Those without sway bars-
- Thread starter Doc
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I read this today and pulled my front sway bar..
Stock truck with the J lift, only like an inch of noticeable extra bodyroll when turning sharply. I'll try the rear off if I get time to pull it tomorrow and report back.
Stock truck with the J lift, only like an inch of noticeable extra bodyroll when turning sharply. I'll try the rear off if I get time to pull it tomorrow and report back.
Doc,
-Bushings are not pressed in...easy to replace. Get under the truck and take a closer look at it.
-If you ever going to have a roof rack, then w/o sway bars is a bad idea.
-Driving w/o sway bars on hwy takes getting used to...Why not try it and see if you like it?
-You ever gonna plan on driving the family in it on the hwy and take evasive maneuvers? Perhaps winter driving? Think about that one....
-Wife ever gonna drive your vehicle? W/o sway bars, the handling is real crappy when she is used to driving a car most of the time.
-Anybody can get used to a real s***ty ride but doesn't mean it's for everyone.
-Use disconnects for the best of both worlds.
-Bushings are not pressed in...easy to replace. Get under the truck and take a closer look at it.
-If you ever going to have a roof rack, then w/o sway bars is a bad idea.
-Driving w/o sway bars on hwy takes getting used to...Why not try it and see if you like it?
-You ever gonna plan on driving the family in it on the hwy and take evasive maneuvers? Perhaps winter driving? Think about that one....
-Wife ever gonna drive your vehicle? W/o sway bars, the handling is real crappy when she is used to driving a car most of the time.
-Anybody can get used to a real s***ty ride but doesn't mean it's for everyone.
-Use disconnects for the best of both worlds.
alia176 said:
Very good points indeed!
I removed both on my stock truck with OME J springs and L shocks with 35s. Only noticeable difference is when I take a turn at low speed, I can tell the car leans more around the turn, but only like 2".
I'm pretty sure this is because the springs and shocks are stiff as they are designed for more weight I'm sure...so that keeps the truck pretty rigid.
I can definately imagine a rough rack and weight on it would add to the lean in turns.
I'm going to leave them off for a week or 2 and decide if I want to leave them off or put them back on.
I'm pretty sure this is because the springs and shocks are stiff as they are designed for more weight I'm sure...so that keeps the truck pretty rigid.
I can definately imagine a rough rack and weight on it would add to the lean in turns.
I'm going to leave them off for a week or 2 and decide if I want to leave them off or put them back on.
2badfjs said:sway bars are over rated
i love the lean in a turn
LOVE the lean...give it a go I say you'll love it
Doc,
A stock 80 will easily roll in an emergency evasive maneuver despite Toyota's best efforts, and they are among the best in the world at this work. It's a high center of gravity vehicle, blah, blah. The most dangerous type of accident in any vehicle (highest fatalities) is the rollover, and you're driving the type of vehicle that rolls more often than others. Adding larger tires, and lifts exponentially increases the danger.
The sway bars are in place specifically to reduce the danger of rolling. Removing them for a vehicle driven most of its miles is a questionable move - especially if it's already lifted and tired. Call your insurance company and anonymously ask them how they feel about removing a part on the vehicle designed to prevent it from going out of control and rolling.
I see the value in a trail rig. For those claiming it doesn't affect their handling, it rolls less, or it isn't noticeable - please identify the controlled substance you are using as it must be good stuff.
DougM
A stock 80 will easily roll in an emergency evasive maneuver despite Toyota's best efforts, and they are among the best in the world at this work. It's a high center of gravity vehicle, blah, blah. The most dangerous type of accident in any vehicle (highest fatalities) is the rollover, and you're driving the type of vehicle that rolls more often than others. Adding larger tires, and lifts exponentially increases the danger.
The sway bars are in place specifically to reduce the danger of rolling. Removing them for a vehicle driven most of its miles is a questionable move - especially if it's already lifted and tired. Call your insurance company and anonymously ask them how they feel about removing a part on the vehicle designed to prevent it from going out of control and rolling.
I see the value in a trail rig. For those claiming it doesn't affect their handling, it rolls less, or it isn't noticeable - please identify the controlled substance you are using as it must be good stuff.
DougM
I figured the same thing - "What if I have a situation where I need to turn or break fast to avoid a collision?"
I attempted this first in an empty parking lot and started slow, worked my way up to 50mph with hard quick turns.
I can almost guarantee I'd be on 2 wheels with the stock worn out suspension with what I was doing without the sway bars....but the truck wasn't even close to raising a tire with the new Js and no heavy load or added weight on the roof.
I don't see it trying to flip without sliding sideways into a tall curb to "trip" it.
As long as I don't attach a canoe to the roof, I'll be ok.
I attempted this first in an empty parking lot and started slow, worked my way up to 50mph with hard quick turns.
I can almost guarantee I'd be on 2 wheels with the stock worn out suspension with what I was doing without the sway bars....but the truck wasn't even close to raising a tire with the new Js and no heavy load or added weight on the roof.
I don't see it trying to flip without sliding sideways into a tall curb to "trip" it.
As long as I don't attach a canoe to the roof, I'll be ok.
I just avoided a possible fatality four days ago with the wife's 80 and a trailer full of rocks (2.5 tons). The trailer was improperly loaded at the rock quarry and it caused us to conduct a 45 mph stunt maneuver by turning us around almost 180 degrees.
Wife's 80 is 2.5" lifted on 285 BFG ATs and it handled the spin out beautifully on dry pavement. I shudder to think what'd have happened if this was my 80 (315s, 3.5", M/T tires, etc) and if the sway bars were dropped!
Next time, I'll take a shovel and redistribute the load on my own Oh yeah, I need to order a cargo net because if the stroller became airborn and hit the baby....
Attached are the phone Camera pictures. In the second picture, we were travelling from the right to the left! We lost about a 100 #s of rock that we cleaned up when a buddy arrived with the brooms and shovels.
Ali
Wife's 80 is 2.5" lifted on 285 BFG ATs and it handled the spin out beautifully on dry pavement. I shudder to think what'd have happened if this was my 80 (315s, 3.5", M/T tires, etc) and if the sway bars were dropped!
Next time, I'll take a shovel and redistribute the load on my own
Oh yeah, I need to order a cargo net because if the stroller became airborn and hit the baby....Attached are the phone Camera pictures. In the second picture, we were travelling from the right to the left! We lost about a 100 #s of rock that we cleaned up when a buddy arrived with the brooms and shovels.
Ali
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There are many good arguments for and against running sway bars on the 80 series. This is very much a personal decision to be made by each owner depending on the type and quantity of driving they expect to see with their rig as well as the risks they are willing to take.
I think that one should consider their "Invincibility" when making such a decision. I would venture a guess that those who have had a catastrophic accident or a close call like the one alia176 described above would have a very different view on their respective invincibility. Their decisions on matters regarding personal and family safety would likely reflect that. I know that is easier said than done but using hind sight that is 20/20 I can appreciate the importance of this point of view. As a result of this thread's discussion I have re-evaluated my decision and am planning on re-installing my front sway bar. I think that planning for the worst is better for me and my family than assuring myself that it will never happen because you never know.
No disrespect to any of the views or opinions expressed above just providing another way to look at the issue.
I think that one should consider their "Invincibility" when making such a decision. I would venture a guess that those who have had a catastrophic accident or a close call like the one alia176 described above would have a very different view on their respective invincibility. Their decisions on matters regarding personal and family safety would likely reflect that. I know that is easier said than done but using hind sight that is 20/20 I can appreciate the importance of this point of view. As a result of this thread's discussion I have re-evaluated my decision and am planning on re-installing my front sway bar. I think that planning for the worst is better for me and my family than assuring myself that it will never happen because you never know.
No disrespect to any of the views or opinions expressed above just providing another way to look at the issue.
Cody,
I've spent years developing vehicles for two of the world's largest automakers and can unequivocally say that your lifted vehicle w/o swaybars will roll faster and easier than a stock vehicle. I can appreciate that you drove it around in a parking lot to get a feel for what the changes did to handling - more than 99.99999% of people would do, but unless you were doing instrumented testing, then you yourself don't have any idea what was being tested.
I have made this challenge before. I can roll anybody's 80 in less than 60 seconds on flat pavement. Most likely it will take less than 30 but I'm hedging my bet since I haven't been on a track in years. I have a brother in law who's a crash investigation engineer for the auto industry and they regularly contract with a guy who's a legend in the industry and could flip your 80 before you count to 10.
When I listen to dialogue like this, I have to be honest with you guys and tell you that it's alarming. There's a certain amount of bravado and banter that goes with the territory of being a member of a single make forum like this, and that's fine. But I am here to tell you that anyone who'll make the claim they lifted their 80, installed larger tires, or removed swaybars (either one, BTW) and the truck is now less likely to roll is talking out of their ass. To express that as fact and have other members accept it as fact is pure negligence on the part of the person who claims it, and pure stupidity on the part of the person who accepts it from an unknown person with an unknown (or nonexistent) background in vehicle dynamics.
I think the board can accept a certain amount of bravado and conjecture (ex: "My truck stops faster than stock now that I put 35" tires on it"), but removing swaybars on a vehicle driven on the public roadway shows a lack of respect for the well being of others sharing that roadway. People like our wives, our friends, our daughters, etc. I urge anyone considering this to learn a bit about vehicle dynamics to understand why this is such a completely bad decision.
Respectfully,
DougM
I've spent years developing vehicles for two of the world's largest automakers and can unequivocally say that your lifted vehicle w/o swaybars will roll faster and easier than a stock vehicle. I can appreciate that you drove it around in a parking lot to get a feel for what the changes did to handling - more than 99.99999% of people would do, but unless you were doing instrumented testing, then you yourself don't have any idea what was being tested.
I have made this challenge before. I can roll anybody's 80 in less than 60 seconds on flat pavement. Most likely it will take less than 30 but I'm hedging my bet since I haven't been on a track in years. I have a brother in law who's a crash investigation engineer for the auto industry and they regularly contract with a guy who's a legend in the industry and could flip your 80 before you count to 10.
When I listen to dialogue like this, I have to be honest with you guys and tell you that it's alarming. There's a certain amount of bravado and banter that goes with the territory of being a member of a single make forum like this, and that's fine. But I am here to tell you that anyone who'll make the claim they lifted their 80, installed larger tires, or removed swaybars (either one, BTW) and the truck is now less likely to roll is talking out of their ass. To express that as fact and have other members accept it as fact is pure negligence on the part of the person who claims it, and pure stupidity on the part of the person who accepts it from an unknown person with an unknown (or nonexistent) background in vehicle dynamics.
I think the board can accept a certain amount of bravado and conjecture (ex: "My truck stops faster than stock now that I put 35" tires on it"), but removing swaybars on a vehicle driven on the public roadway shows a lack of respect for the well being of others sharing that roadway. People like our wives, our friends, our daughters, etc. I urge anyone considering this to learn a bit about vehicle dynamics to understand why this is such a completely bad decision.
Respectfully,
DougM
I haven't done any scientific testing but common sense tells me that under SEVERE emergency manuvers roll bars would help keep the vehicles tires on the ground, but I wonder under normal circumstances and minor to moderate manuvers if the lack of sway bars would be dangerous.
I drove a SAS Pathfinder with 12.5 inches of lift on Toyota mini axles on 38.5 bias ply swampers and NO sway bars and it was no fun on the street or at highway speeds, however offroad it really shined. So now I imagine my 80 with 5 or 6 inches of lift and 37" radials would seem like a piece of cake to drive in any conditions in comparison. That dosen't mean that it's safe though, and I think that is what we need to be aware of.
Almost everyone realizes that when you lift a vehicle (especially if the width remains the same) you increase your chance of a rollover. That's obvious since the COG is now higher and that is what causes a rollover to begin with. It's simply a matter of being very aware of this fact and not letting someone drive the vehicle who can't handle the added effort and stess that is involved in keeping it upright. In other words, don't let a woman drive it!
I drove a SAS Pathfinder with 12.5 inches of lift on Toyota mini axles on 38.5 bias ply swampers and NO sway bars and it was no fun on the street or at highway speeds, however offroad it really shined. So now I imagine my 80 with 5 or 6 inches of lift and 37" radials would seem like a piece of cake to drive in any conditions in comparison. That dosen't mean that it's safe though, and I think that is what we need to be aware of.
Almost everyone realizes that when you lift a vehicle (especially if the width remains the same) you increase your chance of a rollover. That's obvious since the COG is now higher and that is what causes a rollover to begin with. It's simply a matter of being very aware of this fact and not letting someone drive the vehicle who can't handle the added effort and stess that is involved in keeping it upright. In other words, don't let a woman drive it!
I originally took out my swaybars a few years ago when I installed my first lift (2"). The 80 handled fine, yes it had a bit of body roll in the corners but you soon get used to it. I travelled many kilometres with this setup and pushed it hard under a variety of conditions. Even towing 3500kg boats at highway speeds.
But since I installed my 4" lift my spring rates aren't as evenly matched as the old 2" lift. The dynamics of the vehicle are completely different. I'm looking at refitting the swaybars at least as a temporary measure until I fix the spring rates. Even then I might keep the swaybars. It will depend on the offroad handling as well as the on road handling but it will definitely help.
What we need is a good rear sway diconnect system ( the fronts are easy ) or a aftermarket system similar to the Land Rover ACE system.
But since I installed my 4" lift my spring rates aren't as evenly matched as the old 2" lift. The dynamics of the vehicle are completely different. I'm looking at refitting the swaybars at least as a temporary measure until I fix the spring rates. Even then I might keep the swaybars. It will depend on the offroad handling as well as the on road handling but it will definitely help.
What we need is a good rear sway diconnect system ( the fronts are easy ) or a aftermarket system similar to the Land Rover ACE system.
Anyone have any experience with respect to possible lawsuits when (if) accident investigators or insurance companies discover sway bars have been removed? Not trying to be alarmist but it makes me think that it could, or has happened.
As a corollary to my previous post, I noticed a HUGE difference with the sway bars put back on my truck. I could feel the difference at parking lot speeds, and on the highway, even under normal driving conditions, an even bigger difference. Wouldn't it make more sense to just have a disconnect for off road stuff rather than risk driving around without bars at all on the road?
As a corollary to my previous post, I noticed a HUGE difference with the sway bars put back on my truck. I could feel the difference at parking lot speeds, and on the highway, even under normal driving conditions, an even bigger difference. Wouldn't it make more sense to just have a disconnect for off road stuff rather than risk driving around without bars at all on the road?
Disconnects are the way to go. We've just got to figure out a good way to do the rear.
A lot of 4wds come standard with disconnects from the factory (Nissan Patrols for eg.), and a lot of 4wds have some models with swaybars and some without (Land Rover Defenders).
I think the main thing is the spring rate, damping rate and geometry of the vehicle rather than the fitment of sway bars or not. Eighties have good geometry and if the springs and shocks are well matched it should be OK.
A lot of 4wds come standard with disconnects from the factory (Nissan Patrols for eg.), and a lot of 4wds have some models with swaybars and some without (Land Rover Defenders).
I think the main thing is the spring rate, damping rate and geometry of the vehicle rather than the fitment of sway bars or not. Eighties have good geometry and if the springs and shocks are well matched it should be OK.
It is common sense, any mods you make can/will make a difference on the vehicle. Especially lifts. I'm not saying mine handles NO different, as I know it does. Try it, get used to it...see if you want to do it or not.
I drive my 80 on the road much more than I take it off. I have purposely performed upgrades in a manner that recognizes that my vehicle is dual use. When I lifted it 4" I also upgraded to heavy duty sway bars, installed 1.25" wheel adapters for a 2.5" wider stance, and modified the stock camber. I have considered quick disconnects but haven't gone there as of yet.
My off road ability has been drastically increased but I have not lost streetability. In fact, it handles better after the mods (The Dueler M/Ts being the primary compromise although they are designed to handle on the street exceptionally well for mud tires). I will be interested to eventually experiment with disconnecting the sway bars at the trails but I wouldn't like the feel or idea of my vehicle feeling as if it could roll when I need or want to take evasive action at speed, on the street. Its dual use.
My off road ability has been drastically increased but I have not lost streetability. In fact, it handles better after the mods (The Dueler M/Ts being the primary compromise although they are designed to handle on the street exceptionally well for mud tires). I will be interested to eventually experiment with disconnecting the sway bars at the trails but I wouldn't like the feel or idea of my vehicle feeling as if it could roll when I need or want to take evasive action at speed, on the street. Its dual use.
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