Starter Trigger Wire Replacement

[cliffrdavis]

These old working and connections can be so tough to diagnose. Just a few weeks ago I was trying to figure out why my new LED cabin light wouldn’t work. Took the OEM switch apart - switch looked fine. Checked the contacts on the switch and they were all fine. However, the contact on the bulb side was dead. Somewhere in the connections there was a corroded contact. After spending 20 mins I said F* it and just bought a new switch. Connected it up and worked great.

 

[thenative1]

For those of you on the edge of your seat, wondering: will it start this morning?

No!

Same symptoms as before: in turning the key, there is ZERO activity. No accessories - radio, dash lights, etc. - come on at all. Only the "hot" items - headlights, interior lights, etc. - function.

Incredibly, I thought the ground (the one at the starter, labeled "c" in the FSM) was the answer. Yesterday, after removing it, cleaning the wire contacts and the frame contacts, the truck started up perfectly. She started up 11 separate times (I only drove it up and down the driveway being gun shy, for good reason, to take it out on the road). The last time I started it was 8:00 p.m. This morning at 7:05 a.m.? Dead.

There are many oddities to this gremlin. Among them: why does it start successfully many times after changing something and then won't start after sitting overnight? Is there some strange temperature issue?

So here is what I've done so far:

--> Replaced the starter;
--> Replaced the ignition core;
--> Replaced the ignition switch;
--> Removed/cleaned/re-installed the starter ground;
--> Installed a new starter pigtail to improve the connection;
--> Cleaned the - battery ground (today I'm going to remove it entirely and clean/re-install it);
--> Installed (but then removed) the relay solution as documented in this post;
--> Used the multimeter to confirm the battery is fully charged.

++Next Steps++
(1) Any suggestions are welcome;
(2) Going to check the other two (labeled "a" and "b" in the FSM) grounds. Presuming I can locate them, I will detach, clean, and reattach them;
(3) Use the multimeter to recheck power coming from the ignition via the black/white wire and then on to the starter via the black/red wire;
(4) Assess whether re-installing the relay solution will have an impact. I did it last week and it did not seem to help;
(5) I am getting a reconditioned NSS (Neutral Safety Switch) today. Am NOT going to install it until I've gathered more data.

Beyond that, I'm at a loss. This is very easily the high water mark (for me) of strange FJ62 repairs. All the other things I've done have been relatively straightforward and this one is vexing to say the least.

 

[Godwin]

When you replaced the starter did you go Toyota remanned or some non-OEM brand? Even if you did install a Toyota unit it would be worthwhile to pull it and check the installation of the contacts and plunger.

 

[thenative1]

When you replaced the starter did you go Toyota remanned or some non-OEM brand? Even if you did install a Toyota unit it would be worthwhile to pull it and check the installation of the contacts and plunger.

Thanks Jim. It's remanned Toyota from CruiserCorps (also have one from VintageTeqparts on the shelf). I think the plunger is good 'cause when I check it by wiring it hot straight to the pos battery cable, it runs/turns over fine. Will put "pulling it and checking contacts" on the list of things to try to chase this Gremlin down.

 

[cliffrdavis]

Thanks Jim. It's remanned Toyota from CruiserCorps (also have one from VintageTeqparts on the shelf). I think the plunger is good 'cause when I check it by wiring it hot straight to the pos battery cable, it runs/turns over fine. Will put "pulling it and checking contacts" on the list of things to try to chase this Gremlin down.

There is also a way to jump to the solenoid on the side of the starter to get it to engage. I haven't done this on a LC, but have on many other vehicles. It can help determine if the solenoid to the starter is getting power and it is not engaging or the solenoid is working perfectly every time so the issue is either amperage to the starter motor (sounds like you have ruled that out) or something upstream (NSS, ignition switch). From what I remember, if the solenoid doesn't engage the starter will not run - so the starter motor can be fine - but the solenoid isn't engaging so the starter will not run.

 

[cliffrdavis]

explanation of relay and how to diagnose. One thing to notice, he is using the word "solenoid" to describe a relay. In the US we say the ignition is a switch, the relay is the small box that makes a connection when 12V is applied from the ignition switch to apply it to another accessory (starter in this case), we state the "solenoid" is the engagement magnet/motor on the side of the starter. His terminology makes it a little more confusing but diagnosis and explanation are great.

 

[John McVicker]

Ok, a very good video. And basically it repeats @Godwin recommendation in post 12 of this thread.

It works…try it.

 

[Godwin]

Had starting problems with a FJ60 once and pulled the trigger wire, stuck a long piece of wire into that spot and would simply touch the end of the wire to the + on the battery. I ran like this for a couple of weeks before fixing the issue. Couple of things to keep in mind, make sure the transmission is in neutral, key must be on, and it's a real inconvenience having to open the hood each time to crank the motor.

 

[thenative1]

Morning all!

Thanks as always for all the suggestions. Reframing the question:

What would be the issue where the truck starts flawlessly one minute (like last night and this morning) and then have NO activity when the key is turned the next minute (no dash lights, no clicking, NOTHING)? And in between, ZERO has changed. Truck hasn’t moved, no work done on it, nothing beyond the sun setting and rising.

I am going to try and go through every possible ground wire today (I have already removed/cleaned/reinstalled the large ground wire off the starter as well as the one off the - battery terminal).

Beyond that, I’m somewhat at a loss of where to explore to find the issue. Slightly worried it’s some exposed wire in the wiring behind the dash.

Thanks!
E

 

[cliffrdavis]

Native -

More likely ignition switch or ground if you are getting NOTHING with on position.

Have you done the suggested test on the starter wire? Just make sure the negative on your test is on the battery ground to assure you don’t mess your results up. It will only take a few mins if you have a tester and someone to click switch while you are watching. That will divide the differential from switch side vs starter side.

It you have done the test and you are getting 12v to trigger wire after multiple tests then it’s ground. The solenoid can prevent it from starting but shouldn’t eliminate other accessories from working.

 

[thenative1]

Thanks for the suggestion Cliff,

I will try that again. Just to make sure it’s not user error (read: me being an idiot), the “starter wire” is the wire that I’m 99% sure comes off the neutral safety switch into the solenoid that is on the side of the starter. From the FSM and in my car, that wire is black/red.

Presuming that’s correct, I have tested this with my multimeter and think (?) I confirmed that it’s getting 12V. But the ground I used was the ground off the side of the starter. Will try again once I have a second set of hands (when my son gets home from school) and use the ground off the neg. terminal of the battery.

Of COURSE throughout this, for the last three days it’s started without issue. I have not had the courage to drive it out of the driveway.

 

[cliffrdavis]

Any update on this? Did you find the gremlin?

 

[thenative1]

Oddly enough, it has (so far after approx. 50 consecutive starts) disappeared. I still don't have a concrete sense of what I did/didn't do to fix it. The last thing I did before it stabilized was remove the battery entirely, clean up the contacts/ground (which appeared perfectly clean with zero corrosion of any kind) and tied off the previous ground that was just floating around under the battery tray. So far, so good.

In news only related to Land Cruiser porn, took it down to the local detailer to get some sap/tree/leaf stains out. Removed the roof rack (exposing more than a decade's worth of stuck grime/stains) to allow the detailer proper access. What a job he did - I was thinking about investigating a paint job and after this, I have no need. It's not perfect but she cleans up NICE!

 

[Malleus]

There is s hidden gremlin in the 40/50/60 ignition switches: there is a cylindrical piece of babbit at the bottom of the keyhole. The way it's designed, the end of the key pushes it into contact with a switch contact below it. When it wears, it no longer makes contact with the switch below it.

Locksmiths used to compensate for this by adjusting the key blank in their machines so that the key was ever so slightly "in" the clamp position, making the key effectively longer so that it would make contact with the babbit pin when inserted into the keyhole. The dealership machine can allow for this, but almost no one there knows about this problem anymore.

This is a very hard problem to diagnose, because it is intermittent until the babbit pin develops a sufficiently deep pit that prevents the key from engaging. IT will look for all the world like it's a starter problem, until you've replaced every part in that circuit and then start looking elsewhere.

Unfortunately, there is no fix for this other than replacing the key cylinder.