High Steer Kit and Panhard Correction

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V

vwhammer

10 Year
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Aug 8, 2014
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I brought this up in another thread but it was kind of mixed in with some other stuff and it didn't really get discussed much.
Much like the What's-a-snorkles-main-purpose argument I feel like there is a similar argument for what purpose does a high steer kit serve.
The cool answer for a snorkle is so you can drive in water over your hood and just keep movin when the debate and less cool answer is its main design purpose was to get the air intake up out of the dust so you're not sucking as much into the filters.

For high steer kits the cool answer is they get your steering components up and out of the way so they are not the first thing you bash into rocks and junk while really bashing off road.
However, in reality it corrects bump steer issues on nearly any lifted rig.

So I am lifting my 80.
I got all the normal parts, springs, shocks, rear panhard correction kit, caster correction kit and basically that's about it.
I always hear how critical it is to correct the rear panhard bar angle because it will ride like an old wooden roller coaster if you don't but you never hear anyone bring up correcting the fron't panhard bar.
would it not behave just as poorly after a lift as the rear?
I suspect that the answer is yes it is an issue but it is not as simple or cheap to fix as the rear so it gets swept under the rug and becomes a non-issue once you get your fancy new wheels and tires on there to distract from your bad front suspension geometry.

As I mentioned and as many of you know a high steer kit and some panhard mount mods can easily correct the bumpsteer and ride quality issues.
Not a cheap or simple fix but it does work.
So I have been looking at this kit from Front Range Off Road
Front Range High Steer Kit
Yep it's $1000 but I feel like its the only real solution that I found that works for what I would like to do.
Basically I just want to run the high steer kit so I can get the drag link mounted up higher.
Then I can adjust the panhard bar to match the new angle.
I have no intentions of moving the tie-rod to the front as I feel like its in a pretty protected position in the rear.

I guess it would look a bit like this pic from @cruisermatt
80 with high steer no front tie rod.webp

Honestly after typing all this up I feel like I am not real sure what questions I had that I could not answer myself.
Now that I found cruisermatt's pic, it kind of already answered anything I could think of.
Like why would you run the tie rod out front when its already tucked behind the axle and out of the way?
I suppose if you were going big lift and needed serious caster correction then maybe the axle rotation might cause interference between the tie rod and radius arm but It seems like there is a bit of room there.

Anyway is there anything I am overlooking on doing high steer and some panhard work?
Other than the cost and the work what are the downsides?
 
Everything you wrote before the picture is all correct and it sounds like you have a pretty good understanding of the progression of things.

the reason to move the tie rod in front of the axle is to make room for proper lower link geomtery when 3-linking which is the next big step in the direction you are going.

If you are going to use those FROR arms/knuckles there's no good provision for a lower/rear-mounted tie-rod unless you could mount the 80 series lower steering arms to them? Haven't seen anyone do that. You'd still have the weak point of the lower knuckle studs which is the huge upgrade you get with those knuckles, so I don't see the benefit of keeping the tie rod in the rear of the axle

The big thing I would recommend doing differently then what I did on the Winter Jamboree 80 pictured above is spending the time to get more panhard length, we were in kind of a rush when we did it but it really should be 5-7" longer ideally.
 
Oh I did not realize that you could not bolt the lower tie rod mounts back on.
They don't really show that or mention it on their product page.

Otherwise yes my plan was to move the axle mount up and slightly forward just enough to clear the spring and move the frame side down just a bit and outward as well as forward to match the forward reposition of the axle side mount.
Probbaly net about 3 inches more length over the stock panhard bar.
I've twisted and turned and measured the front of this so many times and so far I have not seen any thing that would lead me to believe that this is not possible.
The lower steering arm thing does kinda wreck my whole plan though.
I might have known this if FROR would reply to any of my questions.
Glad I did not already order them a couple weeks ago when I started looking at them.
They are only 30 minutes up the road but I gotta find a time during work hours that I can get up there to check some stuff out in person.

What other options exist to do what I want?
Build my own high steer set up that keeps the lower steering arms I guess.

For the record this is primarily my off road camp rig and I do not nor do I plan to do any hard core wheeling or rock bashing in it.
It does go off road and many of the places I have gone in my other rigs have had some moderate obstacles at times, hence the want for more height and bigger tires on this build.
I just want to get the ride, handling and geometry back as close to stock as I can after the lift.
 
How much lift and what is final planned tire size? I’m not sure you will see the benefit of all this with your goals. In my opinion
 
cruisermatt said:
How much lift and what is final planned tire size? I’m not sure you will see the benefit of all this with your goals. In my opinion
Click to expand...
Yeah realistically I don't need this.
I thought if there was a semi-bolt-on-low-fab-required solution then I was gonna do it.
You see, I have this obsessive trait where I fixate on things that can be optimized and can't stop thinking about it.
Most people never mess with any of this stuff and I am sure its fine.
At this point with no "simple" solution then I will likey not take it to this extend at this time.
Only planning on 2 inches of lift and currently running 35s.
I can probably get by with an adjustable panhard bar in the front.
 
For your goals and use I wouldn't get into it too much. Spend the time on a trip, not in the shop
 
I'd leave the factory panhard mounts and steering arms where they're at for a 2" lift and 35's. But if you want something to fixate on, you should add some reinforcement plates on your driver's side frame around the steering box, port your steering box, and add a 1" hydro assist ram on the tie-rod. :cool:

I think you hit the right points, people rarely correct the roll-center on the front suspension after lift because packaging suspension arms, steering arms, and a track bar is complicated and the factory setup is close enough to work at a 2" lift. The people who do it are redesigning the whole front suspension and steering, not just making a correction for the lift height.

If you're dead set on correcting the front roll center, another option would be to keep the factory steering arms, source a drop pitman arm to lower the steering-box-side of the draglink, and then fab up your panhard mounts to match the new draglink angle and to move your roll center up or down (I think up would be preferred, that seems to be the consensus on what to do in the rear for a 2" lift). The roll center is located at the center point of a straight line between the frame side and axle side panhard mounts. I don't think there is real estate directly above the factory axle side panhard mount, but if there is that would be the preferred move I think (raise the axle side panhard mount the same amount that you drop the steering box side drag link end).
 
Will hop on the bandwagon of "leave well enough alone".

Lots (and I mean lots) of customers put a 3" lift, a 3" panhard lift bracket in the rear, correct caster up front, and drive happily into the sunset.

AS SOON AS you start messing with steering geometry, you have messed with steering geometry and will likely be unhappy with the result.
 
4" lift with Delta 3L arms and Delta panhard bracket with 37s= happy camper

3" lift with Delta 3 arms and Delta panhard bracket with 315s= happy camper
 
Thanks for the tips folks.
So I have 35s on right now with no lift.
I've actually heard them rub more on the highway when hitting full width dips at speed than I have off road with flexing the axles.
Basically they are hitting just inside the fender lips when the rig bounces straight up and down.
I will probably do a bit of clearancing in the future but we'll see what happens after the lift.
I could likely do a little bump stop adjustment but I don't want to limit up travel too much just yet. I'll get to that in a sec.
Another question I have is in regard to the adjustable panhard rod in the front to get the axle evened up under the truck.
I could probably go take a couple measurements and get the number I am looking for but how much does the axle shift with a 2 inch lift?

I probably should have mentioned earlier that this will eventually have a full air suspension.
However I am doing normal coil springs for now so I can get out this spring and summer and work on the new suspension over the winter.
With my set up the hope is that I can drop the rig down a bit for on road use and definitely be able to bump it up beyond the 2 inch lift if I need to off road.
With that said I might not even do the adjustable front bar so when I drop it down for road use it will more or less be at stock height and geometry and everything will be mint.

Once again I am thinking too much about all this stuff.
like who cares if the front axle is where it needs to be when lowered when the rear will be shifted when lowered once I do the correction in the rear after the lift.

Anyway I will just keep thinking and really figure out what I am going for here.
For now it gets coils and a rear panhard correction and no front correction or possibly an adjustable bar.
Then I wheel it and see how it goes.
I'll then take that input and apply it to the air suspension.
I think you guys are gonna dig the air suspension.
It's got a few cool features but I will probably cover that in my build thread when the time comes.
 
Your over thinking on a 2" lift! 🤦

You don't even need panhard correction on a 2" lift nor caster correction.
 
vwhammer said:
I probably should have mentioned earlier that this will eventually have a full air suspension.
Click to expand...
I've been idly thinking about airbag suspension in the back of my head after watching Dirthead Dave (Dirthead Shed youtube channel) run his "Maz Grande" rig on bags on that Unreal Adventure trip. Driving down fairly low, then bumping it up and hitting serious obstacles, then dropping it back down to drive home.

The ability to chose a ride height based on situation seems pretty friggin' cool, but it does create some unique challenges. For what it's worth, I think your time might be best spent creating tire clearance and allowing for travel. Think of it this way, if you can choose ride height on the fly, you would probably want your most neutral, stock-like handling to be at the setting you'd probably run on the road, i.e. fairly low. Even in serious wheeling situations, lower is pretty nice until you NEED the clearance. I'd look at fairly low but extremely capable rigs like Broski's... Subtle tub work for tire clearance, extended brake lines and breathers for flex, and then, after getting that sorted along with appropriate bumps stops, maybe something like Delta arms or even Eimkeith drop brackets for caster if you feel like you need it... or go all out with a three link and high steer at that point, but it wouldn't be anywhere near phase one of that build in my mind. There's much lower hanging fruit.

Anyway, just some thoughts because I've been kicking the idea around.
 
Also, I should mention, I AM lifted around 2.5" and my 35s still rub under the right circumstances (stock bumps stops still). That's why I'm saying, to use air suspension to the fullest, you're probably going to need to make some tire room.
 
efjayatee said:
You don't even need panhard correction on a 2" lift nor caster correction.
Click to expand...

Eh, I completely disagree with this. Drive one back to back after adding them and you will see major difference. We put them on so many customer 80's who have had 2" lift for decade plus and they always report back that it's like a new truck.
 
2" on dobs 1.75 and spacers for the 1st 5yrs of owning the 93 on 315s. No issues with driving. Caster was 1.5 and 1.75.
Only installed Deltas and panhard bracket when going to 37s with 4" terrain tamer smart coils and IMS.
Under 3" especially 2.5" could get away with out caster corrections....
For me the sweet spot is 2.5" on true 35s in 17s.
I guess the key take away is to measure your casters angles to determine if need mods.😎
 
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To comment on a lot of posts let me first start by saying that air suspension tech has sort of come a long way in the last 20 years.
I used to design, build and install air suspensions for the import and "sport" truck crowd back in the late 90s into the early 2000's
The principle idea has remained but the controls and air bag tech has evolved a bit.
For example you can do dual stage air bags now.
You can set up two bags per corner that can be height and/or pressure based and control just about anything you can imagine or overide the system completely to make it do all sorts of fun stuff.

Moving on to caster or panhard correction, I will say that I am 100% on board for caster correction.
Even if you went extreme on caster correction, which you would never do realistically, there are very few negative affects.
The only real thing that might happen would be that the steering gets harder in slow speed or off road manuevers.

The rear panhard bar fix also get two thumbs up from me.
It easy (ish) and if you were to load all the data into a suspension calculator you will see improvements everywhere you are supposed to.

Anyway I am going to clearance for tires at lower ride height, gonna rock some proper caster for stability at speed and I'm going to sort how much the front axle shifts with the lift and maybe leave panhard stuff alone up there for now
 
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