In case anyone is searching for the VIN:
JTJHY7AX6D4094929
JTJHY7AX6D4094929
Sold my 100, bought 200... now facing two severe issues?
- Thread starter HGB
- Start date
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That is one nice truck, and I am no fan of pick ups. Very nicely done.
Wow, absolutely ludicrous. Is this the same dealership that sold you the truck? I noticed in the carfax there was damage on 8/14. You think all the trouble you had was related to this "damage?"
If you don't mind, I figure I copy and paste the VIN number as reference, in case this listing is sold.
JTJHY7AX6D4094929
I have a 2000 landcruiser that I do all my own work on, shorter intervals than Lexus using Mobil 1. I keep records for everything and have had the water pump SERP belt changed twice (car has 210k) at a mechanic that would run circles around any dealer mechanic.
How would you treat a car like mine? Curious?
I had a 100 series already, not looking for another one. A 2000 100 series with 210k is worth what $6-$8k? If I was looking for a 100 I'd buy a well cared for example from an enthusiast in a heartbeat.
Thank you.
BTW ... There are a lot of unscrupulous dealers out there and i am not surprised the car is now back on the market at the same store that sold it to you. You can be certain they knew about the transmission before they sold it to you. Next time they will probably have the buyer sign all sorts of disclaimers and as - is paperwork and someone will likely get stuck with it. Be careful out there and don't forget you're spending $30-$50k. Many times the $500 plane ticket cost is money well spent when laying down that type of coin.
I agree everyone should have someone test drive before purchasing. CarMax and AutoNation will ship a vehicle nationally if you find one you like, so if you can't fly there you just need to commit to the transportation cost to get it to your local dealer. IT sucks but there are scummy dealers out there.
FWIW I bought my truck from AutoNation, sight unseen but it was CPO. They shipped it from Houston to Chicago. I had to make a non-refundable deposit to cover transport. But, I did not have to buy the truck first, just make a deposit, so I had a good opportunity to check it over and test drive it before I signed the papers - and if the truck had been misrepresented I would've made a case for the deposit as well. In my case it worked out well because the windshield had a couple cracks, it was missing the second set of keys and the rear headphones, so the dealer fixed it and threw them in whereas if I'd paid first I would've likely heard it was "as is" and not covered by the CPO warranty and would have had to deal with it myself.
@HGB - I bet the dealer took that 570 on trade at a point high enough to make a deal work on a new Ford. Now with those numbers they'd lose money on the deal sending it to auction so they're listing it again in hopes it will sell... which is no less dishonest, but such is the nature of the shell game these dealers play.
I just traded in my 2015 200 for a 2017 and I was surprised at how little margin there was between what they listed and what I traded it in. I didn't get the impression that there was a lot of margin on the 2017 either.
I bought a used BMW 330i from a dealer in Dallas about 10 years ago. No, it wasn't the same dealer- although I checked because the story sounds so familiar. I DID fly down there and picked it up. All was well on the drive back, and about a month later the torque converter would randomly lock and unlock between 60-65 mph. No recourse whatsoever. I negotiated to trade it in for an Audi S4 and asked the new dealer what they planned to do with it. The dealer: "It's Iowa in the middle of winter, we're not paying for floor plan financing on a RWD "sports" car that will sit here until May." Sure enough, by the time I had all the paperwork done and the S4 was detailed, I saw them loading the 330 onto a transporter. I was relieved, but any check would yield dealer service records re: the problem.
The dealer games are absolutely crazy these days. People talk about the auto-finance bubble, and I think it's underestimated and understated. Again, not in the industry, but my personal belief is that there is a lot of funny-money and shell games with deals in dealerships and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them - and I'm talking big, legit GM/Ford/Toyota/etc dealers - are one bad 6 month stretch away from turning out the lights.
The Reagor-Dykes saga playing out in Lubbock is absolutely wild. There's tons of articles about it, but here's one that summarizes the timeline and the eye-popping numbers. Reagor-Dykes Auto Group bankruptcy timeline
I just traded in my 2015 200 for a 2017 and I was surprised at how little margin there was between what they listed and what I traded it in. I didn't get the impression that there was a lot of margin on the 2017 either.
I bought a used BMW 330i from a dealer in Dallas about 10 years ago. No, it wasn't the same dealer- although I checked because the story sounds so familiar. I DID fly down there and picked it up. All was well on the drive back, and about a month later the torque converter would randomly lock and unlock between 60-65 mph. No recourse whatsoever. I negotiated to trade it in for an Audi S4 and asked the new dealer what they planned to do with it. The dealer: "It's Iowa in the middle of winter, we're not paying for floor plan financing on a RWD "sports" car that will sit here until May." Sure enough, by the time I had all the paperwork done and the S4 was detailed, I saw them loading the 330 onto a transporter. I was relieved, but any check would yield dealer service records re: the problem.
The dealer games are absolutely crazy these days. People talk about the auto-finance bubble, and I think it's underestimated and understated. Again, not in the industry, but my personal belief is that there is a lot of funny-money and shell games with deals in dealerships and I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of them - and I'm talking big, legit GM/Ford/Toyota/etc dealers - are one bad 6 month stretch away from turning out the lights.
The Reagor-Dykes saga playing out in Lubbock is absolutely wild. There's tons of articles about it, but here's one that summarizes the timeline and the eye-popping numbers. Reagor-Dykes Auto Group bankruptcy timeline
- Thread starter
- #71
Very thoughtful, insightful post with a lot of points I'd like to address, but it's near midnight here and I wanted to give you a quick reply. I agree they likely overpaid on trade, BUT they listed the truck at 34,500 when I bought it and I offered them 30,000 and the salesman took it without even having to run it by the manager. MMR Manheim auction price for this truck (I have access to log-in and check) is 32,000. He could make more than he sold it to me for at auction, which is why I think he even agreed to buy it back from me... Now I think they're just being greedy trying to squeeze out an extra thousand.
I'm going to read this article you linked now before bed. I haven't heard of this dealership as I live outside of Texas, but it sounds interesting nonetheless.
What do you think these dealers are doing that they might be running so heavy/leveraged that they might not be able to withstand a rough patch?
Interesting stuff!
32cls6speedmt
SILVER Star
I am impressed that you were able to get the dealership to take it the vehicle back. You are a masterful negotiator since most used car transactions are final. I am also beyond surprised that the Toyota Dealership missed the transmission issue. I wonder if the ford dealership and toyota dealership are friendly to each other. Sounds like a night mare that gladly it is over for you.
@mooneywa. I agree with you that margins are razor thin in the used car and new car markets on brands that highly competitive. The cash cow of the dealership these days is the service department. Billing rate of mechanics in my area is $150 a hour for lexus and $135 for Toyota. Most dealerships bill book rate as opposed to real time. So a break job takes a master tech about 30 minutes and it is billed out at one hour. Of course, service advisor gets commissioned. Mechanics are typically are on commission as well.
Based on the photos of the lx, the interior looks great but photos can be deceiving. $30,000 was a great price. I would have been very happy with that price. I think they were aware with the issues so they found the perfect customer in someone who was out of state.
I looked up the history on the lexus owners site and it seems like it has had persistent radio issue. Radio was replaced. At least, lexus dealership in kansas city noted it needed torque convertor and transmission so the next person is warned.
If the transmission is the only issue it still might be a good deal for someone. If one can buy it for $25,000.00. A used transmission is about $3,000 and lets say $1,000 for installing.
@mooneywa. I agree with you that margins are razor thin in the used car and new car markets on brands that highly competitive. The cash cow of the dealership these days is the service department. Billing rate of mechanics in my area is $150 a hour for lexus and $135 for Toyota. Most dealerships bill book rate as opposed to real time. So a break job takes a master tech about 30 minutes and it is billed out at one hour. Of course, service advisor gets commissioned. Mechanics are typically are on commission as well.
Based on the photos of the lx, the interior looks great but photos can be deceiving. $30,000 was a great price. I would have been very happy with that price. I think they were aware with the issues so they found the perfect customer in someone who was out of state.
I looked up the history on the lexus owners site and it seems like it has had persistent radio issue. Radio was replaced. At least, lexus dealership in kansas city noted it needed torque convertor and transmission so the next person is warned.
If the transmission is the only issue it still might be a good deal for someone. If one can buy it for $25,000.00. A used transmission is about $3,000 and lets say $1,000 for installing.
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@HGB So glad you were able to get (most) of your money back. For someone in the know, it is now listed on the Lexus drivers site under this vin that the service writer at Hendrick Lexus indicates recommended new torque converter and transmission. It also shows that you did take it in for a tranny flush which I assume had no effect on the shudder?
What is it with Houston and crooked/incompetent dealers?
I emailed a dealer this morning that had a lx570 on car gurus using a single stock photo, wrong color, wrong year.
When I asked him to I send me some pics he texts me three crappy exterior iPhone pics and tells me he can’t find keys.
I kid you not.
I emailed a dealer this morning that had a lx570 on car gurus using a single stock photo, wrong color, wrong year.
When I asked him to I send me some pics he texts me three crappy exterior iPhone pics and tells me he can’t find keys.
I kid you not.
Hard to say what the driving factor is, since I'm at best a fascinated reader about this, and at worst your average car buyer when it comes to dealer finance knowledge.
I think part of it is the immense costs to run a competitive dealer these days. While I was waiting to sign the docs on my '17 I made a note of all the costs the dealer I was at had that I just simply saw:
1) Land costs, which aren't cheap since the dealer likely has to be in a high visible (aka highly priced) area
2) Building costs - I can't remember the last time I visited a dealership that looked more than 10 years old
3) All the labor on the sales side: salesmen and their base salaries, the finance people, the secretaries, the runners
4) Advertising: not just billboards, but radios, and the immense internet costs - not to mention the dealers that have a D list celebrity spokesperson
5) Then the little stuff - I had them take out the scratches on the door and they used a contracted company, they have another company that power washes every car almost every other day, someone to cut the grass, someone to replace lightbulbs...
Then you have the revenue streams:
1) Sale price of the car - maybe you drop below invoice to get the sale done, sure there's holdback, but now you're having to turn a LOT of cars to cover above costs
2) Sale price of the trade - seems risky and even sending it to auction isn't a guaranteed number
3) Money made on financing - I have a fantastic credit score and was quoted over 5% APR. I know the dealer is getting a kickback on this, and that kickback will disappear when the vehicle is paid in full before the first payment is due. But that's probably a rare case, I overheard lots of haggling over negative equity and high rates one office over. I think this probably is the bulk of the money made and perhaps the least risky. Your typical big dealer isn't a buy here/pay here... they send the note to the bank with a kickback and it's out of their hands.
4) Warranties, nitrogen in the tires, ceramic coating, security etching, and tons and tons of made up nonsense that I either make them take off or walk away from the deal
But again with all this money moving in and and out, combined with everything being commission based, there's a lot of incentive to pull some funny business at worst or at best, press for some deals that may end up being money losers. If your dealer is built around high volume, which it seems like so many are these days, I can't imagine that a hiccup in the economy that causes fewer buyers to walk through the door, or tightening credit that keeps lower qualified folks from buying, or both doesn't cause a major derailment. It just seems like day trading actual wares and in fact if you replace some of the terms here with what people were doing with mortgage back securities in '08 and the associated tranches, it's not really far off.
Again, all speculation. I'm sure someone who is well versed in dealer-workings can correct a lot of this, but I'd suspect I'm not outrageously far off.
Agreed completely... the service department is where it's at. I've railed about lots of nonsense here that they pull, especially the "shop fee". YGBSM. I'm sorry I wasn't paying enough for the service, now you tack on a 10% fee for nothing tangible? What a way to make money!
It's all so fascinating.
Hilarious... well hilariously awful anyways. I think the Houston job market is also so strong that if you have one ounce of good sales experience, you can likely make a lot more money in oil and gas or anything else that is big in this market. The salesman I had, which wasn't at a Toyota dealer, had 20+ years of sales experience and it showed. He knocked off the nonsense and we treated each other like gentlemen.
I'm sure the dealers could get better sales people but then the above referenced costs increase, and when most of your sales aren't high end SUVs it's not worth it to try and appeal to that crowd.
@HGB So glad you were able to get (most) of your money back. For someone in the know, it is now listed on the Lexus drivers site under this vin that the service writer at Hendrick Lexus indicates recommended new torque converter and transmission. It also shows that you did take it in for a tranny flush which I assume had no effect on the shudder?
Any idea on the cause of the issues with the torque converter and transmission? Seem very unusual for this happen on a LX570 and the first time I've heard about it on such a typically very reliable vehicle.
- Thread starter
- #78
Docboy, I wish. I was just as surprised as anyone. I have never heard of something so serious, especially at 5 years old and with only 113K miles. I am not weary of buying another high mileage LX (or even higher) as I've heard of friends that have had 200's in the 200K+ club with no real issues besides suspension and other wear items.
32cls6speedmt
SILVER Star
Mike Jackson Ceo of autonation was fantastic of explaining the car business. They are publicly traded so his earning calls were fantastic. His interviews in Barrons and CNBC gave me a lot of insight into the car business. Profit margins are razor thin when you factor all items you listed. Gross profit margin is 15.76 percent. Net profit margin is 1.89 %.
I am not affiliated with carvana. But they have a unique system of no retail space and/or showroom. They are in expansion phase and have negative earnings. Their main selling pitch is simplicity and honesty. You can keep the car for seven days and/or less 500 miles, if you don't like it you can return and no questions asked..money back. They will even pick up the car from your office and/or home.
I am not affiliated with carvana. But they have a unique system of no retail space and/or showroom. They are in expansion phase and have negative earnings. Their main selling pitch is simplicity and honesty. You can keep the car for seven days and/or less 500 miles, if you don't like it you can return and no questions asked..money back. They will even pick up the car from your office and/or home.
