Starter Issue??? (1 Viewer)

[pkh540]

I replaced my starter about 3 years ago so maybe it's something else. Thought I'd check here to see if anyone has an idea. Battery fully charged (I've left overnight on charger and have done this twice now just in case... Last time was about a week ago). Alternator is charging battery. Turn the key, dash lights and everything go on but starter doesn't engage. No clicking. Just doesn't turn engine over. I turn the key repeatedly and eventually the starter catches and it starts. Sometime is will only turn a engine bit and engine does not start but if I keep turning the key eventually it will start. This morning, I swear I must have turned the key 50 times before it started. Went to the store to pick something up and in the parking lot same thing happened. Brought it home and parked in the garage until I can figure out the issue.

185,000 miles
Replaced timing belt last month
Battery seems to be ok and again, happens even if fully charged so not issue with cranking amps (unless you know something I don't?).

 

[JunkCrzr89]

Sounds like starter.

 

[3_puppies]

any idea if it was a Toyota OE starter or just a generic auto store starter?

 

[2001LC]

1. Do the dash lights dim as you try to start (does not turn engine over). This can indicate either bad starter or weak voltage to it.
2. Does the security light go off as key inserted and stays off with key in IG.
3. Did you check battery voltage with multimeter both from battery posts and from positive clamp and a ground (not touching tester to post). You should have better than 12.7v and the same from all test points. If not, the issue is like oxidation on clamp & post or loose clamps or both.
4. Are battery post clean, greased ( I use white lithium grease after clean post and clamps, to retard oxidation) and clamps sung (do not over tighten)
5. Any chance you even touch the gear shifter, and then it started. Next time it does not start, try shifting to N and then see if starts. Also try slamming back to P from N and try starting again. If you can repeat this consistently, likely neutral swatch issue.

In non VVT engine. It possible to see starter through intake manifold. If all above checks-out as it should. Next "no start". Use a steel rod (should be one in tool kit (chrome hub cap remover)). Tap on starter (care must be taken too tap on metal of starter, not plastic) with steel rod. This can vibrate starter contact washers. By vibrating (which repeatedly turning on key can do also), the contact washer(s) may move a little. They then often, hit a good spot on contact and starts. This is a sure sign contact need replacing.

Tip:
Reset contact of all rebuilt starters, before install. All to often, rebuilders do not properly set contacts.

 

[pkh540]

any idea if it was a Toyota OE starter or just a generic auto store starter?

Bought it from my local Toyota dealer…

 

[KFunk740]

Have you load tested the battery? Just having a full charge with the proper voltage sometimes isn't enough, and it just doesn't put out enough amps. You have to hook it up to a load tester. I've had a few fail that way in other vehicles, sit on the battery tender for days, measure 12V, and not enough balls to turn the engine over. A parts store can do a load test, but I just bought my own load tester for like 30 bucks and check all my batteries occasionally.

 

[pkh540]

1. Do the dash lights dim as you try to start (does not turn engine over). This can indicate either bad starter or weak voltage to it.
2. Does the security light go off as key inserted and stays off with key in IG.
3. Did you check battery voltage with multimeter both from battery posts and from positive clamp and a ground (not touching tester to post). You should have better than 12.7v and the same from all test points. If not, the issue is like oxidation on clamp & post or loose clamps or both.
4. Are battery post clean, greased ( I use white lithium grease after clean post and clamps, to retard oxidation) and clamps sung (do not over tighten)
5. Any chance you even touch the gear shifter, and then it started. Next time it does not start, try shifting to N and then see if starts. Also try slamming back to P from N and try starting again. If you can repeat this consistently, likely neutral swatch issue.

In non VVT engine. It possible to see starter through intake manifold. If all above checks-out as it should. Next "no start". Use a steel rod (should be one in tool kit (chrome hub cap remover)). Tap on starter (care must be taken too tap on metal of starter, not plastic) with steel rod. This can vibrate starter contact washers. By vibrating (which repeatedly turning on key can do also), the contact washer(s) may move a little. They then often, hit a good spot on contact and starts. This is a sure sign contact need replacing.

Tip:
Reset contact of all rebuilt starters, before install. All to often, rebuilders do not properly set contacts.

Thanks for your advice!

No, lights do not dim when I try to start it.
Yes, security light goes off and stays off.
The voltage check showed a consistent 12.57 at multiple points. Battery may be low as I hadn’t recharged (trickle charger) after trying to start repeatedly. It’s on the charger now and will check again when it’s fully charged. I’ll likely get a new battery as this ones maybe 3 years old and as the wife and son frequently drive this vehicle (and cold weather looming) I’d rather they not have battery issues.
Tried starting in N but no luck.
Will try tapping the starter to see if that helps.

Again, sincerely appreciate your suggestions. Toyota parts closed on Sunday so I’ll likely spend tomorrow trying to hunt one down if nothing else works.

 

[pkh540]

Have you load tested the battery? Just having a full charge with the proper voltage sometimes isn't enough, and it just doesn't put out enough amps. You have to hook it up to a load tester. I've had a few fail that way in other vehicles, sit on the battery tender for days, measure 12V, and not enough balls to turn the engine over. A parts store can do a load test, but I just bought my own load tester for like 30 bucks and check all my batteries occasionally.

Haven’t load tested it but did try jumping it thinking that would help if low cranking amps but it didn’t help. May just replace battery anyways with winter around the corner.

 

[2001LC]

It does sound like your newish starter went bad. If tapping on starter does get it to work (which only works sometimes). Then it is a sure bet, start contact failed.

 

[OwnerCS]

Starter question for the group.

Over the past couple of weeks, my starter just doesn't spin the engine as fast it did over a month ago. It still starts the engine. It behaves more like starters behave with a weak battery. The battery is a 2-year old Interstate 24F. Volt testing at the battery is consistent 13v. The alternator Scanguage reading is 14.1 v immediately after starting then it settles down to the high 13s. Each day the starter seems to turn a little slower than the previous day.

Past experience with failing starters is they just fail to spin (require a tap) or will have a delayed response to when the starter switch is engaged before spinning.

I haven't experienced a weak starter losing spin RPMs since the days of 6v and foot petal starters on old GM trucks. I would like to get a jump on fixing this before it leaves me stranded somewhere. I have no idea if the starter has been replaced in the first 243,000 miles or if the starter is an original Denso. No history.

 

[2001LC]

I'd have battery load tested.
I'd also check voltage off positive clamp (away from post) and ground from engine block.
If load test good (max, or very near max), and voltage still same as on post as away from battery post; I would consider R&R starter.

Few other things to consider:

Long crank the norm, could be sign engine in need of a good tune.
If long crank the normal only after sitting a few hours. Could be fuel injector leak down excessive.
Long crank is hard on starters. As OAT drops going into winter., we notice the longer crank even more. Battery with weak load capacity, will have more issues come winter cold, especial in a long crank engine.

Consider oil viscosity and OAT. Here in CO winters, engine does noticeable crank slower on cold mornings. The lower the OAT the slower the crank.

I've had some 4.7L engines, tune so well and with new starter (Denso reman). They start so fast, seems like IG key sticking in crank position (starter hangs) just a moment after start. But even those engine will crank and start just a bit slower as OAT drops.

 

[OwnerCS]

I'd have battery load tested.
I'd also check voltage off positive clamp (away from post) and ground off engine block.
If load test good (max, or very near max), and voltage still same as on post as away from battery post; I would consider R&R starter.

Few other things to consider:

Long crank the norm, could be sign engine in need of a good tune.
If long crank the normal only after sitting a few hours. Could be fuel injector leak down excessive.
Long crank is hard on starters. As OAT drops going into winter., we notice the longer crank even more. Battery with weak load capacity, will have more issues come winter cold, especial in a long crank engine.

Consider oil viscosity and OAT. Here in CO winters, engine does noticeable crank slower on cold mornings. The lower the OAT the slower the crank.

I've had some 4.7L engines, tune so well and with new starter (Denso reman). They start so fast, seems like IG key sticking in crank position (starter hangs) just a moment after start. But even those engine will crank and start just a bit slower as OAT drops.

Good things to check. Thank you.

 

[RoderickGI]

1. Do the dash lights dim as you try to start (does not turn engine over). This can indicate either bad starter or weak voltage to it.
2. Does the security light go off as key inserted and stays off with key in IG.
3. Did you check battery voltage with multimeter both from battery posts and from positive clamp and a ground (not touching tester to post). You should have better than 12.7v and the same from all test points. If not, the issue is like oxidation on clamp & post or loose clamps or both.
4. Are battery post clean, greased ( I use white lithium grease after clean post and clamps, to retard oxidation) and clamps sung (do not over tighten)
5. Any chance you even touch the gear shifter, and then it started. Next time it does not start, try shifting to N and then see if starts. Also try slamming back to P from N and try starting again. If you can repeat this consistently, likely neutral swatch issue.

In non VVT engine. It possible to see starter through intake manifold. If all above checks-out as it should. Next "no start". Use a steel rod (should be one in tool kit (chrome hub cap remover)). Tap on starter (care must be taken too tap on metal of starter, not plastic) with steel rod. This can vibrate starter contact washers. By vibrating (which repeatedly turning on key can do also), the contact washer(s) may move a little. They then often, hit a good spot on contact and starts. This is a sure sign contact need replacing.

Tip:
Reset contact of all rebuilt starters, before install. All to often, rebuilders do not properly set contacts.

I think I have a bad Neutral Switch then.

1. The lights do dim a bit when I turn the key to the start position. But the main battery holds 12.5 volts overnight, sitting on 12.8 after a charge or drive. Load tested as good. Voltage from battery terminal to engine block is the same as across the terminals, 12.8 volts. I have a dual battery system installed, and when the problem occurs using jump leads between the two batteries doesn't help. The starter spins the engine just fine when the problem doesn't occur. Charging overnight does sometimes help, but not always. Lately, not really at all.
2. Security light goes off with key in ignition. So not the immobiliser. Besides, engine doesn't turn over. (Tries. More on that below.)
3. As above, voltage good enough.
4. Good clean connection. Engine earth seems good.
5. This. When the problem happens I have been able to get the engine to turn over, and it starts, when jamming the gear shift hard into Park, or just moving it back and forth a few times. Engine won't turn over in either Park or Neutral... until it does. I found that pressing the lock button on the gear shift helped a few times, but not so much now.

The differences in my situation:
A. The starter solenoid clicks just fine, and I can hear the starter gear engaging. The starter motor seems to try to turn over the engine, and sometimes will just a very little bit, but doesn't continue... until it does. This would indicate weak power at the starter. I guess there could be a bad earth at the starter, if it isn't via the engine block.
B. After warming the engine restarts seem to work fine. I commute half an hour morning and night, and usually I can start the car after 9 hours at work. Getting harder though.
C. Leaving the key turned on for a while seems to help a little. I can hear all the start up noises such as fuel and power steering pump, but still hear a slight whine that continues after that.

Note that the gear position lights in the dash all show the correct gear position. So the car knows what gear it is in, and won't try to start in R, D, 2, or 1.
Also, the charging voltage from the alternator is 14.25 volts, battery terminal to engine block. Same across battery terminals.

So, while I think my battery (2 years old) may be a little weak, something isn't getting enough power, or maybe something is stealing power from the starter for some time, and only when that process finishes the starter gets enough power to crank the engine.

But the "wiggle the gear shift and it works" thing certainly points to the Neutral Switch. Would the starter solenoid engage if the Neutral Switch was bad, or on the way out?

Comments?

 

[2001LC]

"1. The lights do dim a bit when I turn the key to the start position."

This indicates starter engaging, and either weak battery or bad starter.

"A. The starter solenoid clicks just fine, and I can hear the starter gear engaging. The starter motor seems to try to turn over the engine, and sometimes will just a very little bit, but doesn't continue... until it does. This would indicate weak power at the starter. I guess there could be a bad earth at the starter, if it isn't via the engine block."

If your starter motor indeed turns over engine ((cranks), which is crank shaft turning)) "a very little bit" and voltage good at those times. Sure it could be weak ground at starter. But this is likely starter going bad. Sluggish cranking (slow crank) is mostly associated with weak battery. Which a load test should reveal. If battery fails load test, replace it. But if battery good and voltage good at times of no start, this would point to the starter failing.

Starter will not engage, and engine will not turn over "a very little bit". If neutral switch does not give signal it's in P or N. It's like and on or off switch, nothing in between. Just like if in D, nothing will happen. It may just be a coincidence it starts, when you wiggle shifter/button.

Most times, it is the contacts & Plunger of starter solenoid not making good contact, due to wear. So voltage does not get to motor of starter. But sometimes other parts of starter fail.

This starter below was sometimes starting, other times not. The vehicle had a remote starter FOB. I suspect at times, FOB start button pushed after engine started. But it could have been, just a starter failure. Anyway, condition intermittent for years, and getting worst (more frequent no start reported). It's contacts and plunger washer were okay.

Starter gear drive bearings and locking snap ring falling apart.

BTW: In the 100 series 4.7L 2UZ. The motor you hear running when key turned to ON, is brake booster motor. Fuel pump motor will not run, unless engine cranking.

 

[RoderickGI]

Thanks for the excellent response. My take aways from that are:

1. It is unlikely to be the Neutral Switch, because the P & N gear position lights are shown on the dash correctly, and the Lexus doesn't attempt a start in other gear positions.
2. As the starter does spin the motor easily once it works, it could be bad contacts limiting power to the motor rather than a failing starter motor. In which case tapping the starter may help if I get stuck somewhere. Maybe wriggling the gear shifter was enough to achieve the same result previously.
3. It could just be a bad earth to the starter.

So, is there a separate earth wire for the starter? If so, where is it? If I can get to it and clean it that would eliminate that possible cause.

Changing the starter isn't a job I am willing to do at home, given its position. So that would be a shop job, which I might not be able to get done immediately.

I appreciate the help.

 

[RoderickGI]

So with help of YouTube I found out that the earth cable for the starter is right next to the starter under the intake manifold. :-(

But I also got a better idea of the location of the starter solenoid, took off the plastic engine cover, and with the perfect iron bar I can tap the solenoid a few times and the starter works!

I also worked out how to load test the battery by myself, with a volt meter on extended cables sitting on the windshield, facing in. The battery does drop as low as 10.95 volts while cranking. Sometimes only down to 11.5 volts. If it dropped to 10.5 volts I would get a new battery.

So that is pretty conclusive to me. The problem is bad contacts in the solenoid. The battery is fine, or at least good enough. I'm now much more confident I'm not going to be stuck away from home somewhere with a Lexus I can't start. I just need to tap, tap, tap!

Seriously though, thanks for the advice 2001LC.

 

[2001LC]

So with help of YouTube I found out that the earth cable for the starter is right next to the starter under the intake manifold. :-(

But I also got a better idea of the location of the starter solenoid, took off the plastic engine cover, and with the perfect iron bar I can tap the solenoid a few times and the starter works!

I also worked out how to load test the battery by myself, with a volt meter on extended cables sitting on the windshield, facing in. The battery does drop as low as 10.95 volts while cranking. Sometimes only down to 11.5 volts. If it dropped to 10.5 volts I would get a new battery.

So that is pretty conclusive to me. The problem is bad contacts in the solenoid. The battery is fine, or at least good enough. I'm now much more confident I'm not going to be stuck away from home somewhere with a Lexus I can't start. I just need to tap, tap, tap!

Seriously though, thanks for the advice 2001LC.

"TAP TAP TAP" engaging starter, is a sure bet the starter bad. This "TAP" trick only works for awhile. So don't wait to long!

Tips:

Clean the top of engine. Pay special attention to area between intake manifold and heads.
(I clean with a high pressure (HP) washer, beginning while engine cool. I start engine while washing and continue washing while engine idles. I do this with vehicle front higher than rear. In this attitude, the water entering the engine valley where stater resides, will drain out valley's rear drains holes. I then use "HP air" to blow dry water away and any remaining sand/grim/grit.)

I use Toyota OEM or Denso remanufactured.

Remanufactured starters, should have contacts reseated. (Sometimes rebuilder doesn't seat contacts fully!)

 

[RoderickGI]

Good advice about the cleaning.

I'm having a new starter fitted tomorrow. My mechanic in Australia says he hasn't used a rebuilt starter in years. It will be an "OEM Standard" starter, Denso or another brand he mentioned. He is a good, honest mechanic.

I did some tap-tapping on Sunday and it started well Sunday going out and coming home, on Monday morning and night, and Tuesday morning. Then struggled on Tuesday night. I'm living on a knife-edge!

 

[RoderickGI]

So the new starter was installed Thursday last week. No issues since.

In fact, I'm thinking I probably changed batteries a couple of times in the last six years that could have lasted longer, had the starter worked better. Live and learn.