that before!
regards
Dave
Cam timing being out would give poor or no compression readings but they would be consistently poor/non existent, I would check and record valve clearances, then rotate by hand and measure again, if any valves are sticking then the clearances will change.
I have not read the thread thoroughly but assume there is fresh fuel and the air filter does not have a rats nest in it, seen that before!
regards
Dave
Keep at it guys. No reason to quite and it seems like you're onto something now with the cams. Plus it's all a learning experience, for the both of you. Even with having to replace the HG if you do, it won't cost much tbh.
I had a honda that I did the timing belt on when I was 17. Took me for ever to figure out I the parts timed differently from each other. So much so that I got it running and it'd backfire exhaust out of the intake. Even with that once I got it timed properly she ran without issue or damage.
I had a honda that I did the timing belt on when I was 17. Took me for ever to figure out I the parts timed differently from each other. So much so that I got it running and it'd backfire exhaust out of the intake. Even with that once I got it timed properly she ran without issue or damage.
Good luck with it.
If you part it out, I'd be hanging onto those locked axles and everything that makes them run
If you part it out, I'd be hanging onto those locked axles and everything that makes them run
OK so looking around on the net for proper pics of the cam markings they are on the back of the cams not the front I went out and checked the backs of them.. Paint marks are very faded but I see small dots.. Here is a pic of the cams at no 1 TDC compression:
See how there is on dot on the left (driver side cam) then two dots then one dot on the pass cam then two dots. If I were a betting man I'd think it should be two dots -one dot- one dot-two dots? Could the driver side cam be in 180 deg off? According to this diagram:
Maybe we have something here? If this is the case how hard is it to turn that cam around 180 degrees? Is it as easy as just unbolting the thing and turning it around 180 deg then bolt it back up? Torque to specs of course..
and the mystery plot thickens for @Eicca although I thought the stuck valve was a pretty good story myself
Nice catch with the cams 180 out. single dot><single dot and double><double
As PPC mentions there is a sequence to unbolting the cam so it lifts out evenly with out getting bound or damaged
In very general terms 5 of 7 caps can come off without issue still following the FSM sequenced alternating bolt procedure and 2 of 7 bearing caps need particular attention as they control lifting of the cam without harm. These two share a particular relation of the cam lobe and lifter at that point in timing and unfortunately you cannot follow the FSM's description of which two because one of the cams is out 180.
Time for a little more sleuthing..... EG-25,26,27,28 in a (1995) FSM will help. Engine >cylinder head>components for removal
just heads up to read and understand the process as their bearing cap # vs sequencing # can be a little confusing plus you may find yours to be different.
Try placing the single dot on exhaust cam (pass side) in the center of gearset and compare the lobe/lifter position on FSM specified caps #4 and #6 (there are 7) and see if one position looks like it has a more appropriate cam lobe to lifter relationship for an even controlled lift? That would be the appropriate position to lift and then look at "dot/dimple" position on timing gears and compare to spec. (i believe* the broad bottom non wear end of lobe or the side point of transition but id verify)
or someone can probably explain better exatly what your looking for shortly but may try and search out FAQ or some 'cam removal' 'timing gear' 'valve train' etc posts here looking for a detailed write up with some pics
but if you take the Exhaust cam out DO NOT forget the m6 x 1.0 by 15-20 mm service bolt to hold the two part gear together.
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COngratulaitions on getting this far! You are teaching your son some SERIOUS troubleshooting! Assume NOTHING.
Right now, you don't know WHICH cam is out of spec, or even if they are BOTH out of spec. They may have been dropped back in, UNRELATED to TDC.
Fortunately, this is a NON-interference engine, so the valves would not crash into the top of the pistons. Gotta say though, that starter sounds HORRIBLE!
So, you need to start from the BEGINNING.
Remove the camshafts, in the proper sequence. THEN determine the proper TDC. Then reinstall the cams in the correct order and orientation, then the distributor.
I am concerned about the oil spraying out as such, as it seems to be spraying in a random spray and it SHOULD be going through the system. However, maybe the incorrect orientation has something to do with this.
Don't forget to use a zip tie on the timing chain and gear so you don't drop the gear. Use a flashlight and check down into the timing cover to make sure you can see the timing chain tensioner and that it appears to be intact.
You will most likely have to re-orient the timing chain gear within the chain in order for it to bolt back up to the camshaft.
Once you align the crankshaft to TDC, that will BECOME the compression stroke when you put the camshafts back in. In other words, the crankshaft doesn't have a right or wrong to begin with, it is only when the camshafts are timed to it that anything can be 180 degrees out.
Whoever the shop was that did the work had no idea what they were doing. Once you get it going, I wonder if the head gasket was actually installed properly as well as the head torque.
Great Work and Good Luck!
Right now, you don't know WHICH cam is out of spec, or even if they are BOTH out of spec. They may have been dropped back in, UNRELATED to TDC.
Fortunately, this is a NON-interference engine, so the valves would not crash into the top of the pistons. Gotta say though, that starter sounds HORRIBLE!
So, you need to start from the BEGINNING.
Remove the camshafts, in the proper sequence. THEN determine the proper TDC. Then reinstall the cams in the correct order and orientation, then the distributor.
I am concerned about the oil spraying out as such, as it seems to be spraying in a random spray and it SHOULD be going through the system. However, maybe the incorrect orientation has something to do with this.
Don't forget to use a zip tie on the timing chain and gear so you don't drop the gear. Use a flashlight and check down into the timing cover to make sure you can see the timing chain tensioner and that it appears to be intact.
You will most likely have to re-orient the timing chain gear within the chain in order for it to bolt back up to the camshaft.
Once you align the crankshaft to TDC, that will BECOME the compression stroke when you put the camshafts back in. In other words, the crankshaft doesn't have a right or wrong to begin with, it is only when the camshafts are timed to it that anything can be 180 degrees out.
Whoever the shop was that did the work had no idea what they were doing. Once you get it going, I wonder if the head gasket was actually installed properly as well as the head torque.
Great Work and Good Luck!
As a suggestion:
Don't start a new thread with each question or issue. I was trying to follow what you were doing and I lost track because the thread title changed.....
Stick with this one or copy this info into the other ones. Pick one and stick with it so we can track history of what has happened and later on, you can have a chronological record of what you guys have done, all in one place.
Don't start a new thread with each question or issue. I was trying to follow what you were doing and I lost track because the thread title changed.....
Stick with this one or copy this info into the other ones. Pick one and stick with it so we can track history of what has happened and later on, you can have a chronological record of what you guys have done, all in one place.
I understand the NON-interference principal with the valves not coming in contact with the pistons but with the cams out of sequence could the intake and exhaust valves collide? I'm trying to figure out why the inconsistent readings with the compression test. Could the valves be bent and rotating, sometimes sealing better than others?
I will bet that if the compression test was run MANY times, you would see a numeric pattern emerge of it hitting 120 PSI every 12th time or 24th time or something. Since the cams were out of time with EACH OTHER, then the intake valve or the exhaust valve was open at the WRONG time. When the piston would come up, it would NORMALLY be on the compression stroke every OTHER rotation (4-stroke). However, since the cams were off, it would exhaust out the INTAKE sometimes and out the EXHAUST other times, but the spark NEVER occurred during a compression stroke along with a fuel injection. Many things must happen at the same time.
I do NOT think the valves are bent. No, they will not overlap and get hooked on each other or collide with each other in the same cylinder. During normal operation, there is SUPPOSED to be valve overlap (of XX number of degrees) for proper scavenging of the cylinder. I do not know what it is on these engines, but I'm sure SOMEONE on here knows. (@scottryana probably). Valve overlap is that BOTH intake and exhaust valves are open (or partially open) at the same time.
In a 4-stroke every two revolutions of the crank the relationship of the components is going to be the same. The compression test each time was certainly multiple revolutions each.
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- #55
Hey guys thanks for all the replies and suggestions I am still trying to wrap my head around everything.. This is about as deep as I have been with internal engine issues. I have the FSM and plan on reading up on the proper method on removing the cams.. The last thing I want to do is to make it even worse or seriously damage something. I got a bit of info on the guy that did this repair from the PO today. He is\was a mechanic by trade, but I guess a the time he was going through some very difficult personal problems and self medication if ya catch my drift. I just don't think his head was totally there (obviously) when he did the fix. I also confirmed that after he put everything back together it never did run. He was going to try contacting the guy and asking him what he thought about it.. But I am not holding my breath on that one. As for he question about good gas and filter yes I drained all the old gas and put in fresh as well as a clean filter.. So we are good there. @BILT4ME if you wanna get your hands dirty I'd love to have ya over to take a look at is as it sounds like you know way more about this kind of problem than I do.. I'll take ya to dinner or feed ya some beer if that is your kind of thing ;>) if not I plan on coming to the tornado cruisers meeting this Sat.. I think you were planning on it as well. Anyhow look forward to meeting ya..
I have to see what my schedule is for the week. I know the kids have a lot of events. If I do I would love to schedule it when my 17 YO is available so he can go through the process as well. Don't hold your breath on waiting on me.
I will help through here as much as I can.
I think I sent you my mobile number through PM. You can also text me or call me.
I am planning on going this Sat.
Anxious for updates? lol
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- #58
This thread has unexpectedly picked up in another thread you can go here it view more. Hope to test it out to night
Pics of cams at proper TDC
Pics of cams at proper TDC
I saw that. Cheers.
Good work. Have faith in the fsm, I followed it to the T when I did my complete tear down and rebuild. And that was the first engine I'd ever rebuilt. (It runs great now)