Riding in Neutral

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate
links, including eBay, Amazon, Skimlinks, and others.

Joined
Apr 25, 2005
Threads
87
Messages
614
Location
Bean Station, TN
My wife is now a mpg nazi (if anyone driving a cruiser can be) and she is watching the mpg display on the nav system nonstop. She is trying to get to 19 mpg average for a whole tank on her daily commute route. I could tell more stories, but I will cut to the question:

At the top of a really long grade on her way home - the Andrade grade, for those of you in the bay area - she puts the car in neutral and coasts with traffic for maybe 2 or 3 miles down the hill. She asked me the other day if this was bad for the car. Any thoughts?

I know that if the car stalled it would be a really bad thing, but there seems to be very little likelihood of this in a new LC 100.

Thanks.
 
My wife is now a mpg nazi (if anyone driving a cruiser can be) and she is watching the mpg display on the nav system nonstop. She is trying to get to 19 mpg average for a whole tank on her daily commute route. I could tell more stories, but I will cut to the question:

At the top of a really long grade on her way home - the Andrade grade, for those of you in the bay area - she puts the car in neutral and coasts with traffic for maybe 2 or 3 miles down the hill. She asked me the other day if this was bad for the car. Any thoughts?

I know that if the car stalled it would be a really bad thing, but there seems to be very little likelihood of this in a new LC 100.

Thanks.


I think it is against the law #1...
 
I am not sure how the oil in the transmission is pumped around, and whether all the rotating components of the transmission when driven via the driveshafts instead of the engine are lubricated, without a gear selected. This is one for the experts to answer.
However in the event one needs to suddenly accellerate to avoid a collision or something, the need to select a gear first takes time and reaction skills. Although this is an unlikely scenario, I personally would leave the transmission in gear to be able to have full control of the vehicle in braking or accellaration at any moment. The difference in the amount of fuel consumed over that stretch would be negligible I expect. My .02
 
I think it is against the law #1...

I also think it is against the law, but could not explain why. When I found out it was against the law it made sense, since when driving an old corvair and putting the clutch in you could actually have a stall :)

Not sure about the transmission component lubrication either, good point to consider.

As for the consumption, for that mile or three the consumption goes down to more than 60 miles per gallon. Not sure about the overall effect, but I also think the aggregate effect is minimal.
 
It's unsafe. I'd leave it in overdrive. BTW, I push the crossbars on the roof rails all the way back...disturbs the air flow less, at least in theory, as it's already turbulent back there.

Other than safety, I don't know if there's anything wrong with having it in neutral. If it were a manual and you had the clutch pushed down, the stick in gear and coasting, you could blow up the clutch by exceeding its rated rpm.
 
most newer engines use no gas to keep spinning if in gear and if the foot is off the gas while the car is rolling. if you put the car in neutral, it uses gas to keep it at idle.

something ive heard

That's right. Every (modern) electronic injection car does that. If you roll down a hill just using the engine brake (shifting down to the adequate gear), it uses no gas at all. It is then the car (due to gravity and transmission) that keeps the engine running. But to roll down in neutral, fuel must be burned. Just tell your wife to try and she'll have a wide grin when she sees the mpg go to infinity and beyond ;)
 
Coasting in N for a couple of miles...definitely a safety hazard. If you need to accelerate quickly, you don't want to be fumbling to put it in gear - a fraction of a second can be the difference between avoiding an accident or being in one.

Also, if coasting in N, there is a possibility that you might accidently press the shift knob button and inadvertantly push it into Reverse. (Humans are creatures of habit, after all, and distractions lead to errors of habit.) That would be very bad news at highway speed.

And the tranny operating conditions...a good question - it might indeed be bad for the tranny, if done regularly.

Mileage difference is likely negiligible, especially for only a couple of miles per day. And as noted, if the engine controls actually cut the fuel while the engine is being overdriven by the tranny while coasting downhill, then coasting in N could actually use MORE fuel than coasting in D.

There ARE ways to increase fuel economy by practicing conservative driving habits, while maintaining the same commute times. But most people have neither the awareness, nor the patience, to do this.

(I'm getting 16+ to 18+ mpg, in mixed city/hwy driving, with my LX that is EPA rated at 13-16...and my average trip times are within a few percent of any other same-route trip times.)
 
Get her worrying about tire pressure and she will forget all about taking the vehicle out of gear. If she is just having fun to see how high she can get the mileage, it sounds like it is important to her and I would let it go!

Now I want to know, how steep is the grade and what is her highest attained speed in a LC glide?
 
both of the above are true,

Most electronic fuel injected cars (especially toyota) go into fuel cut in any decel condition. As long as there is a speed signal - vehicle is moving and no throttle the injectors are turned off to prevent backfire on decel. So she is actually using more gas by shifting into neutral. She could actually shift down into 2nd and the engine be at high rpm and still use no gas, still in fuel cut. Doesn't need to but could.

I'm pretty sure, along with the others, that it is illegal in most states to be in neutral down a hill.

If you really want information on how to achieve the best gas mileage I would be surfing the prius forums. The is a certain drive style, which most prius owners try do duplicate, and I can't remember what it is called of the top of my head. The gist of it is you accelerate up to whatever speed you are trying to maintain and float on and off the throttle when you get there. Never wide open, and plan as far in advance for any changes as conditions permit. The idea is you are on and off the throttle slightly and the fuel cut of being off the throttle ups the mileage. I've done it, not in the l/c, but in a prius and it works but it takes a little time to get the hang of it.

Hope this helps,
ben
 
My 100 series is 2000 so it doesn't have anything that tells me mileage but I do have an 04 4Runner that does. I have reset the mileage at the top on a long hill and watched the reading go up to 99 MPG and that was with the engine in gear. So I would have to say you are useing very little gas with it in gear. Besides I'd worry about the brakes wearing faster and maybe over heating. I would also think this might lead to warped rotors over shorter period of time. Which is a normal wear item and not covered under warranty. I always worry about safety first and having it in gear you have better control.

John
 
both of the above are true,

<snip>

If you really want information on how to achieve the best gas mileage I would be surfing the prius forums. The is a certain drive style, which most prius owners try do duplicate, and I can't remember what it is called of the top of my head. The gist of it is you accelerate up to whatever speed you are trying to maintain and float on and off the throttle when you get there. Never wide open, and plan as far in advance for any changes as conditions permit. The idea is you are on and off the throttle slightly and the fuel cut of being off the throttle ups the mileage. I've done it, not in the l/c, but in a prius and it works but it takes a little time to get the hang of it.

Hope this helps,
ben

Ah, a small essay follows. Couldn't resist. Pardon me.

A Prius is a hybrid, and the driving pattern to optimize fuel economy for a hybrid is different than that to optimize fuel economy for a conventional gasoline engine drivetrain.

For a conventional gasoline engine drivetrain vehicle like the 100, it's simple:

Assuming vehicle condition is correct (including tires/pressure), the ideal for max economy is constant, light loading, with constant speed about 50mph (depending on gearing and specific vehicle). If you could drive at a constant 50mph on an absolutely flat and straight road made of standard paving material like asphalt in excellent condition, with no ambient wind, you could get max mpg.

Anything that deviates from this - acceleration, deceleration, braking, stopping, turning, hills, headwinds/crosswinds, higher speeds, etc. - will reduce mileage.

So, what do most people do?

Accelerate strongly (inefficient region of engine combustion controls map, wastes fuel). Drive as fast as possible, exceeding speed limits and restrained by traffic (increased wind drag, dissipating an exponential increase in unit energy at speeds over 60mph). Repeatedly brake strongly for traffic, traffic signals, etc. - followed by strong acceleration again. And again. Again. Over and over. (Accelerating engine inefficiencies waste fuel, followed by wasting kinetic energy converted into brake wear and heat.)

The economical alternative?

Keep in mind that your trip time will not be significantly shorter if you drive aggressively. Any slight savings in trip time achieved from driving faster will be completely lost at the next red light.

Accelerate very gently. Try to maintain a constant moderate speed, in highest gear possible, at the speed limit or less, based on your anticipated slowdowns and stops ahead (rather than the speed limit and pushy impatient drivers.) Coast to slow down for planned slowdowns/stops at intersections, off ramps etc. (rather than cruising at speed until the last second and braking). Also, use gravity (instead of brakes) to help you slow down, if moving uphill and planning a slowdown/stop ahead. Watch way ahead for traffic slowdowns, impending red lights, etc. based on your experience with the lights patterns etc..coast to slow down for them, rather than use brakes. Try to avoid pumping extra energy into vehicle motion (kinetic energy) only to waste it in braking; stay off the brakes as much as possible, brake as gently as possible to avoid wasting kinetic energy in brake heat and wear.

(If you are careful, you will never need to brake strongly except for accident avoidance.)

ETC.

Driving this way will yield trip times within a few percent of the most aggressive driving style, but with fuel economy at least 10 to 20% better than "normal" driving style.

The red lights and other system constraints equalize net trip time of all same-route trips. Regardless of how you drive. Check it out, you will confirm it.

I've timed my trips so many times to compare driving methods, that the truth is 100% proven IMO: I can drive economically as described above and my trip times are about the same as the impatient folks who drive aggressively, wasting fuel and increasing wear & tear of their vehicles.

Of course, the impatient drivers behind you misinterpret the economical driving style as a sign that you are weak, and they react abusively - tailgating you, intentionally cutting too closely to you in passing, and honking at you, gesturing at you, etc. This is illuminating of the truth about people, IMO.

Again: I'm getting 16+ to 18+ mpg with my LX, in mixed city/hwy pattern. EPA rating is 13-16 mpg. (And my front brakes are still factory, at over 100k miles, and they have ~40k left in them. Rears went 86k. ) 'Nuff said.
 
Last edited:
Of course, the impatient drivers behind you misinterpret the economical driving style as a sign that you are weak, and they react abusively - tailgating you, intentionally cutting too closely to you in passing, and honking at you, gesturing at you, etc. This is illuminating of the truth about people, IMO.

Some excellent points, but these issues you mention are what make that driving style less relaxing than it should be. I drive into Boston 5 days a week and every time I try to drive this way I end up getting frustrated by people cutting in front of me (forcing me to brake), tailgating me, honking at me, making obscene gestures, etc. It's really annoying when you leave a comfort zone between yourself and the vehicle ahead of you because everyone else interprets that as an opportunity to cut in.

When I had my Land Rover Discovery with a suspension lift, big bumpers, rock sliders, and off road scars, people seemed a lot less willing to take the chance of cutting me off.

Now that I have a brand new, pristine, expensive vehicle, I'm noticing that people are more willing to take chances probably because they assume (I suppose rightly so) that I don't want to get any damage... Maybe I should get some aggressive bumpers and get some off road scars :cool:.
 
If your wife is so fixated on mpg - why is she driving a V8 SUV? It is better to be safe than to worry about a few cents saved on mpg.

Those electronic MPG gizmos are nice toys. They are nice for awareness of relative mpg, but I have not found them accurate compared to the actual gas used. As with all things, it is easy to get fanatical about one thing to the exclusion of other important things.

I have seen people fanatical about mpg, latest safety features, crash tests, speed capability, horsepower, etc. However, driving is a community thing with all the other drivers on the road, and moderation, alertness, and courtesy are key items for safe driving.

I have been involved with squeezing mpgs in the past - constant accelerator (vs constant speed), slow starts and stops (like RR engineer), coasting on hills, driving under 60 mph, A/C off, etc. As best I can recall, I was only within 1 mpg of what I would get with "reasonable" driving. Reasonable driving to me involves a comfortable, slightly aggresive style that smoothly blends with traffic and utilizes defensive driving techniques. Since I grew up in Los Angeles, I understand there are different styles of implementing defensive and slightly aggressive driving.

Vehicle maintenance, quality gasoline, and picking travel times/days can have more impact on mpg than constantly monitoring a gauge with significant slow start/stops. Becoming a safety hazard on the road is going to end up costing a lot more than a few pennies saved on mpg.

The LC/LX is good on mpg compared to other V8 SUVs. Just like arguments about HP, 0-60 times, etc. there is a lot more to selecting and driving a vehicle than just isolated factors.

Sometimes, "common sense" does not work. My first car was a 65 Mustang 289, 4v, 4spd that routinely got 15 mpg. The best mpg I ever got with it was driving through AZ averaging about 90 mph to stay ahead of the 18 wheelers - it was the only time I saw 20 mpg with it. Otherwise, I rarely saw more than 16 mpg, even when traveling 60 mph.
 
Some excellent points, but these issues you mention are what make that driving style less relaxing than it should be. I drive into Boston 5 days a week and every time I try to drive this way I end up getting frustrated by people cutting in front of me (forcing me to brake), tailgating me, honking at me, making obscene gestures, etc. It's really annoying when you leave a comfort zone between yourself and the vehicle ahead of you because everyone else interprets that as an opportunity to cut in.

When I had my Land Rover Discovery with a suspension lift, big bumpers, rock sliders, and off road scars, people seemed a lot less willing to take the chance of cutting me off.

Now that I have a brand new, pristine, expensive vehicle, I'm noticing that people are more willing to take chances probably because they assume (I suppose rightly so) that I don't want to get any damage... Maybe I should get some aggressive bumpers and get some off road scars :cool:.

(Sigh), yes you are correct about the "impatient fool drivers annoyance factor".

Actually, I'm more concerned with reducing wear & tear on the vehicle, than maximizing fuel economy per se. But it turns out that the two goals go hand in hand.

In any case, I'll be damned if I'm going to increase the wear & tear on my vehicle just to make impatient fools feel like they are getting somewhere sooner (it makes no difference to net trip time).

Besides, even if I WAS delaying their arrival somewhere (I'm not - re the red lights), it would be merely quid pro quo, because I've been delayed by other people millions of times, summing to thousands of hours, in countless ways, in my lifetime - so I am not too concerned about returning the favor from time to time.

(Just returned from W.Mart, where I wasted 25 minutes waiting in line. Add it to the sum. 5 seconds delay in traffic is nothing, in comparison. Is anybody getting the point?)


(Bring on the flames! :) )
 
Last edited:
Wow, took a few days off the list

Lots of responses. Thank you. I will pass on this advice to her. She managed to get 19.8 for the first half of this weeks tank, which includes some traffic and city driving...

Can't do much more than 14 in my 2000. Don't ask about the '84. Of course, she is a much more 'zen' driver than I am.
 
Back
Top Bottom