Holly Crap......this aint a good thing!
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- #22
I can pull the records(also Al in parts can pull all the parts used) 1st tube seal leaked when under wanrantee, around 30k, I am failry sure they were replaced because there was no leaking untill 60k, don't think even a new wiper seal would have keep the greese in that long. I can't remember if its just been one side thats leaked or both or one or the other.
I will be asking to check the bushing as well.
Yeah I don't know why the tube seals have gone, I suspected the same as you the axle isn't running true.
Heck on my 92 that i have used hard, I have only done the tube seals twice(2nd time becuase I was in there for diff work, figured change it out just because. Heck I have done all my own bif maintence on all my Cruisers......never had a stud loosen up. Been many years sense I have done a 80.
I looking forward to the call from the dealer today.
and even if we get stuck with the bill(and we wont) its alot better than what could have happened........money is just money, I only got one mom
[quote author=IdahoDoug link=board=2;threadid=12951;start=msg119761#msg119761 date=1079061920]
Pimp,
The ever suspicious birf service guy in me wonders if they actually replaced the inner axle seal this last time or ever. If you have an itemized receipt to check for these seals it might be worth it as 20k is WAAAY low for that life, and I know of many front axle seal jobs where they skip this out of ignorance. They think the felts are the source of the leak because that's where the stuff's coming out of. So they replace these and wonder what the little 0 seal in the kit is for (tossing into the trash).
As for the shims, the 40s can be shimmed top and bottom and there's a dealer tool to guide their shim choice, but the 80 is only shimmed on the bottom. My 80 and most I've discussed this with have a shim on both sides (bottom only) that should simply be put back on reassembly. Unfortunately, if a tech loses one or decides he doesn't need to replace it and tosses it there is no way to measure it as this is a factory tool the dealers cannot get (according to a TMS USA buddy a few years ago). I bought a few shims for my repack and did some careful calculations to determine my left inner axle seal wore a bit at the 12 o'clock position and corrected accordingly. I'll know how I did on the next repack (still slight wear at 12 and I'll add another shim, switched seal wear to 6 I'll put in a thinner shim, etc). The right side was dead center wear. If you get a good tech, it would be nice to have him pull it out without destroying it and try to assess where the wear is. Then you can call me (PM me for my phone) and I'll tell you what to tell him as to shimming. It took me a long time to figure this out. He'll not likely have the shims on hand unless he orders them in advance. If the seal was indeed replaced 20k ago, then you must have an axle that's offset quite a bit in the tip of the axle housing and that would also explain the short seal life. Not sure you'll be able to pull all this off in the context of the dealer righting their wrong, etc but I'll help in any way for first right of refusal when your Mom sells....heh.
By the way, I suspect inner axle seal wear and condition of the bronze spindle bushing are directly related.
DougM
[/quote]
I will be asking to check the bushing as well.
Yeah I don't know why the tube seals have gone, I suspected the same as you the axle isn't running true.
Heck on my 92 that i have used hard, I have only done the tube seals twice(2nd time becuase I was in there for diff work, figured change it out just because. Heck I have done all my own bif maintence on all my Cruisers......never had a stud loosen up. Been many years sense I have done a 80.
I looking forward to the call from the dealer today.
and even if we get stuck with the bill(and we wont) its alot better than what could have happened........money is just money, I only got one mom
[quote author=IdahoDoug link=board=2;threadid=12951;start=msg119761#msg119761 date=1079061920]
Pimp,
The ever suspicious birf service guy in me wonders if they actually replaced the inner axle seal this last time or ever. If you have an itemized receipt to check for these seals it might be worth it as 20k is WAAAY low for that life, and I know of many front axle seal jobs where they skip this out of ignorance. They think the felts are the source of the leak because that's where the stuff's coming out of. So they replace these and wonder what the little 0 seal in the kit is for (tossing into the trash).
As for the shims, the 40s can be shimmed top and bottom and there's a dealer tool to guide their shim choice, but the 80 is only shimmed on the bottom. My 80 and most I've discussed this with have a shim on both sides (bottom only) that should simply be put back on reassembly. Unfortunately, if a tech loses one or decides he doesn't need to replace it and tosses it there is no way to measure it as this is a factory tool the dealers cannot get (according to a TMS USA buddy a few years ago). I bought a few shims for my repack and did some careful calculations to determine my left inner axle seal wore a bit at the 12 o'clock position and corrected accordingly. I'll know how I did on the next repack (still slight wear at 12 and I'll add another shim, switched seal wear to 6 I'll put in a thinner shim, etc). The right side was dead center wear. If you get a good tech, it would be nice to have him pull it out without destroying it and try to assess where the wear is. Then you can call me (PM me for my phone) and I'll tell you what to tell him as to shimming. It took me a long time to figure this out. He'll not likely have the shims on hand unless he orders them in advance. If the seal was indeed replaced 20k ago, then you must have an axle that's offset quite a bit in the tip of the axle housing and that would also explain the short seal life. Not sure you'll be able to pull all this off in the context of the dealer righting their wrong, etc but I'll help in any way for first right of refusal when your Mom sells....heh.
By the way, I suspect inner axle seal wear and condition of the bronze spindle bushing are directly related.
DougM
[/quote]
Pimp, that definitely looks like gear oil contamination although I guess it could be very goopy grease. The stud backing out has happened to me twice when removing those lower bolts so I check every stud now. After it had come that loose and been driven I would be inclined to also replace the cone wahsers as a precaution. I have used loctite to hold the loose studs in, although someone here suggested that might be inappropriate.
Those wiper seals do not look like they are only 20k old on a mall cruiser. If I am correct I am also suspicious they did not replace the inner oil seal. I have been lied to about this before although not by one of Mr. T's guys.
When they pull the birf they should be able to see if there is wear on the axle where it meets the seal. There should be a worn ridge in the axle to explain the inner oil seal failure. Slee has posted about a technique for sleeving the axle to avoid a replacement. You should be able to safely buy one used from a wrecker specifying no wear.
Those wiper seals do not look like they are only 20k old on a mall cruiser. If I am correct I am also suspicious they did not replace the inner oil seal. I have been lied to about this before although not by one of Mr. T's guys.
When they pull the birf they should be able to see if there is wear on the axle where it meets the seal. There should be a worn ridge in the axle to explain the inner oil seal failure. Slee has posted about a technique for sleeving the axle to avoid a replacement. You should be able to safely buy one used from a wrecker specifying no wear.
>> Slee has posted about a technique for sleeving the axle to avoid a replacement. <<
Simon,
Do you have a link to this post? My trail spare axles have a slight groove and getting them "fixed" might be a good move in case they ever have to go in the truck.
-B-
Simon,
Do you have a link to this post? My trail spare axles have a slight groove and getting them "fixed" might be a good move in case they ever have to go in the truck.
-B-
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- #25
guys, thanks for all your help. I want to make something clear..........I KNOW the axle tube seal is leaking and the gear and knuckle lube have mixxed.
I agree the wiper seals don't look like 20k. but "supposedly" they were done...........but they might have lied....
this dealer use to be very good but they might just be going down hill. Last summer I took my fj60 in for the EGR cooler pipe gasket to be replaced, I had done the one on my fj40 and didn't enjoy it(if you have ever done one you will understand), so I said OK.......I'll let the dealer to this one. I even talked to the tech before he started. I get a call mid day from service...."ummm sorry but we had to take a air chisel to the pipe and now we can't get it off.......can you come pick it up?" WTF? NO you WILL fix it! finaly they did.....after I told them to take the cooler off the block. OK so I had one more to do on anohter 40, I was at Walts Muffler getting a cat put on and just out of curiousity I asked if they had done this before, sure, the book says its 3/4 hour job, I told them that was VERY optimistic. But I said, heck I give em a shot, I gave them a new pipe and gasket. Droped it off, got a call an hour latter.....it was done and they didn't need the pipe! So some kid with almostt no training did what it took the dealer 3+ hours to do.......and they dealer tech had giving up! How sad is that?
heard yesterday from a budyy with a fj80, his wife had the oil changed at this same dealer.........got home and had to add 5 qts!!!!
I agree the wiper seals don't look like 20k. but "supposedly" they were done...........but they might have lied....
this dealer use to be very good but they might just be going down hill. Last summer I took my fj60 in for the EGR cooler pipe gasket to be replaced, I had done the one on my fj40 and didn't enjoy it(if you have ever done one you will understand), so I said OK.......I'll let the dealer to this one. I even talked to the tech before he started. I get a call mid day from service...."ummm sorry but we had to take a air chisel to the pipe and now we can't get it off.......can you come pick it up?" WTF? NO you WILL fix it! finaly they did.....after I told them to take the cooler off the block. OK so I had one more to do on anohter 40, I was at Walts Muffler getting a cat put on and just out of curiousity I asked if they had done this before, sure, the book says its 3/4 hour job, I told them that was VERY optimistic. But I said, heck I give em a shot, I gave them a new pipe and gasket. Droped it off, got a call an hour latter.....it was done and they didn't need the pipe! So some kid with almostt no training did what it took the dealer 3+ hours to do.......and they dealer tech had giving up! How sad is that?
heard yesterday from a budyy with a fj80, his wife had the oil changed at this same dealer.........got home and had to add 5 qts!!!!
Yes,.....and the tire/wheel/rotor/spindle/knuckle/birf comes off.
Not completely out of control. You know that you are headed straight for the ditch or straight into oncoming traffic.
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- #29
just got back from the dealer, I had a chance to look at all the parts, birfield has no odd wear, nothing else odd.
So after a bit of confusion........the dealer is paying for it, including new parts, studs, seals, bearings, cone washers, ect ect. They never took any blame, but did say they had no explanation for what happened and had never seen anything like it before. they do work on ALOT of 80s....this i know, musst have been 10 in the back today, even a 60 and 62. So while they didn't take blame or point blame.........they are fixxing it, be done monday.
Service manager wasnt very clear at 1st, he said we(meaning them) ordered parts......never made it clear who was paying, me I took it as we were gonna be on the hook, so I keep asking how do you explain what happend(trying to get him to say, yeah it has to be because it wasn't put back toghether right)........he couldn't.....so I keep asking, finaly he realized....he never did tell me they were paying for it........we both felt kinda stupid as we were arguing.....about nothing
So after a bit of confusion........the dealer is paying for it, including new parts, studs, seals, bearings, cone washers, ect ect. They never took any blame, but did say they had no explanation for what happened and had never seen anything like it before. they do work on ALOT of 80s....this i know, musst have been 10 in the back today, even a 60 and 62. So while they didn't take blame or point blame.........they are fixxing it, be done monday.
Service manager wasnt very clear at 1st, he said we(meaning them) ordered parts......never made it clear who was paying, me I took it as we were gonna be on the hook, so I keep asking how do you explain what happend(trying to get him to say, yeah it has to be because it wasn't put back toghether right)........he couldn't.....so I keep asking, finaly he realized....he never did tell me they were paying for it........we both felt kinda stupid as we were arguing.....about nothing
Pimp,
The outer sweep seals (felt/rubber/metal) might indeed keep it in for a while. The flow seems to be that when the inner axle seal (tube seal) fails, the vacuum created by the front axle vent continues to draw birf grease into the diff and burp it out the vent. After this has gone on for a long time, the vent eventually clogs and stops allowing air out during the axle's heating cycle (the cooling creates the vacuum when the flapper closes). Once this happens, the cycle becomes partially pressure in the front axle during the heat cycle (against the now clogged vent) and this begins pushing diff oil out into the birf and it starts running out the triple sweep seal. I theorized this years ago and it was borne out by a friend's 80. He paid $650 a side for an independant to replace all the seals. About 18 months later, it suddenly (very suddenly) began gushing out the sweep seals again with a vengeance. When pressed, the guy admitted he did not know there was a seal behind the birfield (which he also by proxy admitted he did not pull, clean and repack). It would be a good thing if your tech could put a piece of wire around the 9 o'clock position of the inner axle seal (tube seal) and try to avoid trashing it so you can see the wear pattern. This would only take about 2 minutes of extra care on his part and provide you with invaluable information about where the axle is running within the seal. I expressly chose 9 because the seal is most likely to be running against either the 6 or 12 positions. You might also do them the favor of alerting them to the metal bracket inside the axle housing tip that they could break loose if carelessly inserting the axle. That's a nightmare they would be well advised to avoid.
Later,
The outer sweep seals (felt/rubber/metal) might indeed keep it in for a while. The flow seems to be that when the inner axle seal (tube seal) fails, the vacuum created by the front axle vent continues to draw birf grease into the diff and burp it out the vent. After this has gone on for a long time, the vent eventually clogs and stops allowing air out during the axle's heating cycle (the cooling creates the vacuum when the flapper closes). Once this happens, the cycle becomes partially pressure in the front axle during the heat cycle (against the now clogged vent) and this begins pushing diff oil out into the birf and it starts running out the triple sweep seal. I theorized this years ago and it was borne out by a friend's 80. He paid $650 a side for an independant to replace all the seals. About 18 months later, it suddenly (very suddenly) began gushing out the sweep seals again with a vengeance. When pressed, the guy admitted he did not know there was a seal behind the birfield (which he also by proxy admitted he did not pull, clean and repack). It would be a good thing if your tech could put a piece of wire around the 9 o'clock position of the inner axle seal (tube seal) and try to avoid trashing it so you can see the wear pattern. This would only take about 2 minutes of extra care on his part and provide you with invaluable information about where the axle is running within the seal. I expressly chose 9 because the seal is most likely to be running against either the 6 or 12 positions. You might also do them the favor of alerting them to the metal bracket inside the axle housing tip that they could break loose if carelessly inserting the axle. That's a nightmare they would be well advised to avoid.
Later,
Now how do you properly replace the wipers without taking out the birfield? IdahoDoug That mechanic sounded great.
Also this metal bracket that you speak of, is the one that is about an inch past where the oil seal goes? How would this break if one were careless? Is it that weak? I'm a bit frightened now.
Also this metal bracket that you speak of, is the one that is about an inch past where the oil seal goes? How would this break if one were careless? Is it that weak? I'm a bit frightened now.
Derek,
When it happened, I spent some time thinking about it. The knuckle top cap can be removed, the bottom cap tapped off. Then the knuckle housing simply slides off over the axle that's left in place after removing the 6 or so bolts that hold the triple seal's retainer (the metal ring) in place.
As to the bracket, yes that's the part. It is evidently there as a guide to help take the weight of the longer left side axle shaft as you put it in. But if you slam it with the axle upon insertion, you're generating enormous force and can break it loose. Or, if you don't use some care and try to lift the axle as best you can (which should be done in any case to go easy on the new axle seal), you might also cause it grief. I don't think it's fragile, but the axle shaft is heavy and it's wise to take care considering the significant can o'worms it would open. I think both Semlin and Christo struggled with this issue. So, no need to worry, just be aware of it when removing or replacing the axle shaft - no worries.
DougM
When it happened, I spent some time thinking about it. The knuckle top cap can be removed, the bottom cap tapped off. Then the knuckle housing simply slides off over the axle that's left in place after removing the 6 or so bolts that hold the triple seal's retainer (the metal ring) in place.
As to the bracket, yes that's the part. It is evidently there as a guide to help take the weight of the longer left side axle shaft as you put it in. But if you slam it with the axle upon insertion, you're generating enormous force and can break it loose. Or, if you don't use some care and try to lift the axle as best you can (which should be done in any case to go easy on the new axle seal), you might also cause it grief. I don't think it's fragile, but the axle shaft is heavy and it's wise to take care considering the significant can o'worms it would open. I think both Semlin and Christo struggled with this issue. So, no need to worry, just be aware of it when removing or replacing the axle shaft - no worries.
DougM
[quote author=IdahoDoug link=board=2;threadid=12951;start=msg120443#msg120443 date=1079155174]When it happened, I spent some time thinking about it. The knuckle top cap can be removed, the bottom cap tapped off. Then the knuckle housing simply slides off over the axle that's left in place after removing the 6 or so bolts that hold the triple seal's retainer (the metal ring) in place.[/quote]
That sounds like the hard way to me. You would need to be pretty lazy to tear down the hub/knuckle that much to just leave the axle in place. Of course it never ceases to amaze me as to what people do.
Thanks Doug for the follow up on the metal bracket. When I was reinserting my axles after rebuilding my knuckles I was extra careful to avoid scraping the axles on that bracket, which was pretty much impossible. I just didn't like the though of metal on metal scraping while I was inserting the axle shafts. At the time I theorized that those brackets might be there to keep oil from pushing against the oil seal, kind of like a pre seal or baffle.
That sounds like the hard way to me. You would need to be pretty lazy to tear down the hub/knuckle that much to just leave the axle in place. Of course it never ceases to amaze me as to what people do.
Thanks Doug for the follow up on the metal bracket. When I was reinserting my axles after rebuilding my knuckles I was extra careful to avoid scraping the axles on that bracket, which was pretty much impossible. I just didn't like the though of metal on metal scraping while I was inserting the axle shafts. At the time I theorized that those brackets might be there to keep oil from pushing against the oil seal, kind of like a pre seal or baffle.