E-KDSS

[M1911]

This is what is confusing to me. Why wouldn't they include it on the Luxury+ model then?

Luxury+ with 20”+ wheels are less likely to go off-road. The whole point of eKDSS is that it effectively disconnects the sway bars when off-road. This allows for having stiff sway bars for reduced sway while on road cornering while still allowing flex when off-road. But if the vehicle is less likely to go off-road, why bother with the cost and complexity of eKDSS? Instead, just install stiff sway bars and be done with it.

 

[on the rocks]

Luxury+ with 20”+ wheels are less likely to go off-road. The whole point of eKDSS is that it effectively disconnects the sway bars when off-road. This allows for having stiff sway bars for reduced sway while on road cornering while still allowing flex when off-road. But if the vehicle is less likely to go off-road, why bother with the cost and complexity of eKDSS? Instead, just install stiff sway bars and be done with it.

I suppose that makes sense but in realty, how many of either of the GX or LC (any package) would ever go off-road any further than a county road or mild forest road? Is the E-KDSS even necessary at all? Wouldn't anyone that wants to heavily modify their GX at any point really want to non E-KDSS for this same reason? Less cost and complexity? Especially with the front disconnect being pitched on the LC, and the though you could install this on the Lux+ GX if you chose. It's only a matter of time until someone here does this.
That is kind of my initial point. I would think if you ever have the thought of transforming your GX into a real offroad LC, you would actually likely say no thanks to the Overtrail and go the Luxury? Bypass all the factory "off-road" OEM upgrades and go all in with what what the aftermarket brings in. Bonus is, you still get that loaded LC feel most of us are used to.
I haven't ever had to read into the KDSS system much but suppose I need to really start studying this option, I have a few years to get it right.

 

[M1911]

I suppose that makes sense but in realty, how many of either of the GX or LC (any package) would ever go off-road any further than a county road or mild forest road?

I took my 200 to a couple LCDC events, one in Breckenridge and one in Telluride where we went offroad in the Colorado mountains. My 200 was 3-5 years old at that point, but at least one 200 was brand new.

Is the E-KDSS even necessary at all? Wouldn't anyone that wants to heavily modify their GX at any point really want to non E-KDSS for this same reason?

No. We do actually drive our vehicles on road too so having sway bars while on the road is very helpful to keeping sway in check while turning. Having disconnecting sway bars when off-road significantly increases articulation. I'm not aware of an aftermarket solution for automatically disconnecting sway bars.

Less cost and complexity? Especially with the front disconnect being pitched on the LC, and the though you could install this on the Lux+ GX if you chose. It's only a matter of time until someone here does this.
That is kind of my initial point. I would think if you ever have the thought of transforming your GX into a real offroad LC, you would actually likely say no thanks to the Overtrail and go the Luxury? Bypass all the factory "off-road" OEM upgrades and go all in with what what the aftermarket brings in. Bonus is, you still get that loaded LC feel most of us are used to.
I haven't ever had to read into the KDSS system much but suppose I need to really start studying this option, I have a few years to get it right.

Do what you want. Don't assume that others want the same thing.

 

[Banandalorian]

I suppose that makes sense but in realty, how many of either of the GX or LC (any package) would ever go off-road any further than a county road or mild forest road? Is the E-KDSS even necessary at all? Wouldn't anyone that wants to heavily modify their GX at any point really want to non E-KDSS for this same reason? Less cost and complexity? Especially with the front disconnect being pitched on the LC, and the though you could install this on the Lux+ GX if you chose. It's only a matter of time until someone here does this.
That is kind of my initial point. I would think if you ever have the thought of transforming your GX into a real offroad LC, you would actually likely say no thanks to the Overtrail and go the Luxury? Bypass all the factory "off-road" OEM upgrades and go all in with what what the aftermarket brings in. Bonus is, you still get that loaded LC feel most of us are used to.
I haven't ever had to read into the KDSS system much but suppose I need to really start studying this option, I have a few years to get it right.

Every 460 has KDSS because KDSS was necessary for Lexus to meet their requirements for ride comfort and handling/body roll (i.e. softer shocks/springs cancelled out by giant sway bars). The added bonus is that KDSS is effectively an automatic swaybar disconnect which allows for a lot more articulation within the stock geometry off road. With the 550, Lexus can meet its targets for on/off road performance with regular sway bars and the non-overtrail trims will have more off road chops than they need. The overtrail gets E-KDSS because that allows the overtail to maximize articulation/travel off road, and still give a Lexus-quality drive on the road even with taller tires and a taller ride height. E-KDSS also does all of that automatically vs the disconnect available in the Land Cruiser or new Tacoma.
If you are thinking about the used market I think it is actually great that there are more options. If you find a used overtrail, you know it can immediately tackle pretty serious off roading right out of the box. But if you know you want to do the full build yourself adding a lift, lockers, long travel, etc then you can find a different trim do all of that without the added complications of E-KDSS.

 

[tacoshawn]

+1. I meet my brother in Moab to off-road. I think the E-KDSS is going to be great for the 800 mile trip to get there and then just as fantastic on the trail once there. I’ll not miss crawling under the Tacoma to unbolt the front sway bar links and then hope the zip ties keep them out of the way.

My son, who now has my Tacoma, fixed this by just binning the sway bar completely.

I love this combination of what looks to be fantastic on road driving with great off road capability out of the box.

I’ll definitely be watching the aftermarket for bumpers, though. I’ll just be careful on approach and departure until I can figure that out.

 

[tacoshawn]

Obligatory pictures of trucks and affirmation that wheel travel matters. The LX is my brothers, the Tacoma mine.

My brother now has a 200, looking forward to seeing him again in Moab with my GX/LC250 and seeing how it does. As you can see in the bottom picture we both used up all of the approach angle. Even with my aftermarket rear bumper and much improved rear clearance I constantly dragged the rear of the Tacoma on shelfs and obstacles.

 

[Jstawgn]

KDSS is not for everyone. The reason KDSS was never offered on TRD Pro are becaue it would be totally wrong application for high speed off road.

This guy is one of them. KDSS is totally wrong for him. He have another videos showing KDSS solenoid are open most of the time and only when steering input and yaw sensor are above threshold it would close.


On the other hand I love KDSS. The head toss was never a concern nor a problem for me. In fact it was a trait I was looking for. I want an off road capable that handle somewhat sporty on road. The one in GX470 are the most hardcore KDSS.

Toyota already softened KDSS a lot on GX460.
GX470 Front bar diameter are 50 mm and 33 mm rear.
GX460 front bar diameter are 41 mm and 30 mm rear.

 

[on the rocks]

I took my 200 to a couple LCDC events, one in Breckenridge and one in Telluride where we went offroad in the Colorado mountains. My 200 was 3-5 years old at that point, but at least one 200 was brand new.

That's exactly my point. You drive your LC across the country in comfort to drive on moderate FR's and county roads. Neither Breckenridge or Telluride have technical off-road worthy trails. There are a few around each but that's not my point and I'm pretty sure you didn't run any. The E-KDSS and KDSS for that matter will get you to a trail in comfort but only get you so far if you want to take it to that next level it seems. I think there are more people out there wanting to modify their GX than you may think. Even if it is to just look cool on the asphalt and get attention.

Every 460 has KDSS because KDSS was necessary for Lexus to meet their requirements for ride comfort and handling/body roll (i.e. softer shocks/springs cancelled out by giant sway bars). The added bonus is that KDSS is effectively an automatic swaybar disconnect which allows for a lot more articulation within the stock geometry off road. With the 550, Lexus can meet its targets for on/off road performance with regular sway bars and the non-overtrail trims will have more off road chops than they need. The overtrail gets E-KDSS because that allows the overtail to maximize articulation/travel off road, and still give a Lexus-quality drive on the road even with taller tires and a taller ride height. E-KDSS also does all of that automatically vs the disconnect available in the Land Cruiser or new Tacoma.
If you are thinking about the used market I think it is actually great that there are more options. If you find a used overtrail, you know it can immediately tackle pretty serious off roading right out of the box. But if you know you want to do the full build yourself adding a lift, lockers, long travel, etc then you can find a different trim do all of that without the added complications of E-KDSS

So why did Toyota go this route with the 250? Was it to save costs or make the SUV more easily modified at some point? Or both? It still makes me think I would prefer the L+ with the simple design, the wife gets her bling 22's and it is a mall crawler for the first 5-10 years of it's life. And the thought even though the sway bar is in the front of the GX L+ it is the same frame and suspension so you could eventually source a 250 DC front sway bar with the disconnect relocated to the rear of the axle, add a rear locker, OEM or aftermarket and take the GX to that next level much easier.

KDSS is not for everyone. The reason KDSS was never offered on TRD Pro are becaue it would be totally wrong application for high speed off road.

This guy is one of them. KDSS is totally wrong for him. He have another videos showing KDSS solenoid are open most of the time and only when steering input and yaw sensor are above threshold it would close.

Good info, if they didn't change the design, I would avoid the system without a doubt, but how much improved is the new E-KDSS over the old system to a point where it just caters to the family to does a mellow trail every few years to go fish or drive across the country to hit the alpine loop thinking it's an extreme trail system. Either way, it seems to me the overland setup would NOT be the way to go. And one would be better off sticking to the 250. Even though the E-KDSS system gives an advantage to a point, it seems the complexity, maintenance and overall cost is best to stay away from. Everything they added to the overtrail+ seems to be a mild upgrade for the guy that wants the slightly better off-road worthy SUV at a huge cost and happy with the one and done turn key solution. That or one that owns a cabin down a terribly maintained 10 mile county road of FR they live out of and have to drive often.

 

[TWILLY]

That's exactly my point. You drive your LC across the country in comfort to drive on moderate FR's and county roads. Neither Breckenridge or Telluride have technical off-road worthy trails. There are a few around each but that's not my point and I'm pretty sure you didn't run any. The E-KDSS and KDSS for that matter will get you to a trail in comfort but only get you so far if you want to take it to that next level it seems. I think there are more people out there wanting to modify their GX than you may think. Even if it is to just look cool on the asphalt and get attention.



So why did Toyota go this route with the 250? Was it to save costs or make the SUV more easily modified at some point? Or both? It still makes me think I would prefer the L+ with the simple design, the wife gets her bling 22's and it is a mall crawler for the first 5-10 years of it's life. And the thought even though the sway bar is in the front of the GX L+ it is the same frame and suspension so you could eventually source a 250 DC front sway bar with the disconnect relocated to the rear of the axle, add a rear locker, OEM or aftermarket and take the GX to that next level much easier.

View attachment 3565799


Good info, if they didn't change the design, I would avoid the system without a doubt, but how much improved is the new E-KDSS over the old system to a point where it just caters to the family to does a mellow trail every few years to go fish or drive across the country to hit the alpine loop thinking it's an extreme trail system. Either way, it seems to me the overland setup would NOT be the way to go. And one would be better off sticking to the 250. Even though the E-KDSS system gives an advantage to a point, it seems the complexity, maintenance and overall cost is best to stay away from. Everything they added to the overtrail+ seems to be a mild upgrade for the guy that wants the slightly better off-road worthy SUV at a huge cost and happy with the one and done turn key solution. That or one that owns a cabin down a terribly maintained 10 mile county road of FR they live out of and have to drive often.

I agree. Needless complexity.

 

[M1911]

That's exactly my point. You drive your LC across the country in comfort to drive on moderate FR's and county roads. Neither Breckenridge or Telluride have technical off-road worthy trails.

 

[M1911]

Even though the E-KDSS system gives an advantage to a point, it seems the complexity, maintenance and overall cost is best to stay away from.

Maintenance? And just what maintenance has been needed for KDSS in the past? I'm over 100k on my 200 and you know what maintenance I've done to the KDSS? Bupkis.

Yes, this is eKDSS so it is a different system, but do you really think Toyota is going to suddenly start building unreliable Land Cruisers?

Look, if you prefer a 60 Series, that's great. Enjoy it. But you don't have to make stuff up just to crap on a vehicle that you're never going to buy.

 

[on the rocks]

What's the humor in this? Should we share the trails you ran and determine how technical they were?
I think you just pointing our certain things I'm addressing or questing and firing back. Have you ever modified your 200? Maybe you should move along...
I'm simply asking anyone who has had to deal with modifying their LC and what issues they hade with their KDSS. Pretty simple question.
I wouldn't be on here asking the questions if I wasn't seriously considering buying a GX. You an expert on that too?

 

[Oakleyguy]

What's the humor in this? Should we share the trails you ran and determine how technical they were?
I think you just pointing our certain things I'm addressing or questing and firing back. Have you ever modified your 200? Maybe you should move along...
I'm simply asking anyone who has had to deal with modifying their LC and what issues they hade with their KDSS. Pretty simple question.
I wouldn't be on here asking the questions if I wasn't seriously considering buying a GX. You an expert on that too?

Ome lift here with no issues.

 

[Jetboy]

I took my KDSS 4Runner through the Rubicon a few times. I'd guess it's well under 1% of owners who will ever take them down a trail more challenging than the Rubicon. At very low speeds it's excellent. If you have stock control arms, it's hard to get more travel than KDSS will allow at low speeds when the shutter valves are open. It's the medium speed stuff where it comes up very harsh.

IMO kdss is better than any other system I know of except one custom setup I've seen. It's a mechanical forced articulation system using torsion springs, a dana 60 center section (spider gears of the open diff mounted adjacent to transfer case) and run to each axle. Very cool, fully mechanical, forced articulation, zero travel restrictions, and excellent handling. But not realistic for an OEM.

The new system loses a big part of what KDSS did well - the forced articulation. What is missing from a simple disconnect and apparently from the new KDSS is the load distribution function. Solid axles excel at weight distribution between the two tires due to the nature of inboard springs and the non-independent function of the axle beam. Using KDSS type systems allow the IFS to work at least partially in the same way. Where it fell short in the J150 and J200 was the fluid flow rates and available use speed and the travel range. Both the J150 and J200 versions of KDSS were limited in speed (most likely due to fluid flow restriction and temperature issues). It's a lot of feet of narrow lines and my guess is that the shutter valves are set based on ensuring fluid temps don't get hot.

The travel was the other issue. The travel in the stock version is greater than the stock suspension travel. No issues stock - it easily out performs any other stock suspension setup including TRD Pro. When we start extending travel - it's still not an issue. But when we start lifting AND extending travel - then it's a problem. How much problem? Kinda depends on how you look at it. You can add a lot of rear travel to the J150 - but it's mostly low value extended travel. The spring location is too short to use long low-spring rate coils that would be needed to maintain significant load carrying force. The tire drooping down doesn't do anything useful unless it's actually PUSHING down with a spring force. And that's the tricky part with the rear design - to make it functional it requires long coils that would then need a pretty significant re-work of the rear suspension. Can be done for sure - but not easily. So there's a point of diminishing returns without a major re-work.

For high speed stuff - the droop allows a lot more shock damping distance and has pretty significant benefits. However, KDSS with a few adjustments can pretty well max out down travel for that purpose. It's not ideal, but not all that restrictive.

I think what's interesting is to watch a KDSS 4Runner and a non-KDSS one on the same obstacle somewhere like Moab. The KDSS is a significant improvement in the very low speed stuff. Even with two similarly setup vehicles with the typical 2-3" lift and extended travel coils and rear shocks. Under 5mph - KDSS is better. Above that - not so much. And it's not great until you get back up to the 50mph range and then it's pretty good again. 70mph on desert tracks - KDSS does great at managing body roll and the suspension feedback is almost all shock damping driven at that point. In between though - not so great.

What Toyota could have done - and it's kind remarkable no one has done it aftermarket - use KDSS with softer sway bars. If someone just made replacement sway bars for KDSS with the small SR5 diameter, you'd get the same handling of the base models on the road and the improvements off-road at low speed. That's what Toyota should have done with the TRD Pro IMO. (Remember the original TRD Pros had KDSS before they dropped it for production).

Without KDSS - the 4runner highway handling is pretty terrible. I would not own a 5th gen without it as a daily driver. It'll be interesting to see how the non-kdss GXs handle and what they're doing to keep the body roll in check. The LC250 use of the SDM should be pretty good all around.

 

[on the rocks]

Good info @Jetboy, I will continue to soak in the E-KDSS system and with a few years here for either a new or used GX, I'm thinking the Lux+ will still be the one. Not a hard swing either direction but with the possibility of incorporating the SDM later down the line, I'm not so disappointed as much they didn't offer the E-KDSS for this model. I would gladly swap the E-KDSS for the 3rd row and sky roof but that obviously isn't happening.

 

[Jetboy]

Good info @Jetboy, I will continue to soak in the E-KDSS system and with a few years here for either a new or used GX, I'm thinking the Lux+ will still be the one. Not a hard swing either direction but with the possibility of incorporating the SDM later down the line, I'm not so disappointed as much they didn't offer the E-KDSS for this model. I would gladly swap the E-KDSS for the 3rd row and sky roof but that obviously isn't happening.

FWIW - I think the SDM swap is not an easy bolt in. The SDM sway bar lives behind the front control arms and mounts to locations on the LCA that are on the eKDSS or other GX model lower control arms. This is pure speculation - but I *think* that the 8AT has different clearance around the location where the SDM sway bar will pass through, so it may not physically fit with the powertrain in the GX either - unless there is a hybrid GX that shares the same powertrain as the LC250.

Just looking closely at the two systems - there are enough differences that may make the SDM a challenge to fit into the GX.

However - it may be just as easy to modify the SDM mechanism to mount to the GX sway bar up front. I tend to think that's the easy route. Or you could go with any of the aftermarket sway bar disconnects. Lots of options for mechanical sway disconnects.


Personally - I don't like the decision to separate the front and rear systems, but retain a central valve manifold and accumulator assembly. Why not just have each system be separate and save all of the unnecessary plumbing and parts? And why keep the hydraulic pistons that are designed as push/pull units? If they only need to run a single location that is electronically controlled - they can just be 3 independent closed loop piston assemblies with variable valving. That would be a LOT simpler and should be more reliable and more repair friendly. Just all around a better design IMO.

Basically it should just be a set of these with electronic valving:

A single bypass shock with a shutter valve in the position of the bypass adjuster would do the same thing too.

 

[Banandalorian]

Good info @Jetboy, I will continue to soak in the E-KDSS system and with a few years here for either a new or used GX, I'm thinking the Lux+ will still be the one. Not a hard swing either direction but with the possibility of incorporating the SDM later down the line, I'm not so disappointed as much they didn't offer the E-KDSS for this model. I would gladly swap the E-KDSS for the 3rd row and sky roof but that obviously isn't happening.

The way I see the 550 is that the Overtrail is "built" the way most GXOR-ers are building their 470 and 460s out of the box: A bit of a lift, a bit of bumper shaping, 33s and then the added bonus of rear locker, MTS/Crawl, and E-KDSS. You get a ton of flex, all the off road goodies, but it can still work perfectly well as a daily.
The Land Cruiser is in the same category with slight differences.

If you know you are going to do a more extreme build with long travel, aftermarket diffs, etc then you can probably save some money finding any other 550 and avoid the overland-cool tax on the overtrail or LC. Then you won't have to deal with modifying/removing the various swaybar disconnects or replacing lockers with slightly better lockers.

 

[on the rocks]

FWIW - I think the SDM swap is not an easy bolt in. The SDM sway bar lives behind the front control arms and mounts to locations on the LCA that are on the eKDSS or other GX model lower control arms. This is pure speculation - but I *think* that the 8AT has different clearance around the location where the SDM sway bar will pass through, so it may not physically fit with the powertrain in the GX either - unless there is a hybrid GX that shares the same powertrain as the LC250.

That's a good point, I forgot they pitched the 8AT in the LC....

 

[Jetboy]

That's a good point, I forgot they pitched the 8AT in the LC....

They said that the 8AT was used in the Tacoma because it had higher belly clearance. I can't figure out why that would be - they look nearly identical in size. It wouldn't surprise me if they were actually the same transmission like Toyota did with the A760/A750. But that's the claim. I don't think we'll know much until they actually get out into circulation and see what's real and what's not.

 

[on the rocks]

The way I see the 550 is that the Overtrail is "built" the way most GXOR-ers are building their 470 and 460s out of the box: A bit of a lift, a bit of bumper shaping, 33s and then the added bonus of rear locker, MTS/Crawl, and E-KDSS. You get a ton of flex, all the off road goodies, but it can still work perfectly well as a daily.
The Land Cruiser is in the same category with slight differences.

If you know you are going to do a more extreme build with long travel, aftermarket diffs, etc then you can probably save some money finding any other 550 and avoid the overland-cool tax on the overtrail or LC. Then you won't have to deal with modifying/removing the various swaybar disconnects or replacing lockers with slightly better lockers.

I agree and I think I was getting caught up on the KDSS system more than anything just not being familiar with it. It's a bit of an odd position to be in to have an option to spec the GX/LC out now, just to bad you can't pre-order exactly what you want and be done with it. I suppose my time frame works for me and I have time to be patient and wait it out.
I thought I was getting it figured out but now last couple days not so much, seeing the E-KDSS is likely improved. I don't see going long arm and all extreme offroad gear for quite some time, if at all, Just a mild lift and 35's and mostly stock. Poking around the Lexus build link I see you can delete the the moonroof on the OT+ and it has no 3rd row. Both much more important to me than integrating the OEM suspension components from the looks of it , and dealing with a 3rd row and panoramic glass fixed roof. In addition to this it also offers the crawl control(I also haven't experienced) but would think its a bonus as well. Even with the added ML audio and a few options available, it leaves room before you start hitting the L+ numbers to add on an aftermarket decent wheel/ tire package.
Just looking to get a little further than off the beaten path more than the norm. I have other toys to go play in.