very nice Glenn! Kelowna is soo nice. Wish the wife would move. Never do an 8' wide door. they suck! I have a 9' wide and even its tight once you put mirrors and stuff in the way. I would keep the air lines surface mount. KMS carries a kit that you can run drops where ever you want. An air leak in a wall would suck!
Shop 'Build' for 2014
- Thread starter Glenn-BJ74
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Very nice property!
Sorry Mat did not mean to make it seem like I was picking on your comments. When I think steel prefab I think of those half Egg shaped structures that you see on Farms. The ones that you have posted look good.
Sorry Mat did not mean to make it seem like I was picking on your comments. When I think steel prefab I think of those half Egg shaped structures that you see on Farms. The ones that you have posted look good.
Hi Glen..
I built a 800 sqft garage in north van a few years ago... I was allowed 800 sqft and 15 ft to the peak. things I did that I would do again...
1. hip roof. allowed me to have two trusses that were designed for 2000lb point load. good for hoisting things.
2. extra wide door. my door is 18ft wide by 9 ft high, no chain, very quiet. means you can get the cars in with out having to lose space between the wall and the opening.
3. gas heater. works very well, heats up in no time. but does produce hot and cold areas.
4. large overhand on the roof. keep the rain away form doors and windows.
5. 200 amp service.
6. what you really need to do is park your trucks on the grass, draw a box around them for all the space you want to have, then figure out what that is, that space less 800 sqft will be attached to the side of the garage... see pictures it makes more sense.
7. most important!!! have a free span for the door. I put in a very large paralam beam so I can have a 18ft wide opening. that way there is no post in the middle of the garage.
8. you must have water and a sink, also if you can a 2" sanitary draing if possible.
THINGS YOU DONT WANT TO DO....
1. scissor truss...they do not get you anymore usable space, and you can not hoist of them. use a standand trus with the smallest pitch allowed. I have about 11 ft of wall height. and have two trusses that can hoist 2000lbs.
2. gas heater.. good and bad, in floor heating in think I would do , the only plus with the gas is the heat is almost instant, but you cant paint in that garage with the open flame heating system....
3. don't bother plumbing lines in the walls, with 800 sq ft you only need a few lines and you have total coverage.
4. put a hose bib outside...
5. GET TH BIGGEST DOORS YOU CAN... I have two, 18ftx9 and 10ft x 8
6.let me stress this again.... free span the opening on the big door!!!!
I built a 800 sqft garage in north van a few years ago... I was allowed 800 sqft and 15 ft to the peak. things I did that I would do again...
1. hip roof. allowed me to have two trusses that were designed for 2000lb point load. good for hoisting things.
2. extra wide door. my door is 18ft wide by 9 ft high, no chain, very quiet. means you can get the cars in with out having to lose space between the wall and the opening.
3. gas heater. works very well, heats up in no time. but does produce hot and cold areas.
4. large overhand on the roof. keep the rain away form doors and windows.
5. 200 amp service.
6. what you really need to do is park your trucks on the grass, draw a box around them for all the space you want to have, then figure out what that is, that space less 800 sqft will be attached to the side of the garage... see pictures it makes more sense.
7. most important!!! have a free span for the door. I put in a very large paralam beam so I can have a 18ft wide opening. that way there is no post in the middle of the garage.
8. you must have water and a sink, also if you can a 2" sanitary draing if possible.
THINGS YOU DONT WANT TO DO....
1. scissor truss...they do not get you anymore usable space, and you can not hoist of them. use a standand trus with the smallest pitch allowed. I have about 11 ft of wall height. and have two trusses that can hoist 2000lbs.
2. gas heater.. good and bad, in floor heating in think I would do , the only plus with the gas is the heat is almost instant, but you cant paint in that garage with the open flame heating system....
3. don't bother plumbing lines in the walls, with 800 sq ft you only need a few lines and you have total coverage.
4. put a hose bib outside...
5. GET TH BIGGEST DOORS YOU CAN... I have two, 18ftx9 and 10ft x 8
6.let me stress this again.... free span the opening on the big door!!!!
also.... if you can find the funds.... epoxy the floor.... do not use rona or home depot paint. I used two part Sherwin-Williams paint, cost $500 for two gallons. needed 4 gallons... but it is worth it.. the floor has stood up to everything...
but you need to paint it right away, don't wait cause any oil will be a problem area...
also I did not have the concrete guys polish the floor, I left it a bit rough for slip protection and paint bondage..
but you need to paint it right away, don't wait cause any oil will be a problem area...
also I did not have the concrete guys polish the floor, I left it a bit rough for slip protection and paint bondage..
also... when you do the construction... rent on of these... they are easy to drive and work really really really well.....and are super fun..
- Thread starter
- #26
Thanks for all the good information - surface air lines - 10' door width - mulitple 220 v outlets, etc.
I intend to free span the entire width - I have posts now. The Kelowna snow loads designs are similar to Vancouver's because the snow is lighter - that influences truss design and cost.
If I go with 10' wide doors, as Chet recommends I am not sure why the 18' footwide door is an advantage?
I am trying for a maximum entry height (9' -10') and achieve 13' foot floor to ceiling height for a hoist - so whatever truss design that achieves - is what I will go with. And maybe with a metal roof to better shed snow.
I will have to look into the infloor radaint heating more - seems to be a consensus its the way to go.
I intend to free span the entire width - I have posts now. The Kelowna snow loads designs are similar to Vancouver's because the snow is lighter - that influences truss design and cost.
If I go with 10' wide doors, as Chet recommends I am not sure why the 18' footwide door is an advantage?
I am trying for a maximum entry height (9' -10') and achieve 13' foot floor to ceiling height for a hoist - so whatever truss design that achieves - is what I will go with. And maybe with a metal roof to better shed snow.
I will have to look into the infloor radaint heating more - seems to be a consensus its the way to go.
hi Glen.
im sorry , but I think I am not understanding you. are you putting in two 10ft wide doors, so would there not be a post in the middle between the doors? if so then would not a super wide door create an 18 ft wide opening , which would be not as wide as 2x 10 = 20, granted, but would give you a free space of 18ft? which I have found better than just a 10ft opening.
also forgot to mention, a few things..
1. my garage is turned sideways, so the doors are on the wide side of the garage.
2. I did the same thing truss wise as you I wanted the highest celling I could, I used the shallowest pitch and worked backwards, if I remember right its a 3/12 pitch I think. I was told the scissor trusses were not going to be good for hoisting.
I was able to hoist my engine and transmission form my 80 no problem. (although it was close)
3. if you only have 60 amps at the house you are going to have power issues. I had the same problem. I ended up making the garage panel the main panel, brought 200 amps to the garage and made the house a sub panel. can you do that there?
hope this helps.
scott
- Thread starter
- #28
Oh I see what you mean. I will check this out when I am in the design stage, but I could live with two 10' doors.
The Lifemaster LM3800 direct drive garagae door opener has been recommended via a PM - it gets rid of the center belt drive and overhead motor for higher internal clearances. It also has an automatic dead bolt.
I will look into that for sure.
The Lifemaster LM3800 direct drive garagae door opener has been recommended via a PM - it gets rid of the center belt drive and overhead motor for higher internal clearances. It also has an automatic dead bolt.
I will look into that for sure.
Magnetic start ballast are no longer sold, everything is electronic now, they will start in cold weather around here and are rated for 0 degrees. Flickering T12 tubes are a thing of the past. If you have high ceilings guys are giving away high bay metal halide lighting now through hydro's programs of upgrading to high bay flourescents, look on craigslist, the problem is they take 5 minutes to warm up and cool down, but awesome light!
Also 100 amps is more than enough for a shop where only one or two people will be working at the same time, it's all about demand. Things like electric furnaces, electric hot water tanks, multiple dryers, large amounts of baseboard heat, hot tubs, a/c, and heat pumps are what causes the need to upgrade. They run continuously. Unless you are a production shop all other loads are used so infrequently between the house and the shop you will still not average more than 100 amps, it's all about demand.
That said if upgrading the service you might as well go to 200 as in my opinion the price difference between 100 and 200 when you are already upgrading is usually small. If the electrical comes in from the rear or shop side you can bring 200 or 100amps into the shop first and with a sub feed lug kit run the same size into the house as well. So at anytime you can draw the full potential of the service form either panel while on average never drawing over the total together, if that makes sense.
Also 100 amps is more than enough for a shop where only one or two people will be working at the same time, it's all about demand. Things like electric furnaces, electric hot water tanks, multiple dryers, large amounts of baseboard heat, hot tubs, a/c, and heat pumps are what causes the need to upgrade. They run continuously. Unless you are a production shop all other loads are used so infrequently between the house and the shop you will still not average more than 100 amps, it's all about demand.
That said if upgrading the service you might as well go to 200 as in my opinion the price difference between 100 and 200 when you are already upgrading is usually small. If the electrical comes in from the rear or shop side you can bring 200 or 100amps into the shop first and with a sub feed lug kit run the same size into the house as well. So at anytime you can draw the full potential of the service form either panel while on average never drawing over the total together, if that makes sense.
A lot of people throw around "220 volts" like that's the important part. That means that you have at least two conductors in the wire going to the panel wired to two seperate breakers or one two pole breaker. First in residential the voltage will be close to 240 volts, not 220v. Second that while a lot of equipment will need 240 volts it's the amps that increase demand and wire size. For example in my father in law's shop the hoist is 30 amps at 240, the compressor is 30 amps at 240 volts and the welder is 30 amps at 240 volts. Everything else is typical 15 amp 120 volt plug in equipment.
Think of the voltage as the air pressure and the amperage as the flow. Just because you have the pressure for say an air die grinder doesn't mean you have the flow needed to use it efficiently. Amps is the amount of water behind the dam. More water/flow equals bigger pipes.
Think of the voltage as the air pressure and the amperage as the flow. Just because you have the pressure for say an air die grinder doesn't mean you have the flow needed to use it efficiently. Amps is the amount of water behind the dam. More water/flow equals bigger pipes.
- Thread starter
- #31
So what are the pros and cons of high bay metal halide lighting versus the newest fluorescent lights?
The lights will be on for extended periods of time, especially during the winter -- probably 40-60 hours a week. I’m in the Fortis electric service area - they have many rebates for both types.
The electric service comes from the front house side - so it look like I will have to upgarde the main 100 amp board to 200 amp and the 100 amp sub-panel at the rear of the house can feed the shop. But the hot tub load is off the reat 100 amp sub-panel. The hot tub should be on natural gas - I called hot tub suppliers - they never heard of natural gas hot tub heaters ? It so much cheaper -- I don't get it.
I appreciate your input.
By the way - I called Fortis and natural gas is roughly $8.50 per GJ in Kelowna versus about $14.50 per GJ on the Island !!
The lights will be on for extended periods of time, especially during the winter -- probably 40-60 hours a week. I’m in the Fortis electric service area - they have many rebates for both types.
The electric service comes from the front house side - so it look like I will have to upgarde the main 100 amp board to 200 amp and the 100 amp sub-panel at the rear of the house can feed the shop. But the hot tub load is off the reat 100 amp sub-panel. The hot tub should be on natural gas - I called hot tub suppliers - they never heard of natural gas hot tub heaters ? It so much cheaper -- I don't get it.
I appreciate your input.
By the way - I called Fortis and natural gas is roughly $8.50 per GJ in Kelowna versus about $14.50 per GJ on the Island !!
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Paid for your move right there. Oh and wood is free! (not sure if Kelowna has burning restrictions though)
The permit is free, but split wood stacked in the woodshed does have a cost. Mostly time in the woods, which is a good thing, especially when you aren't working. Planning to use primarily wood heat for house and days I'll be in the shop this winter. Assuming I get a few weekends to get enough cords together.
Glenn, I envy being able to custom build your shop to your own specs. I'm very happy to have the workshop I have but starting from scratch I'd do many things different. I wish my shop had 10' ceiling at least and more than a 7' tall door. I don't mind two bay doors though. Not sure I see the real advantage to a hoist in a hobby shop. Takes up space and limits storage/parking/workspace flexibility. Make sure you take into account storage space for non-shop related stuff and even just parts. Might not want to have just a seperate storage shed for that given the liklihood of black widows moving in out there.
I scanned the thread and can't remember how tall your ceilings are but the metal halide highbays that come up for cheap are usually 400 watts, not exactly energy efficient but can be had for $20 complete and can light a large area. So costly to use but initial savings on the product outweighs the power consumption. Downfall is they take a while to turn on and the ones you'll get for cheap need at least a 12 foot ceiling.
Standard florescents work well for lower ceilings..If I recall I pay about $60 for an 8 foot 4 lamp fixture (4 4 foot tubes), locate them above work areas and on walls (with lamp guards) around hoists.
The natural gas tubs I've seen have been old units or units that are remote from the tub mounted in a pool shed in conjunction with pool equipment. Seems most self contained tubs are electric and require 40 to 60 amps. I wouldn't worry about taking 100 amps off your 100 amp sub which also feeds your tub. Unless you plan on running a buisness out of the shop, for hobby tinkering you should be fine for power.
Oh and Jeff(enigma) your house panel is a 100amps not 60 amp. You have 2 100 amp panels now
Standard florescents work well for lower ceilings..If I recall I pay about $60 for an 8 foot 4 lamp fixture (4 4 foot tubes), locate them above work areas and on walls (with lamp guards) around hoists.
The natural gas tubs I've seen have been old units or units that are remote from the tub mounted in a pool shed in conjunction with pool equipment. Seems most self contained tubs are electric and require 40 to 60 amps. I wouldn't worry about taking 100 amps off your 100 amp sub which also feeds your tub. Unless you plan on running a buisness out of the shop, for hobby tinkering you should be fine for power.
Oh and Jeff(enigma) your house panel is a 100amps not 60 amp. You have 2 100 amp panels now
- Thread starter
- #36
Storage:
I hope to have 10' ceilings, which will allow me to have ceiling shelves - about a 3' drop, maybe 3' deep and the entire wall width whatever is required. I have them now with 9' celiings and they are incredible space savers, although I need a step ladder to access stuff. With 10' celings - this gives me 9 cubic feet of storage per linear foot of wall. Underneath could go the lights - which puts it close and directly above the benches along the wall.
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I've built a few shops and if your not roughing in a full bathroom and drians for sink by a window and hot water tank or hot water closet ( if your putting in water heated floors vs electric heated floors ). You might want to extend your search ideas further in the carriage house ,want ,need, must have list.. lots of gravel under your slab ,for water travel and freezing expansion,,mesh in concrete to tie your floor heating to,rebar to keep the slab together ,fiber in your concrete mix,minimiun 28 mpa concrete tensile strength, and trowel hardener in with a at least two licks with the power trowel . And for the people who want it all a floor vault is pretty simple to rough in. And sleeves in any open ditches should be a given. Can you run your gas heater for the tub from the shop too,nothing like free heat from the pilot, especially if there is a power outage. Sleeves are your friend for life.
- Thread starter
- #38
Thanks George - Sounds like there was a lot in there - just missed a bit of it ...
I can't put a carraige house in, although they are allowing it in higher density areas of Kelowna.
What is the fiber inthe concrete do ?
What is the floor vault?
What are these sleeves you speak of ?
The hot tub and shop are 50' away. Converting the hot tub to gas would reduces operating cost of the tub and free up 40-50 amps. I would like the infloor heating, but its get hot in Kelowna - and running small AC units could be be very costly - Many questions to be answered.
I can't put a carraige house in, although they are allowing it in higher density areas of Kelowna.
What is the fiber inthe concrete do ?
What is the floor vault?
What are these sleeves you speak of ?
The hot tub and shop are 50' away. Converting the hot tub to gas would reduces operating cost of the tub and free up 40-50 amps. I would like the infloor heating, but its get hot in Kelowna - and running small AC units could be be very costly - Many questions to be answered.
For heating and cooling could you not set up a heat pump for the shop and house (have no idea how they work). But if you could use one heat pump for both the house and the shop that would provide cooling in the summer and heat in the winter it maybe a win win. With the cheaper cost of gas up there it maybe an option. I have just been house sitting a friends place with one and its nice waking into a dry 22c house. Just a thought, no idea how they work.
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Carriage house layout roughed in is all you need to do ,minimum cost for big potential return down the road. Fiber is a fiberglass hair like bonding material you can put in the mix for strength,better than mesh I figure. Cheaper to put it in the truck than to order it in the load. Running a few zones of in floor water pipe for heat is cheap too. Sleeves are PVC or whatever pipe you put in under or through something ,so you can fish something through it later(AC,gas, low volt ,cable ,cat ,phone speakers ,water ,etc). A vault is a vault ,just a pit or even just a cut out framed for an access door,can be any size even gaining access to the whole underneath the slab if you build a suspended or monolithic slab.