My Ignition Broke!

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wow, good work.

since you are now the resident expert on all things ignition switch, i'm wondering if you can help shed some light on why i can remove my key from the cylinder with the truck in gear OTHER than Park. in more detail, i can turn the key CCW and hits a stop at ACC, but pushing straight in on the cylinder allows me to continue to rotate to OFF and remove the key.

existing post: Ignition key can pull out of tumbler while in drive - https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/ignition-key-can-pull-out-of-tumbler-while-in-drive.651792/post-14428427

i have the key interlock solenoid hanging, and can feel the solenoid pin extend during the test scenarios. the solenoid seems to give up some of its strength after ~1sec, and i can push it back in with little effort (which seems to match the FSM test cases). it passes a resistance check per the FSM. i can push up on the spring-loaded stop pin manually, and can't remove the key, but i'm not sure how far the solenoid pushes this stop pin.


so my question to you is, does removing the cylinder give visual access to the spring-loaded pin that the solenoid engages? might just be gummed up?i shot some wd-40 in there but it didnt help.

is removing the cylinder as easy as pushing in the stop pin and pulling the cylinder out? i still have the ignition trim installed (includes key warning switch, light housing, etc).
If you are able to remove your key at any time, then there are tumblers hanging up and sticking, or the key is heavily worn.

Yes, removing the key cylinder will allow access to the body of it and you can use electrical contact solvent to wash out the guts of the key cylinder, the relube the tumblers and pins with silicone spray or liquid (dry) spray graphite Then use the key to push in/out and in all positions to make sure the lube is worked into the tumblers well.

It is still possible that even after cleaning and lubing that your key cylinder tumblers are worn or broken and will still allow the key to be removed at any position. if it still does this, then consider taking the key cylinder to a locksmith to have them set up new pins in it. Make sure to take a "new" key or one with little wear on it when you drop it off. It is also possible that you need a new key made that the ground/cut areas are so worn off that it won't stay in. My aftermarket key wears the "square" edges off the body of the key and I can no longer turn the lock. I usually go through at least one key per year (mine's a DD for 15K-20K miles/yr).

Yes, removing the cylinder is truly as easy as inserting the key, turn to ACC, push the button on the bottom of the barrel, and pulling and wiggling until it comes out. I was happily surprised how easy it was considering some of the other brands I have fought with over the years. You can leave all the trim in place. If you have removed the key interlock, then you are close enough to push the button on the bottom of the barrel.
(I used to do doors, locks, and windows for a college maintenance program, so I am quite proficient at keys, locks, and tumblers.)
 

ToyotaMatt

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in my experience , the costs associated with having a certified and licensed vehicle lock smith , disassemble , installing " new pins " , tumblers , springs , wafers and

then also if required a new cylinder core itself far out-way by at least $101+ to several hundred dollars ,


why ? 🤔


- because to re-key / re-code a 91-97 80 series ignition you have to drill out both stamped RIVITS and also create a access hole again drilling in 2 sorta mystery

locations that in no way clearly defined , to access both alignment pins for surgical extraction using a lock-smith mini-type-trade-craft press device ..


- re-assembly includes the use of a 3 part bonding agent system that makes the term EPOXY look like child's play art supplies , it is over $100+ for the 3 tubes kit ,


- i would HIGHLY suggest getting any 80 series ign. lock repair estimate in firm writing , and DO NOT assume anything , or you WILL take a financial bath and get

your feelings hurt real bad in the process too


- this is straight talk , to be krystal klear , if you doubt my suggestions above , report back after your bath ....... :confused:



- TOYOTA designed the 80 series USA-SPEC. Ignition Lock cylinder to be NON-SERVICABLE , how ever the above is involved if you choose to have it SERVICED ......
 
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If you are able to remove your key at any time, then there are tumblers hanging up and sticking, or the key is heavily worn.

Yes, removing the key cylinder will allow access to the body of it and you can use electrical contact solvent to wash out the guts of the key cylinder, the relube the tumblers and pins with silicone spray or liquid (dry) spray graphite Then use the key to push in/out and in all positions to make sure the lube is worked into the tumblers well.

It is still possible that even after cleaning and lubing that your key cylinder tumblers are worn or broken and will still allow the key to be removed at any position. if it still does this, then consider taking the key cylinder to a locksmith to have them set up new pins in it. Make sure to take a "new" key or one with little wear on it when you drop it off. It is also possible that you need a new key made that the ground/cut areas are so worn off that it won't stay in. My aftermarket key wears the "square" edges off the body of the key and I can no longer turn the lock. I usually go through at least one key per year (mine's a DD for 15K-20K miles/yr).

Yes, removing the cylinder is truly as easy as inserting the key, turn to ACC, push the button on the bottom of the barrel, and pulling and wiggling until it comes out. I was happily surprised how easy it was considering some of the other brands I have fought with over the years. You can leave all the trim in place. If you have removed the key interlock, then you are close enough to push the button on the bottom of the barrel.
(I used to do doors, locks, and windows for a college maintenance program, so I am quite proficient at keys, locks, and tumblers.)
i have a brand new key. i can't remove the key at any time so i don't think the tumblers are worn badly. i can only REMOVE the key with the ignition in the OFF/LOCK position. however, i can turn the cylinder to LOCK with the trans in R, N, D. but only if i hit a physical stop at ACC, push IN on the cylinder, and turn one more stop to LOCK. the cylinder IS supposed to have movement in the axial direction( In/out, not CW/CCW), yes?


thanks on the cylinder removal verification. i pushed on the pin and wiggled the cylinder out a fraction of an inch but gave up before i did something un-reversible. i'd like to remove it, inspect and clean everything up, and re-lube. if that doesn't fix or shed light on my issue, i'll give up. it could be that the solenoid is just weak or the stop pin is worn down (and i don't think is serviceable?).
 
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i have a brand new key. i can't remove the key at any time so i don't think the tumblers are worn badly. i can only REMOVE the key with the ignition in the OFF position. however, i can turn the cylinder to OFF with the trans in R, N, D. but only if i hit a physical stop at ACC, push IN on the cylinder, and turn one more stop to OFF. the cylinder IS supposed to have movement in the axial direction( In/out, not CW/CCW), yes?


thanks on the cylinder removal verification. i pushed on the pin and wiggled the cylinder out a fraction of an inch but gave up before i did something un-reversible. i'd like to remove it, inspect and clean everything up, and re-lube. if that doesn't fix or shed light on my issue, i'll give up. it could be that the solenoid is just weak or the stop pin is worn down (and i don't think is serviceable?).
Yes, I can shut off my truck in any shifter position as well. That has to do with the Neutral Safety Switch (NSS) and it is not supposed to release the key until it is in PARK.
Can you start it with the shifter in PARK? How about Neutral? How about in gear?

Yes, you are always supposed to push in on the key to move from ACC to OFF.

You may just have to wiggle a bit more on the cylinder removal. If it pulled out a little, make sure the plunger is pushed in adequately. I had one screwdriver that would not push in the pin far enough, so I switched tools. May need a smaller tip to go deeper.

You need to look more at the wiring and switch adjustment for the park and NSS down on the shifter and linkage. I'm not familiar completely with it, but that's where the issue should reside based on your description.
 
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Yes, I can shut off my truck in any shifter position as well. That has to do with the Neutral Safety Switch (NSS) and it is not supposed to release the key until it is in PARK.
Can you start it with the shifter in PARK? How about Neutral? How about in gear?

Yes, you are always supposed to push in on the key to move from ACC to OFF.

You may just have to wiggle a bit more on the cylinder removal. If it pulled out a little, make sure the plunger is pushed in adequately. I had one screwdriver that would not push in the pin far enough, so I switched tools. May need a smaller tip to go deeper.

You need to look more at the wiring and switch adjustment for the park and NSS down on the shifter and linkage. I'm not familiar completely with it, but that's where the issue should reside based on your description.
no, i can't start the truck in gear. NSS is working. but on a couple occasions i have turned the truck off in gear, then turned the cylinder to LOCK, and removed the key. only when i returned and couldn't start the truck did i realize my error and clued into the fact there is a solenoid and stop pin designed to prevent this. parking brake kept the truck from rolling. i daily a manual car so i'm out of the habit of shifting to P.

i have a couple more voltage and ground checks to verify with the shift lock ecu and key interlock solenoid. and now physical inspection of the lock cylinder thanks to your tips on pulling the cylinder.

the FSM makes it look like the interlock solenoid stop pin and spring are removable, but i couldn't figure out how.
 
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no, i can't start the truck in gear. NSS is working. but on a couple occasions i have turned the truck off in gear, then turned the cylinder to LOCK, and removed the key. only when i returned and couldn't start the truck did i realize my error and clued into the fact there is a solenoid and stop pin designed to prevent this. parking brake kept the truck from rolling. i daily a manual car so i'm out of the habit of shifting to P.

i have a couple more voltage and ground checks to verify with the shift lock ecu and key interlock solenoid. and now physical inspection of the lock cylinder thanks to your tips on pulling the cylinder.

the FSM makes it look like the interlock solenoid stop pin and spring are removable, but i couldn't figure out how.
Yes, the interlock stop pin and spring are removable. They seem to be a tight fit, but I did not try to remove it because I don't like to remove stuff that's not necessary.

You may want to look into the barrel cylinder anyway, as there is a half-moon piece that is part of the locking mechanism. I'm not 100% sure what it's for, but I wasn't studying that at the time. You can see it on the right side in the pic below.


IMG_20220711_213521588_HDR (Medium).jpg
 
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no, i can't start the truck in gear. NSS is working. but on a couple occasions i have turned the truck off in gear, then turned the cylinder to LOCK, and removed the key. only when i returned and couldn't start the truck did i realize my error and clued into the fact there is a solenoid and stop pin designed to prevent this. parking brake kept the truck from rolling. i daily a manual car so i'm out of the habit of shifting to P.

i have a couple more voltage and ground checks to verify with the shift lock ecu and key interlock solenoid. and now physical inspection of the lock cylinder thanks to your tips on pulling the cylinder.

the FSM makes it look like the interlock solenoid stop pin and spring are removable, but i couldn't figure out how.
Well, guess what?

It's "normal".

I just drove my 96 LC and I can shut it off and remove the key while in gear.

I must move it to P or N in order to restart.

I can put it in park with no key in the ignition, but I must have the key on and my foot on the brake in order to pull it from park.
 
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Well, guess what?

It's "normal".

I just drove my 96 LC and I can shut it off and remove the key while in gear.

I must move it to P or N in order to restart.

I can put it in park with no key in the ignition, but I must have the key on and my foot on the brake in order to pull it from park.
hmmm. good to know yours is similar to mine. everything you said is also how mine operates. i have conflicting info that this is normal however. i preferred it when i was ignorant to this key interlock solenoid and its supposed function.

The EWD for "Shift Lock" states:
2. KEY INTER LOCK MECHANISM
WITH THE IGNITION SW AT ON OR ACC POSITION, WHEN SHIFT LEVER IS PUT IN “P” POSITION (NO CONTINUITY BETWEEN P2 AND
P OF LOCK CONTROL SW), THE CURRENT FROM TERMINAL 4 OF THE SHIFT LOCK ECU TO THE KEY INTER LOCK SOLENOID IS CUT
OFF. THIS CAUSES THE KEY INTER LOCK SOLENOID TO TURN OFF (LOCK LEVER DISENGAGES FROM LOCK POSITION), AND THE
IGNITION KEY CAN BE TURNED FROM ACC TO LOCK POSITION.

everything ignition and shifter related in my truck appear to be operating in-spec EXCEPT for me being able to turn the key from ACC to LOCK with the shifter in gear still. to do this i do have to push IN on the cylinder, but i have to do this in "P" as well.....at least i think.
 
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So I got a couple original key blanks to cut because when I bought my 80 it only had two key copies. I took it to Ace Hardware to cut one of the keys and see if it would work. Good thing I tried it when I got home because the key is stuck in the ignition cylinder. I can’t get it out. It did turn and start the car. But it will not come out of the cylinder. Any ideas on what to do? Am I stuck buying a new cylinder and key set?

0C9C3529-BFFE-4438-920A-4887ED4923E0.jpeg


D3C46099-5A92-4F77-A93F-2FD7E580DB7A.jpeg


52523BEB-0CB4-4349-9F60-4032D9776188.jpeg
 

ToyotaMatt

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So I got a couple original key blanks to cut because when I bought my 80 it only had two key copies. I took it to Ace Hardware to cut one of the keys and see if it would work. Good thing I tried it when I got home because the key is stuck in the ignition cylinder. I can’t get it out. It did turn and start the car. But it will not come out of the cylinder. Any ideas on what to do? Am I stuck buying a new cylinder and key set?

View attachment 3076424

View attachment 3076425

View attachment 3076426



see the little button on the end


press that down , while at the same time folding the gold arm up as far as it will go , and at that VERY same time rotate the ignition key to the LOCK position


should set you free form this Torcher 🤔


matt



fj80 banner1.png
 
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Then use spray graphite or silicone to lubricate the pins and repeat this process over and over until it feels smooth and everything operates as it should.

Spray it in through the keyhole until it's dripping out.
 
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see the little button on the end


press that down , while at the same time folding the gold arm up as far as it will go , and at that VERY same time rotate the ignition key to the LOCK position


should set you free form this Torcher 🤔


matt



Okay, this definitely didn’t work for me after hours of messing with it. Back up a little bit to fill in the blanks…. When I got the new key copy made I could tell it wasn’t cut as deep (to shallow) as the one that worked. I took a file and made it deeper in sections to match the working key. My transition from the peaks to valley in the key cut were a little sharp. When I look at the working key the transition from peak to valley has a nice 45ish degree angle which allows the tumblers to ride up and over the peaks without getting stuck. I think I am catching on one of the tumblers and it can’t pull back out of the cylinder as I tried to deepen the valley. I don’t think I am getting this key out.

So, if I have the VIN, is there a way to get a new ignition key cylinder (with keys) to match my doors and rear lift gate?
 

ToyotaMatt

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Okay, this definitely didn’t work for me after hours of messing with it. Back up a little bit to fill in the blanks…. When I got the new key copy made I could tell it wasn’t cut as deep (to shallow) as the one that worked. I took a file and made it deeper in sections to match the working key. My transition from the peaks to valley in the key cut were a little sharp. When I look at the working key the transition from peak to valley has a nice 45ish degree angle which allows the tumblers to ride up and over the peaks without getting stuck. I think I am catching on one of the tumblers and it can’t pull back out of the cylinder as I tried to deepen the valley. I don’t think I am getting this key out.

So, if I have the VIN, is there a way to get a new ignition key cylinder (with keys) to match my doors and rear lift gate?


hold on for a moment here ?

you are hand filing your TRACE COPY hardware store aftermarket key in hopes it will work better ........... 🤔



do i understand this correctly here , ? :meh:




is the hand filed key STILL stuck in your ignition cylinder right this second ?

is this a new replacement ignition cylinder or a original one ?

why have you removed it from the land cruiser


all these facts need to be out now



report back

thanks

and we will see what all we can do here ?
 
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hold on for a moment here ?

you are hand filing your TRACE COPY hardware store aftermarket key in hopes it will work better ........... 🤔



do i understand this correctly here , ? :meh:




is the hand filed key STILL stuck in your ignition cylinder right this second ?

is this a new replacement ignition cylinder or a original one ?

why have you removed it from the land cruiser


all these facts need to be out now



report back

thanks

and we will see what all we can do here ?
So when I bought the car it came with two key copies. No original keys. One copy was pretty worn the other looked like a newish trace copy. Neither were Toyota keys, both were generic. I ordered a Toyota blank to do a trace copy as I wanted some good working extras. Dude at Ace Hardware did one of the worst copy jobs I have ever seen. Copy was cut too shallow from what I could tell. It didn’t work the door or the ignition. Then I looked at it closer and thought I may be able to file down the trace copy to better match my working generic copy. I got home and tried the newly filed trace copy and it is now stuck in the ignition. It will turn the cylinder with some giggling. But I can’t get it out. I think I was too aggressive on my hand filing. Sine I couldn’t get the key out, I removed the cylinder. I didn’t want it sitting in my driveway with a key in the ignition.

So now I have the cylinder pulled with this bad ( well not too bad as it does turn the cylinder) trace key stuck in it.
 

ToyotaMatt

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hummmmmm ,.........


i need to ponder the best path forward here , thanks for the extra tech here , i better understand now


ill be back in a bit , i have to consult one of my T-TEN college course books on this topic ..
 

ToyotaMatt

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No worries, I am headed to bed. I’ve got an early morning.


ok

lets try simple first :

remove the snap ring on back side


push and pull the cylinder in and out and far as each stroke or range of motion allows , if needed gently tap tap snap ring area in wooden table ,


like in a repetitive pecking motion or Tapping ....


the idea here is to rattle the cylinder bore free , from the added free play range of the snap ring removed


add some wd-40 ONLY product before you commence my step by steps


under NO circumstances EVER USE any types of Graphite , powder of liquid in ANY TOYOTA key lock cylinder , or there will be a shorter then you can

possibly imagine life span for that particular Toyota lock and key cylinder



do u understand the above , if not let me know and i can try to explain differently ?


matt
.......
 
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add some wd-40 ONLY product before you commence my step by steps


under NO circumstances EVER USE any types of Graphite , powder of liquid in ANY TOYOTA key lock cylinder , or there will be a shorter then you can

possibly imagine life span for that particular Toyota lock and key cylinder
I'm curious on why you give this advice.

I've been doing doors and locks for 40 years and all that is ever preached is DON'T use WD-40 or other oil because it will attract and hold dust and debris.

I have used spray graphite and silicone in many locks without issues.

Why is Toyota special here? Still pins and springs sliding in barrels.
 

ToyotaMatt

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I'm curious on why you give this advice.

I've been doing doors and locks for 40 years and all that is ever preached is DON'T use WD-40 or other oil because it will attract and hold dust and debris.

I have used spray graphite and silicone in many locks without issues.

Why is Toyota special here? Still pins and springs sliding in barrels.

i in no way mean any dis-respect to be klear , you have done a excellent job outlining the step by steps in the first posts of this thread

please know that ...:)




the the metallurgy of Toyota locks , keys , and internal parts tumblers , springs , cylinder cores and bores is different then the same era Detroit big 3 had ,

as well as many other non-Japanese auto makers at this period



the TOKAIRIKA corporation is TOYOTA's OEM locks and anything keys maker , was in 1962 first FJ40 , heck even FJ25 , and still is today in 2022 , they are under the

BOSCH company now formally known as the ROBERT BOSCH a NipponDenso Company ..........

After Robert and the DENSO and Nippon family's had a TIFF , you can call it , all 3 split and there simply called DENSO now , BOSCH is BOSCH and

the NIPPON's are lost to pages of history ?




TORKAIRIKA , still was TORKIRIKA during most of the 91-97 80 series production , but scooped up by BOSCH and now goes by TORKIA only under the watch full eyes of BIG brother bosch



in the 1990's TOKAIRIKA used ALL steel tumblers and a Pot metal cast main lock cylinder , and a magnesium core or bore , part that rotates , our friends key is binding in and stuck bad from what he discusses above ?



i admit i had to and wanted to , dust off lock and key 101T student training manuals , because , in my 30+ years since T-TEN i have never crossed paths


with a person trying to fashion there own Toyota key with a hand file ? this is new and unique and different ....


and after he added the additional tech and facts , or as i might put it lightly , fessed up and came clean on the story of how this key became randomly stuck to

the why behind all things toyota and stuff ..........


i sat back and sipped a ROLLING ROCK , and indeed ponder the next move here ? 🤔



i can openly admit , i don't know SH#T about self fashioning any Toyota key , but now i have decided to help the person , get un-stuck because that's the right thing

to do here on MUD ,


if anyone thinks its all HAHA HA toyotamatt blew the dust off his T-TEN bourse books , photos or it dont exist rules apply 100% is fair :)




- when he wakes up i am going top offer @VonArnim a face time , to see closer if my snap ring idea will work ? if not he can mail me the lock stuck key inside and

all take a solid crack at removing key carefully and making his ign. - lock a quick as possible tuen around for him , there will be NO service fees involved here for him



Karma is king in my JIS world ........



i hope i explained the graphite use in a toyota well enough for you to understand ?

kindy matt




Here is a bit of what I brushed up on last night I’ll share ..



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638E5BA7-33CC-412B-A46D-16DA487CAE02.jpeg
 
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