Lubing propeller shaft Risky (AKA Drive Shaft)
- Thread starter 2001LC
- Start date
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I'm wondering if one couldn't pump the thing full and then slowly move the axles around with a jack to get the DS to go in fully at a slow pace. That should not create any problem with excessive thrust and would set up the system for safe street and offroad use... Now to figure out a good way to do that...
- Thread starter
- #43
I've tried this on the TLC didn't work.
Tried this off the TLC, on the bench took over 500 PSI to get grease to flow with no lasting effect (no lessening of seal).
The seals seam to tighten with more pressure.
Tried this off the TLC, on the bench took over 500 PSI to get grease to flow with no lasting effect (no lessening of seal).
The seals seam to tighten with more pressure.
The propeller shaft grease seals on my 98 seem to work fine. They allow allow old grease to exit and be replaced by fresh new grease. I use a Amsoil NGLI #2 EP (Extreme Pressure) (Lithium complex, moly-fortified (3%) and purple).
- I do not think the answer is a $30 GM super-grease if the grease seals on your shaft are not allowing grease to flow. The super-grease will not get to where it is needed.
- Same thing with three pumps, the grease is not where it's needed and you are just filling a lot slower.
NLGI #1 might be a good idea since the lower viscosity could help "loosen" the crud preventing a proper flow. NGLI #1 greases are very similar to #2 greases with the exception of viscosity. The only down side to #1 is that it could "seep" away from or spin-off of the part needing lubrication. Not much danger of that give that you currently have too little flow. A little heat on the shaft in the area of the seal could also help get it flowing. Once a good flow-through is established then frequent greasing will probably prevent a recurrence.
I doubt the service interval is too conservative. I think it is more likely that a lack of service is responsible for these seal problems. The grease is actually "consumed" in this slip yoke application with each extension or compression. The grease coats the shaft on extension and then the grease left exposed after compression is washed away. The grease near the seal is contaminated with water and road grime carried past the seal on compression strokes in the same manner. The frequent lubing recommended will "clean" the seal area by pushing out the contaminated and emulsified grease and replace it with new. If there is no regular service then the "grime" could harden and block the seal. Over time the oil in any grease "seeps" out of it's binders and takes the lubrication with it.
FWIW
- I do not think the answer is a $30 GM super-grease if the grease seals on your shaft are not allowing grease to flow. The super-grease will not get to where it is needed.
- Same thing with three pumps, the grease is not where it's needed and you are just filling a lot slower.
NLGI #1 might be a good idea since the lower viscosity could help "loosen" the crud preventing a proper flow. NGLI #1 greases are very similar to #2 greases with the exception of viscosity. The only down side to #1 is that it could "seep" away from or spin-off of the part needing lubrication. Not much danger of that give that you currently have too little flow. A little heat on the shaft in the area of the seal could also help get it flowing. Once a good flow-through is established then frequent greasing will probably prevent a recurrence.
Maybe the service interval is overkill, or maybe the short service interval makes sense for the u-joints (it does imo if the vehicle is seeing a lot of mud & water etc) so the service interval for slip joints was thrown in for good measure, while the grease monkey is doing the u-joints.
I doubt the service interval is too conservative. I think it is more likely that a lack of service is responsible for these seal problems. The grease is actually "consumed" in this slip yoke application with each extension or compression. The grease coats the shaft on extension and then the grease left exposed after compression is washed away. The grease near the seal is contaminated with water and road grime carried past the seal on compression strokes in the same manner. The frequent lubing recommended will "clean" the seal area by pushing out the contaminated and emulsified grease and replace it with new. If there is no regular service then the "grime" could harden and block the seal. Over time the oil in any grease "seeps" out of it's binders and takes the lubrication with it.
FWIW
- Grease has two basic parts - Oil for lubrication and a thickener to keep the oil where it'd needed
- Bentonite = clay based thickener = not compatible with Lithium Greases (or others)
- Marine greases = usually aluminum or calcium based thickener for better water resistance = may not be compatible with Lithium Greases but good in many of the same applications if the original lube is totally removed
- Lithium complex = Lithium soap = Grease thickened with Lithium soap complex
- Moly is a grey shiny powdered metal added to the above greases and is useful as a lubricant when extreme pressures "squeeze" the lubricating oils away from the friction point. Moly greases often have EP for "extreme pressure" in the name. It is used in concentrations of 1-5%. I've heard 3% is the best with little improvement above that point.
- MP = Multipurpose Grease = just about any grease including all of the ones mentioned in this thread. When Toyota says MP they are saying very little other than that the part needs lubed. You will not find MP printed on grease packaging.
- NGLI #1 and #2 are viscosity standards only and tell you almost nothing about the greases' formulation or performance
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This implies that the FSM recommendation to grease until grease seeps out past seal, is correct and by design, not a typo.
Since I overgreased per FSM, there is definitely more grease working its way past the seal, leaving a healthy residue on the exposed shaft, by way of extension/compression during normal operation.
This did not happen when I only put a few squirts in per greasing, before.
By the way - make sure you don't ingest the moly. It is somewhat toxic. (Regular plain grease probably won't hurt you if you forget to wash your hands before eating with your hands, but additives like moly should be avoided in your diet.
)
- Thread starter
- #46
Jim_ chow, Tinkerer and Nmuzj100
My thump is gone.
But hydro lock may have caused a problem.
Nmuzj100, Your statement on the NLGI #1 was welcome and comfirms my research, thank you for posting it.
Nmuzj100, Do all Lithium base greases that say EP have Moly?
Tinkerer and Nmuzj100;
Both of you disagree with the use of the GM grease. I ended up not using it. As it turns out the shop Forman and I were on different pages, he thought I was talking about a condition they see that happens on various makes and models. This condition is believed to be caused by the tooling on the teeth of the spline and sleeve yoke. He said they have tried to file the tooling marks (ridges) smooth. The GM grease was made with this condition on GM cars and worked well to free up the propeller shaft so it could move freely without filling he said.
As far as filling the propeller shafts until the old grease flows out the seals as stated in the FSM, I agree, provide it does not cause excessive pressure. The shop Forman said all his people know to keep the weight on the vechicles' axles (wheels) when lubing, so that it's filled in a nutraul position. He recommends not putting as much grease in the shafts as the FSM recommends "it tens to cause hydro lock". My guess on this is that the clients complain about a thump when they leave the shop. He said the FSM is wrong which happen often; do to communication between engineers, wirters and translators. I must say I found many errors while using it to do my 90,000 mile service. Errors like torque spec. such as for the wheel lugs 97 ft-lb in one spot and 74 in a different section, test porcedure to make sure the timing belt is set right is wrong, disassemble or assemble orders mixed up.
Toyota does change their recommendation from time to time, such as grease: the 2001 FSM does not use Moly anywhere that I've seen. example of change: 2001 FSM recommends Synthetic oil and Lithium soap base NLGI #1 (it does say and) for the front axle thrust bushing, nowhere that i could find does it say what to use on the thrust bearing. The 2002 recommends using a moly but didn't say NLGI #1 or #2. Note: the shop Forman said they use NLGI #2, which using a #2 somtimes causes the thrust bushing to gron, when cold on turns, but well not hurt anything He said.
I agree that the propeller shafts have not been serviced properly. This is my fault; I bought the TLC with 58,000 miles on it and had the dealer do the 60,000 mile service. I thought the seals and U-joints were sealed like on my sons' Lexus IS300. I have only been changing the oil and minor servies for the last 40,000 miles.
I have now cleaned out both front and rear Shafts and Lube with Amsoil Lithium complex EP fortified NLGI #1 GC LB (it does not say Moly). I pulled the grease zerk (the front shaft that I did last week) drop one end of the shaft and press the grease out the zerk. I notices while pressing the grease out the zerk, by hand, that some flowed out the seal, this put a smile on my face. This indicated to me that the lack of service had plugged and harden the seals. I plan on lubing these seals every week or two with just a little bit until they both flow freely and are full (I have very little grease in them now). Then i will press most of the grease out through zerks and start filling them with a good Lithium Moly #2 EP GC LB.
But I may have created a problem. When I pump the rear shaft full of grease today, after cleaning & reinstalling on the TLC. The shaft didn't extend, no grease came out the seal, but grease came out of the sleeve yoke from the cup (cap) area near the u-joint very very easely. In part, I believe this happen because it was cleaned out. But I am concerned that the pressure I put on it (when I grease it 1,000 miles ago) by driving it while it was hydro locked, caused this area to open up around the edges (I shinned a light in the yoke while cleaning and it look ok, no holes or cracks apparent) Grease is also coming out the cup area and seal of the front Propeller shaft but it takes much more pressure to make this happen.
What do you guys' think: did i screew up by driving while hydro locked?
Do you guys' see this grease coming out the end of the rear sleeve yoke cup (cap) area so easily to be a problem?
And if so what can i do about it?
The only thing i can think of is give one good wack with a hammer, but I would have to R&R the U-joint.
Two possible problems with this I am concerned with are:
1) I may not be able to fill up the cavity completely, with grease gun, through the zerk (grease possible staying only in cavity near zerk not flow all the way around spline)..
2) water infiltration (where grease is coming out of cup area of sleeve yoke) if not keep pack with grease.
Thank you guys for all you help and good advise, you guys do no your stuff.
2001LC
PS: Nmuzj100 I did see the thread on greasing, this is what made me realize i had and issue with hydro lock.
Note what I've done to my TLC
catching up for my pour service of the last 40,000 miles)
I got this stuff done for about $1,450.00:
Timing belt & both pulls.
Drive belt & both pulls.
Cleaned and oil K&N filter.
Flush radiator. Toyota red.
Flushed transmission, 19 qt. Mobil 1 ATF.
Flushed power steering, 3 qt. Mobil 1 ATF.
Engine oil Synthetic Castrol 7 qt. 5W-30 and dealer filter.
T-case Gear lube 1.3qt. 75-90 mobil 1
Front Diff. Gear lube1.8qt. 75-90 mobil 1.
Rear Diff. Gear lube3.3 qt. 75-90 Mobil 1.
Replaced right front Diff axle seal.
Replaced right Front axle (CV joint) boots.
R&L axle, thrust bushings & bearings cleaned & packed, Amsoil NLIGI #1.
Packed R&L wheel bearings, new seals, gaskets, lock washers & grease caps, 1 can Mobil 1.
Left axle snap ring sized to spec. and replaced claw washer.
Removed and cleaned Front & Rear propeller shaft sleeve yokes.
Greased Propeller shaft yokes lightly, Amsoil synthetic Lithium NLGI #1.
Greased U-joints Synthetic lithium Moly NLGI #2.
Filled washer fluid.
Replaced antenna.
Checked breaks.
Cleaned and conditioned leather.
Touched up paint.
Three step wax.
Cleaned under side and engine.
Painting bare spots and rust areas underside were needed.
Rubberized wheel wells were needed.
Replaced missing bolts and fasteners.
Re toque and tightened chasse.
New tires.
Alignment.
Minor ding paint-less dent repair.
Repair minor holes leather.
New windshield, done right.
Checked all seals.
Removed some of the fake wood grain.
Not Done:
Water pump, thermostat & and front main seal, all looked very good.
Windshield wipers’, could use soon.
Clean windows, carpet & headliner.
Head lights not needed but would like.
In progress:
Grease propeller shafts with Synthetic lithium moly NLGI #1 every 500 miles or so lightly until full and flowing grease.
Will change all grease too Synthetic lithium moly grease NLGI #2 except front axle, thrust bushing & bearings which I will use NLGI #1
May go with all Amsoil; oils, ATF, greases & lubes as they have 75-90 & 80-90 gear lube and both types of grease #1 & #2. (Would like to use one brand throughout)
Biggest problem areas:
Propeller shafts were hydro locking causing thump on slow take off from stop and thump at slow speeds on minor bumps.
Rear propeller shaft cup not sealed.
Left front wheel bearing, some mechanic left the bearing adjusting nut to tight.
Very very slight pull to the right.
Cleaning the outboard CV joint, a pain.
Vibration from high low shifter.
My thump is gone.
But hydro lock may have caused a problem.
Nmuzj100, Your statement on the NLGI #1 was welcome and comfirms my research, thank you for posting it.
Nmuzj100, Do all Lithium base greases that say EP have Moly?
Tinkerer and Nmuzj100;
Both of you disagree with the use of the GM grease. I ended up not using it. As it turns out the shop Forman and I were on different pages, he thought I was talking about a condition they see that happens on various makes and models. This condition is believed to be caused by the tooling on the teeth of the spline and sleeve yoke. He said they have tried to file the tooling marks (ridges) smooth. The GM grease was made with this condition on GM cars and worked well to free up the propeller shaft so it could move freely without filling he said.
As far as filling the propeller shafts until the old grease flows out the seals as stated in the FSM, I agree, provide it does not cause excessive pressure. The shop Forman said all his people know to keep the weight on the vechicles' axles (wheels) when lubing, so that it's filled in a nutraul position. He recommends not putting as much grease in the shafts as the FSM recommends "it tens to cause hydro lock". My guess on this is that the clients complain about a thump when they leave the shop. He said the FSM is wrong which happen often; do to communication between engineers, wirters and translators. I must say I found many errors while using it to do my 90,000 mile service. Errors like torque spec. such as for the wheel lugs 97 ft-lb in one spot and 74 in a different section, test porcedure to make sure the timing belt is set right is wrong, disassemble or assemble orders mixed up.
Toyota does change their recommendation from time to time, such as grease: the 2001 FSM does not use Moly anywhere that I've seen. example of change: 2001 FSM recommends Synthetic oil and Lithium soap base NLGI #1 (it does say and) for the front axle thrust bushing, nowhere that i could find does it say what to use on the thrust bearing. The 2002 recommends using a moly but didn't say NLGI #1 or #2. Note: the shop Forman said they use NLGI #2, which using a #2 somtimes causes the thrust bushing to gron, when cold on turns, but well not hurt anything He said.
I agree that the propeller shafts have not been serviced properly. This is my fault; I bought the TLC with 58,000 miles on it and had the dealer do the 60,000 mile service. I thought the seals and U-joints were sealed like on my sons' Lexus IS300. I have only been changing the oil and minor servies for the last 40,000 miles.
I have now cleaned out both front and rear Shafts and Lube with Amsoil Lithium complex EP fortified NLGI #1 GC LB (it does not say Moly). I pulled the grease zerk (the front shaft that I did last week) drop one end of the shaft and press the grease out the zerk. I notices while pressing the grease out the zerk, by hand, that some flowed out the seal, this put a smile on my face. This indicated to me that the lack of service had plugged and harden the seals. I plan on lubing these seals every week or two with just a little bit until they both flow freely and are full (I have very little grease in them now). Then i will press most of the grease out through zerks and start filling them with a good Lithium Moly #2 EP GC LB.
But I may have created a problem. When I pump the rear shaft full of grease today, after cleaning & reinstalling on the TLC. The shaft didn't extend, no grease came out the seal, but grease came out of the sleeve yoke from the cup (cap) area near the u-joint very very easely. In part, I believe this happen because it was cleaned out. But I am concerned that the pressure I put on it (when I grease it 1,000 miles ago) by driving it while it was hydro locked, caused this area to open up around the edges (I shinned a light in the yoke while cleaning and it look ok, no holes or cracks apparent) Grease is also coming out the cup area and seal of the front Propeller shaft but it takes much more pressure to make this happen.
What do you guys' think: did i screew up by driving while hydro locked?
Do you guys' see this grease coming out the end of the rear sleeve yoke cup (cap) area so easily to be a problem?
And if so what can i do about it?
The only thing i can think of is give one good wack with a hammer, but I would have to R&R the U-joint.
Two possible problems with this I am concerned with are:
1) I may not be able to fill up the cavity completely, with grease gun, through the zerk (grease possible staying only in cavity near zerk not flow all the way around spline)..
2) water infiltration (where grease is coming out of cup area of sleeve yoke) if not keep pack with grease.
Thank you guys for all you help and good advise, you guys do no your stuff.
2001LC
PS: Nmuzj100 I did see the thread on greasing, this is what made me realize i had and issue with hydro lock.
Note what I've done to my TLC
catching up for my pour service of the last 40,000 miles)I got this stuff done for about $1,450.00:
Timing belt & both pulls.
Drive belt & both pulls.
Cleaned and oil K&N filter.
Flush radiator. Toyota red.
Flushed transmission, 19 qt. Mobil 1 ATF.
Flushed power steering, 3 qt. Mobil 1 ATF.
Engine oil Synthetic Castrol 7 qt. 5W-30 and dealer filter.
T-case Gear lube 1.3qt. 75-90 mobil 1
Front Diff. Gear lube1.8qt. 75-90 mobil 1.
Rear Diff. Gear lube3.3 qt. 75-90 Mobil 1.
Replaced right front Diff axle seal.
Replaced right Front axle (CV joint) boots.
R&L axle, thrust bushings & bearings cleaned & packed, Amsoil NLIGI #1.
Packed R&L wheel bearings, new seals, gaskets, lock washers & grease caps, 1 can Mobil 1.
Left axle snap ring sized to spec. and replaced claw washer.
Removed and cleaned Front & Rear propeller shaft sleeve yokes.
Greased Propeller shaft yokes lightly, Amsoil synthetic Lithium NLGI #1.
Greased U-joints Synthetic lithium Moly NLGI #2.
Filled washer fluid.
Replaced antenna.
Checked breaks.
Cleaned and conditioned leather.
Touched up paint.
Three step wax.
Cleaned under side and engine.
Painting bare spots and rust areas underside were needed.
Rubberized wheel wells were needed.
Replaced missing bolts and fasteners.
Re toque and tightened chasse.
New tires.
Alignment.
Minor ding paint-less dent repair.
Repair minor holes leather.
New windshield, done right.
Checked all seals.
Removed some of the fake wood grain.
Not Done:
Water pump, thermostat & and front main seal, all looked very good.
Windshield wipers’, could use soon.
Clean windows, carpet & headliner.
Head lights not needed but would like.
In progress:
Grease propeller shafts with Synthetic lithium moly NLGI #1 every 500 miles or so lightly until full and flowing grease.
Will change all grease too Synthetic lithium moly grease NLGI #2 except front axle, thrust bushing & bearings which I will use NLGI #1
May go with all Amsoil; oils, ATF, greases & lubes as they have 75-90 & 80-90 gear lube and both types of grease #1 & #2. (Would like to use one brand throughout)
Biggest problem areas:
Propeller shafts were hydro locking causing thump on slow take off from stop and thump at slow speeds on minor bumps.
Rear propeller shaft cup not sealed.
Left front wheel bearing, some mechanic left the bearing adjusting nut to tight.
Very very slight pull to the right.
Cleaning the outboard CV joint, a pain.
Vibration from high low shifter.
Again: This condition was not caused by "hydro locking" on mine.
The "thump" was present when the slip joint cavities were mostly empty of grease.
It was apparently caused by "stiction" in the SJ splines, due to insufficient EP lube. (Sliding friction static/breakaway)
The thud was eliminated by overgreasing SJ with moly grease.
BTW, the note about (over)greasing when axle is at neutral ride height position is a good suggestion.
- Thread starter
- #48
tinkerer,
It was a real pleasure to drive to the office this morring without a thump.
My thump was caused by hydro lock this time. It was due to me lubing after letting the shaft(s) run dry, which must have frozen up the seals (lack of lubrication, dirt and stiffing).
Prior to lubing, I was getting a thump because the shafts were dry. note: the rear Propeller shaft spline became magnetized, I beleive, due to excessive heat and friction from runnig dry.
Prior to that, it thumped after the dealer lube it during the 60,000 service years ago when I purchased the TLC. the dealer told me the thump was normal.
Until this last week I didn't relate the thump to a propeller shaft(s) condition.
Thankfully these TLC are tuff, I don't think I've done any long term damage by running it dry for so long or the more recent hydro lock condition, hopefully.
Even the vibration of the t-case shifter has reduced in part from getting these shafts to move freely, along with flushing the transmission and changing the T-case and differentials gear lubes. It feels like a new TLC.
2001LC
It was a real pleasure to drive to the office this morring without a thump.
My thump was caused by hydro lock this time. It was due to me lubing after letting the shaft(s) run dry, which must have frozen up the seals (lack of lubrication, dirt and stiffing).
Prior to lubing, I was getting a thump because the shafts were dry. note: the rear Propeller shaft spline became magnetized, I beleive, due to excessive heat and friction from runnig dry.
Prior to that, it thumped after the dealer lube it during the 60,000 service years ago when I purchased the TLC. the dealer told me the thump was normal.
Until this last week I didn't relate the thump to a propeller shaft(s) condition.
Thankfully these TLC are tuff, I don't think I've done any long term damage by running it dry for so long or the more recent hydro lock condition, hopefully.
Even the vibration of the t-case shifter has reduced in part from getting these shafts to move freely, along with flushing the transmission and changing the T-case and differentials gear lubes. It feels like a new TLC.
2001LC
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- Thread starter
- #49
Nmuzj100
My thump is gone.
But hydro lock may have caused a problem.
Nmuzj100, Your statement on the NLGI #1 was welcome and comfirms my research, thank you for posting it.
You are dead on right, the lack of regular service was what created the issue.
I agree that the propeller shafts have not been serviced properly. This is my fault; I bought the TLC with 58,000 miles on it and had the dealer do the 60,000 mile service. I thought the seals and U-joints were sealed like on my sons' Lexus IS300. I have only been changing the oil and minor servies for the last 40,000 miles.
I have now cleaned out both front and rear Shafts and Lube with Amsoil Lithium complex EP fortified NLGI #1 GC LB. I pulled the grease zerk (the front shaft that I did last week) drop one end of the shaft and press the grease out the zerk. I notices while pressing the grease out the zerk, by hand, that some flowed out the seal, this put a smile on my face. This indicated to me that the lack of service had plugged and harden the seals. I plan on lubing these seals every week or two with just a little bit, until they both flow freely and are full. Then i will press most of the grease out through zerks and start filling them with a good Lithium Moly #1 EP GC LB and then biuld up to a number #2 next summer.
But I may have created a problem. When I pump the rear shaft full of grease today, after cleaning & reinstalling on the TLC. The shaft didn't extend, no grease came out the seal, but grease came out of the sleeve yoke from the cup (cap) area near the u-joint very very easely. In part, I believe this happen because it was cleaned out. But I am concerned that the pressure I put on it (when I grease it 1,000 miles ago) by driving it while it was hydro locked, caused this area to open up around the edges (I shinned a light in the yoke while cleaning and it look ok, no holes or cracks apparent) Grease is also coming out the cup area and seal of the front Propeller shaft but it takes much more pressure to make this happen.
What do you think: did i screew up by driving while hydro locked?
Do you see this grease coming out the end of the rear sleeve yoke cup (cap) area so easily to be a problem?
And if so what can i do about it?
I will grease it when hot, mayby the heat will expaned the cup at the end of the yoke giving me a better seal.
The only other thing i can think of is give the cup one good wack with a hammer, but I would have to R&R the U-joint.
Two possible problems with this I am concerned with are:
1) I may not be able to fill up the cavity completely, with grease gun, through the zerk (grease possible staying only in cavity near zerk not flow all the way around spline)..
2) water infiltration (where grease is coming out of cup area of sleeve yoke) if not keep pack with grease.
Thank you for you help, you do no your stuff.
2001LC
PS: Nmuzj100 I did see the thread on greasing, this is what made me realize i had and issue with hydro lock.
Ok, My turn to chime in.
As some of you may know I have a 200 series.
Could the shaft not be greased on mine properly with only 1300 miles on it?
I am getting the thump from underneath and thought it was the tranny until I did some searching under thump or clunk in the forum.
I would like to think it would be unheard of in a new LC but then again....
So how exactly should I approach this with the service area?
Obviously I can explain what it sounds like, but I would like to sound intelligent about what exactly I think the issues is and how it should be looked at. Also how it can possibly be fixed.
From some of the searching I have done it seems to be a normal issue for LC's. So I would love to go in there and make it seem that I have been through this before and this is how it was fixed, etc.
Thanks
As some of you may know I have a 200 series.
Could the shaft not be greased on mine properly with only 1300 miles on it?
I am getting the thump from underneath and thought it was the tranny until I did some searching under thump or clunk in the forum.
I would like to think it would be unheard of in a new LC but then again....
So how exactly should I approach this with the service area?
Obviously I can explain what it sounds like, but I would like to sound intelligent about what exactly I think the issues is and how it should be looked at. Also how it can possibly be fixed.
From some of the searching I have done it seems to be a normal issue for LC's. So I would love to go in there and make it seem that I have been through this before and this is how it was fixed, etc.
Thanks
Very possible, lots of complaints on Taco and Tundra boards about drivetrains being under lubed when new. Lubing properly solves the problems.
Ask them the $64,000 question....
"Should my $64,000 truck thunk ?"
When the 100 was a new model several of the fixes involved changing out whole gear boxes so the fixes for some problems (even small ones) can get pretty extreme. Thats the fun of being leading edge.
I still want to know if anyone can say for certain that a failure was caused by greasing slip joints per FSM.
(FSM: Pump slip joint full of grease until grease seen coming out past seal.)
Everybody is concerned about doing this, for reasons of thrust load on thrust bearings etc. But can anyone say for certain that a thrust bearing failure was definitely caused by pumping slip joint full of grease?
The bearings are designed to handle thrust load. The question is, how much? Versus how much thrust load is applied by slip joints full of grease?
(FSM: Pump slip joint full of grease until grease seen coming out past seal.)
Everybody is concerned about doing this, for reasons of thrust load on thrust bearings etc. But can anyone say for certain that a thrust bearing failure was definitely caused by pumping slip joint full of grease?
The bearings are designed to handle thrust load. The question is, how much? Versus how much thrust load is applied by slip joints full of grease?
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The slip joint is not a shock absorber designed to protect the T-Case. My guess is very few cases of "hydrolock" if they exist at all have resulted in damage. The truck seems just as likely to transfer a damaging amount of force when insufficiently lubricated and "thunking".
If actually "hydrolocked" wouldn't the drive shaft severely limit rear axle travel and result in very poor and noticeable handling and ride problems.
Posters on the board claim to feel the power difference between premium and regular!
Surely they would notice if the rear suspension was totally inoperable.
If actually "hydrolocked" wouldn't the drive shaft severely limit rear axle travel and result in very poor and noticeable handling and ride problems.
Posters on the board claim to feel the power difference between premium and regular!
Surely they would notice if the rear suspension was totally inoperable.
- Thread starter
- #55
My point was exactly that, the engineers would not design the propeller shafts to act as shock absorbers, but to move as freely as possible while not allowing contaminants in through the seals.The slip joint is not a shock absorber designed to protect the T-Case. My guess is very few cases of "hydrolock" if they exist at all have resulted in damage. The truck seems just as likely to transfer a damaging amount of force when insufficiently lubricated and "thunking".
If actually "hydrolocked" wouldn't the drive shaft severely limit rear axle travel and result in very poor and noticeable handling and ride problems.
Posters on the board claim to feel the power difference between premium and regular!
I was a mechanic as a teenager many years ago, for a short time, even went to school for it, working on cars from the 50s, 60s and early 1970s. As I recall the sleeve yoke slipped into the back of the transmission and was designed to move freely with zero back pressure during the normal in and out movement that is caused by movement of the rear axle. The reason for this was to allow the rear axle to move freely without transferring force (pressure) on the drive shaft or transmission.
As far as causing damage to drive train components, it was reading through threads here at IH8MUD that I first became aware that the thump or thud was a propeller shaft issue and that at least one poster here believes it was responsible for over $2,000 in damage.
Once I eliminated my hydro lock issue the thump went away and the drivability improve as I noticed the ride was smother (less rigid)
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- Thread starter
- #56
IMO hydro locking will cause damage; the amount will depend on how much force is delivered to the propeller shaft via the rear axle movement and how much pressure is developed when the seal is 100% hydro locked as opposed to allowing some pressure relief at the seal. Stiction is another subject but the outcome can be the same under extreme circumstances, as both may cause the propeller shaft to act as a solid ram not allowing normal compression as design for.
- Thread starter
- #57
Once I eliminated my hydro lock issue the thump went away and the drivability improve as I noticed the ride was smother (less rigid)
When I first bought my TLC I had the dealer do the 60,000 mile which included lubing the shafts, after this I notice a thump on take off. I assumed that I had purchased a TLC that, for one reason or another, had worn parts throughout the drive train and the thump was being caused by the slack being taken up, the dealer told me the thump was normal. I developed a driving style to try and reduce the impact to my drive train (slow take off and stops which did wonders for my gas mileage and brake pads) I have only now found out (while doing my 90,000 mile service myself) that the thump was do to my propeller shaft hydro locking.
IMO propeller shafts not moving in and out of the sleeve yoke relatively easy (as designed for) will at minimum reduce the life of the components’ it puts forces on. That the greater the force the greater the damage. How much force the components’ have been design for, I don’t know. I have learned that they were not designed to handle the force caused by hydro locking, stiction or dry shafts put on them.
IMO the FSM is correct in stating to lube until grease passes out the seal. The seal is designed to keep water out and pump dust and grim out of the outer lip with grease from the inner lip as suggested by NMuzj100 & Tinkerer in a previous post. You should be able to look at the shafts and see a thin layer of fresh grease on the sleeve along the length of travel and you should not hear a thump on take off or stop. My FSM doesn’t say to keep the weight of the vehicle on the axles when lubing, but IMO should, as this would keep the amount of grease going into the cavity full with the vehicle in a neutral position. But then again if my seals were working properly then they would just easily pump out the excess grease during a short drive until a neutral pressure was developed.
I do have some damage to the drive train, how extensive I don’t know, except for one point which is the cap in the back of the sleeve yoke. When I grease my propeller shafts the grease follows out the back of the sleeve yoke around this cap, which became much more pronounced when I pulled the shaft apart and clean them. IMO was due to the excessive force caused by hydro locking, causing the cap(s) too bow out from excessive pressure, loosening the seal around the edge of the cap. The cap seal that was created when pressed in by the OEM of the sleeve yoke. The ease at which grease flows out the caps is much more apparent in the rear than the front, which makes sense as the rear propeller shaft takes all the force that the normal rear axle movement produces. The good part is that this helped eliminate the excessive pressure (hydro lock) and thus the thump. The bad news is that; when I lube, the grease is not flowing down around the spline/teeth and back up along the outer portion of the sleeve inside of the dust cover and out the seal, it just comes out the cap which is right next to the grease zerk. One other bad point is the potential for water to enter (be sucked in) when the sleeve yoke is under negative pressure, such as would happen when the propeller shaft is being extended while under water (up a river). This is one of the reasons I am switching to a moly grease, which is not recommended in the 2001 FSM, as moly will continue to lube when wet. Another reasons I am switching to moly grease was due too your suggestion NMuzj100 & Tinkerer in and earlier post that moly may help with stiction and hydro locking, which makes senses IMO. Moly is also believed to have some restorative effect on metal parts under pressure as noted in a link I posted earlier.
IMO hydro locking will cause damage; the amount will depend on how much force is delivered to the propeller shaft via the rear axle movement and how much pressure is developed when the seal is 100% hydro locked.
When I first bought my TLC I had the dealer do the 60,000 mile which included lubing the shafts, after this I notice a thump on take off. I assumed that I had purchased a TLC that, for one reason or another, had worn parts throughout the drive train and the thump was being caused by the slack being taken up, the dealer told me the thump was normal. I developed a driving style to try and reduce the impact to my drive train (slow take off and stops which did wonders for my gas mileage and brake pads) I have only now found out (while doing my 90,000 mile service myself) that the thump was do to my propeller shaft hydro locking.
IMO propeller shafts not moving in and out of the sleeve yoke relatively easy (as designed for) will at minimum reduce the life of the components’ it puts forces on. That the greater the force the greater the damage. How much force the components’ have been design for, I don’t know. I have learned that they were not designed to handle the force caused by hydro locking, stiction or dry shafts put on them.
IMO the FSM is correct in stating to lube until grease passes out the seal. The seal is designed to keep water out and pump dust and grim out of the outer lip with grease from the inner lip as suggested by NMuzj100 & Tinkerer in a previous post. You should be able to look at the shafts and see a thin layer of fresh grease on the sleeve along the length of travel and you should not hear a thump on take off or stop. My FSM doesn’t say to keep the weight of the vehicle on the axles when lubing, but IMO should, as this would keep the amount of grease going into the cavity full with the vehicle in a neutral position. But then again if my seals were working properly then they would just easily pump out the excess grease during a short drive until a neutral pressure was developed.
I do have some damage to the drive train, how extensive I don’t know, except for one point which is the cap in the back of the sleeve yoke. When I grease my propeller shafts the grease follows out the back of the sleeve yoke around this cap, which became much more pronounced when I pulled the shaft apart and clean them. IMO was due to the excessive force caused by hydro locking, causing the cap(s) too bow out from excessive pressure, loosening the seal around the edge of the cap. The cap seal that was created when pressed in by the OEM of the sleeve yoke. The ease at which grease flows out the caps is much more apparent in the rear than the front, which makes sense as the rear propeller shaft takes all the force that the normal rear axle movement produces. The good part is that this helped eliminate the excessive pressure (hydro lock) and thus the thump. The bad news is that; when I lube, the grease is not flowing down around the spline/teeth and back up along the outer portion of the sleeve inside of the dust cover and out the seal, it just comes out the cap which is right next to the grease zerk. One other bad point is the potential for water to enter (be sucked in) when the sleeve yoke is under negative pressure, such as would happen when the propeller shaft is being extended while under water (up a river). This is one of the reasons I am switching to a moly grease, which is not recommended in the 2001 FSM, as moly will continue to lube when wet. Another reasons I am switching to moly grease was due too your suggestion NMuzj100 & Tinkerer in and earlier post that moly may help with stiction and hydro locking, which makes senses IMO. Moly is also believed to have some restorative effect on metal parts under pressure as noted in a link I posted earlier.
IMO hydro locking will cause damage; the amount will depend on how much force is delivered to the propeller shaft via the rear axle movement and how much pressure is developed when the seal is 100% hydro locked.
- Thread starter
- #58
By the way thank you for the heads up on the Moly grease:whoops:By the way - make sure you don't ingest the moly. It is somewhat toxic. (Regular plain grease probably won't hurt you if you forget to wash your hands before eating with your hands, but additives like moly should be avoided in your diet.
I am trying to do basic drive shaft maintenance on my 2004 LX470.
I have read the "official clunk thread" and a bunch of other posts about proper maintenance of our "drive shafts" and i think i understand the basics but there are still a couple of things im not perfectly clear on.
Here is what i think i understand... If i get an NGLI #2 lithium based grease i can use that in the Spiders and Slide Yoke. If i wanted to go the extra mile i could get a second grease gun and grease the Slide Yoke with a moly fortified grease for extra protection but this is not required and i should not use the moly fortified Grease in the spiders because that could cause damage. If i run into trouble and grease doesn't seem to be moving past the seals i can up the interval and use the lighter more viscous NGLI #1 grease until it frees up any clogged old grease and i can switch back to NGLI #2
If this seems right ill go get under my rig and start pumping. Any advice or correction would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!!
I have read the "official clunk thread" and a bunch of other posts about proper maintenance of our "drive shafts" and i think i understand the basics but there are still a couple of things im not perfectly clear on.
Here is what i think i understand... If i get an NGLI #2 lithium based grease i can use that in the Spiders and Slide Yoke. If i wanted to go the extra mile i could get a second grease gun and grease the Slide Yoke with a moly fortified grease for extra protection but this is not required and i should not use the moly fortified Grease in the spiders because that could cause damage. If i run into trouble and grease doesn't seem to be moving past the seals i can up the interval and use the lighter more viscous NGLI #1 grease until it frees up any clogged old grease and i can switch back to NGLI #2
If this seems right ill go get under my rig and start pumping. Any advice or correction would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!!
I would just get under there and start pumping man. I use NGLI #2 on all my zerks, dont need to overthink it.