EMS Exhaust replacement question?

[jcarter]

Wanted to bump an EMS "got screwed, what to do?" thread.

After looking through the MUD I brought it into a local exhaust shop. They are recommending getting new factory like downpipes with cat and O2 bung in each. They cost $450 each installed ($900 total). Then fabricating a new y pipe ($200) so about $1100. The problem I see is there won't be any flex in the system. I asked why they just couldn't replace the leaking flex pieces and they said the flex, O2 bung, etc is too tight to weld around the pipe. See pic.

I'm thinking about bringing it home, taking off the EMS piece and bringing it to another place to get a replacement. Hopefully that'll be cheaper and will have the flex. Attached shows the factory (2) down pipes (with cat & O2 bung) + y pipe next to 1 piece EMS with flex and O2 bungs and y pipe in one.

So any opinions? Go back to factory design with 2 cats ($1100) or try to keep EMS cat and get new EMS type piece made?

 

[scottryana]

If the exhaust shop is trying to charge you $1100 for just the y-pipe and is going to hard mount it to the manifold on an exhaust hard mounted to the frame?? You're getting screwed even more than EMS screwed you. That would only last so long before you cracked a manifold, pipe or hanger. Any decent shop can fix your y-pipe with new stainless flex sections. vibrant makes decent flex sections. Hell they could just sawzall the bottom tube off with the O2 bung on it, cut out the flex section in both pieces weld the top flex in, weld the new flex in the bottom and then weld that whole piece back where they cut it off.

 

[jcarter]

Huh?

Look at the picture. The "old" stuff shows the (2) downpipes, each has a cat on the end with O2 bung just above the cat. Each of those pieces costs $450 installed which adds up to $900.

Then look at the "new" stuff in the pic, see the cat? They want to cut it behind the cat then charge another $200 to make a Y-pipe to that cut.

Realize the "new" stuff in the picture is the EMS stuff. It's 2 years old and the flex pipes are leaking. Which is upstream from the O2 sensors so they're not "sensing" right.

Regardless, I think you're right! Shop told me "welding tip won't fit between the pipes to get a weld all the way around", in hindsight I should have asked "it was welded all the way around before, why can't you?".

I'll pick it up tomorrow and keep looking.

Question: Look at the new stuff in the pic. The "clamp" attaching the y-pipe to the cat sucks! Could they make this a "bolted flange" to replace the clamp?

 

[Golgo13]

I also have an EMS system. When my flex pieces break, I'm going to have them replaced with solid. Then at the joint in front of the cat I'll have them weld in a "ball joint" like toyota uses now. I think that should fix it.
I'm going back to rubber hangers.

EDIT: Changed the above after some more sober thoughts.

 

[Golgo13]

We got hosed.

 

[NLXTACY]

^ I wanted to like what you said @Golgo13 but I didn't want to send the wrong message that I liked you got hosed. So

 

[scottryana]

I know which is the Toyota part and which is the ems part

You don't need new cats you only need new flex joints and they could be replaced.

 

[iptman]

OEM doesn't have flex sections so why would after market need them? Also, didn't 93/94 have 2 O2 sensors pre cat? It looks like the EMS only has 1 bung so what did you do with the second sensor?

 

[scottryana]

The EMS needs flex sections because it is hard mounted to the frame. The OEM is not.

 

[iptman]

The EMS needs flex sections because it is hard mounted to the frame. The OEM is not.

Copy, thanks. I always wondered why all the fuss over the flex sections.

 

[jcarter]

Golgo13 - What is the toyota "ball joint" you speak of? Do you think it will fit? Theres a lot of stuff going on right in a short distance.

iptman - There are 2 bungs very close to the Y. Look at first pic and you can see the back of the other.

Thanks for the replies. Maybe what I go through will help others in the "EMS Hosed Group".

Trying to get down to the options:
1. Go back to factory (solid down from manifold) with after market down pipes with cats and bungs, cut out the EMS cat. Somehow you'll need to add a flex pipe between the aftermarked pieces and the solid EMS out to tailpipe. As I said these down pipes will run about $900 for 2 plus you'll need to pay for new Y-pipe and flex before the rest of the solid system.

2. Replace EMS (flex) in the down pipes. You propably also want to redo the crappy "clamp" just before the cat with a "bolted flange". The good thing about this option is only 1 cat in the system and should flow better. My 92 has the gloriously slow 3FE so won't feel any improvement with good flow, but can't hurt. I wonder if you can take off the first piece (manifold to cat), bring it in and ask a shop to redo it with new flex pipes, put it back on then bring it in to replace the clamp with a bolted flange. I think that'll be my next stategy.

More thoughts?

 

[BRKLYN1]

when my flex pipes broke... #igothosed ..... I turned the front Y section in to 3 separate pieces ... i cut them out before the Y ... made slip fits for both down pipes onto the Y .... this made it all much easier to install as in I didn't have to drop my rock sliders to install .... I hope a new SS aftermarket pipe gets to market soon!

 

[Golgo13]

#igothosed

I feel your pain and like the new hashtag!

The thinking behind a flex section is like this...

The engine has a bushing connection to the frame. During start-up and other high-torque times for the engine it will want to rotate on its center of gravity. The engine mounts are positioned to reduce this as much as possible and to damp out higher-frequency vibrations from the engine so they don't propagate through the frame, through the body mounts and into the cabin.
The exhaust pipe is rigidly connected to the exhaust manifold, which is rigidly connected to the engine. So any movement the engine makes, so do the front pipes. Luckily in an I-6 configuration, this is fairly minimal. The stock design doesn't really need a flex section because this movement is small and the rest of the exhaust is floating on very flexible rubber cushions.

However, since the EMS design was developed by someone with a diminished mental capacity, they decided to make all the down-stream connections rigid and add some flex sections up front. That should be OK, right? Not really. There should really only be 1 flex section.

Toyota almost always puts this after the Y-pipe which is after the cats for each bank(or group in our case) of cylinders. Toyota basically has a set of flanges with spherical inside faces and a donut shaped thermal gasket between. The flange is bolted together with bolts through springs to help keep the joint flexible and let the two flange faces move relative to each other, but always keeping the centers aligned. This allows the two pipes to swivel in any direction. Front-back movement is handled with the rubber exhaust hangers.

The position of the ball joint or the flex sections is dependent on which direction shows the most movement from the engine. I retract my previous post about adding the ball-joint at the cat and calling it good. I think the rubber hangers are a better design. Plus you'll get a little less exhaust noise inside.

 

[jcarter]

I just got off the phone with the shop. I must say they are patient! I'm being a PITA!

Can't redo EMS downpipe: They are adamant about NOT being able to redo the EMS 1 piece down pipe with built in y due to not enough room to weld in new flex pipes. I still find this hard to believe and asked if they thought another shop could (they're REALLY patient!) they said you can try. Yo Mr. slipfitter BRKLYN1, you got any pictures of the 3 piece solution? I want to bring in the first picture and ask how whoever made it got the weld in at the place that looks like a ladie's private part.

New downpipes: He still thinks this is the best or only way to do it. He needs to figure out a single flex pipe after the Y and before the 90 to go across. I pointed out the solid mount (see picture 2) just downstream from the cat. He said he could redo the mount and put in proper flex.

We or I am still undecided. I told him I'd either pick it up or give the go-ahead on a couple of days.

New factory downpipe pros/cons: Pro - If I let them do what they want (they're the experts) then I can bring it back if I have an issue. I figure if I spend $1100 (con) with them, it gives me a lot of leverage for a free fix should it mess up! Con - maybe they're crooks too (like EMS), could give a crap, and will charge me to patch/fix their system in the future.

New EMS downpipe pros/cons: Pro - I may be able to bring it somewhere else who will take off the EMS down pipe, think through replacing the flex pipes (like BRKLYN1 did) replace them with quality parts that last. And do all this for less than the $1100. Con - may not be able to find a shop that'll do it and/or what they fabricate may be a POS like the EMS part is.

I have a couple of days if y'all don't mind weighing in. I don't want to spend $1100 but I don't want to be in this position in a couple of year either.

decisions decisions

 

[jcarter]

Option 3 flex mounts: What if I eliminate the flex sections altogether, redo the EMS section from cat to manifold (without flex pipes), then redo ALL EMS mounts to be flexible? How much flex really needs to be in the system? Factory design was for very minimal. It seems ANY flex pipe section is weaker than a straight pipe. This new custom piece from cat to manifold MUST be less than $900!

flex mounts: All of the EMS mounts seem to have a long enough piece of barstock where you could cut out 1/2" or so and bolt in strong rubber to add a little flex. It would be time consuming, but I could do it and my time is cheap.

 

[scottryana]

Yep making it soft mount is an option and has been done both ways work

 

[jcarter]

I just realized I'll be in Austin, TX on business Monday (see a lot of Mudders from Austin), so won't be able to pick it up.

I'm going to ask them to quote Option 3 - build new Y-pipe at cat (redo end of cat to replace "clamp" with "bolted flange"); build (2) new solid down pipes with O2 bungs (reusing existing as much as possible); and change mounts as needed to add flex back into the system.

I think this is the best option for the future. If ANY piece rusts out or is damaged, I should be able to unbolt and bring in to get a replacement piece made. AND I just can't see this work costing $1100! If the cost is more than $600 I'll bring it somewhere else.

I'll post pictures when complete. Thanks for the input folks (LOVE THE MUD!)

 

[jcarter]

Forgot to mention if I ever want to remove the cat, it should be easier this way!

 

[BRKLYN1]

I just got off the phone with the shop. I must say they are patient! I'm being a PITA!

Can't redo EMS downpipe: They are adamant about NOT being able to redo the EMS 1 piece down pipe with built in y due to not enough room to weld in new flex pipes. I still find this hard to believe and asked if they thought another shop could (they're REALLY patient!) they said you can try. Yo Mr. slipfitter BRKLYN1, you got any pictures of the 3 piece solution? I want to bring in the first picture and ask how whoever made it got the weld in at the place that looks like a ladie's private part.

New downpipes: He still thinks this is the best or only way to do it. He needs to figure out a single flex pipe after the Y and before the 90 to go across. I pointed out the solid mount (see picture 2) just downstream from the cat. He said he could redo the mount and put in proper flex.

We or I am still undecided. I told him I'd either pick it up or give the go-ahead on a couple of days.

New factory downpipe pros/cons: Pro - If I let them do what they want (they're the experts) then I can bring it back if I have an issue. I figure if I spend $1100 (con) with them, it gives me a lot of leverage for a free fix should it mess up! Con - maybe they're crooks too (like EMS), could give a crap, and will charge me to patch/fix their system in the future.

New EMS downpipe pros/cons: Pro - I may be able to bring it somewhere else who will take off the EMS down pipe, think through replacing the flex pipes (like BRKLYN1 did) replace them with quality parts that last. And do all this for less than the $1100. Con - may not be able to find a shop that'll do it and/or what they fabricate may be a POS like the EMS part is.

I have a couple of days if y'all don't mind weighing in. I don't want to spend $1100 but I don't want to be in this position in a couple of year either.

decisions decisions

I'll take some pictures later.... I also added a rubber hook mount to the down pipe since the first failure....

 

[NLXTACY]

Option #4 buy the FlowMaster downpipes. The CA version of the Y-pipe and cats is $540. The non-CA version is even cheaper.