Driving characteristic after suspension refresh. Thanks for your wisdom and help!

[RightFootBlues]

Couple of months ago, i bought a low mileage (sub 100k) 2000 LC from a seller on this forum. The truck is in spectacular shape, but being 26 years old -and with many adventures in mind - i decided to invest and do a refresh.

Being based out of Austin, TX - the go to shop was always going to be LandCruiser Specialists - the chaps there are absolute rockstars. We agree on everything -except one thing: driving characteristic / feel AFTER the refresh. Now, i've owned a LC before - in the early 2000s, and more recently a few 4Runners - so am familiar with the characteristics of a body on frame setup, however i concede that i am no mechanical guru... so my point of "disagreement" with the chaps - comes less from absolute know how, but rather from instinct/feel and sense (i know how this sounds, but please allow me to explain ...)

For full disclosure, we refreshed the following parts (in multiple phases): Steering rack, CV shafts +seals, valve cover gasket + spark plugs, outer tie rods, sway bar bushing f/r, rear U-joints, Drive belt, Radiator, exhaust manifold + gasket, new exhaust. We also installed a brand new IronMan Stage 3 lift kit (medium weight)

I would think this is quite comprehensive. I drove the truck for a week or so whilst the new kit settled and had then done a full alignment.

Now - here is MY issue. Whilst i can feel the improvement of the overall quality of the ride ( elimination of body roll, or previous soft squeaks etc) - it irks me that a) the truck is skittish on the road...any road imperfection i drive over, makes the ruck rattle, skip and generally pull to a side. b) if high winds exist, the truck is all over the place. c) steering wheel moves very loosely...rather than being very stable and still. d) going over same road imperfection - there is higher than expected steering wheel feedback, with the body and steering wheel jittering to left or right...it just feels like there is non existent dampening or energy absorption that is passed on to me the driver.

In other words - the truck feels clunky and wobbly and not, stable and planted on the road.

I have read many threads here - so i get that i will need to continue going down the rabbit hole and refresh other components - perhaps body mounts, front diff bushing etc

What i am looking for - from any wisdom here, is a confirmation that the driving characteristics i described are not normal, that i am not insane....cos im pulling my hair out trying to convince the chaps that the driving characteristic shouldEnjoy be different to what it is now.

Thank you all - Marek

 

[Mike NXP]

>>> We also installed a brand new IronMan Stage 3 lift kit (medium weight)

>> the truck is skittish on the road...any road imperfection i drive over, makes the ruck rattle, skip and generally pull to a side. b) if high winds exist, the truck is all over the place. c) steering wheel moves very loosely...rather than being very stable and still. d) going over same road imperfection - there is higher than expected steering wheel feedback, with the body and steering wheel jittering to left or right...it just feels like there is non existent dampening or energy absorption that is passed on to me the driver.



>>> I have read many threads here - so i get that i will need to continue going down the rabbit hole and refresh other components - perhaps body mounts, front diff bushing etc

I google'd the Stage 3 kit from Iron man and I'm not surprised at all that it now feels like you are driving a dump truck......You lifted an IFS vehicle and added heavy weight shocks for ( I assume ?) is a stock weight vehicle but correct me if I'm wrong.....

In my humble and experienced opinion the more lift you add to these vehicles the worse they will ride...There is zero reason to lift these vehicles unless your goal is to stuff big tires in there ( dumb ) or you need heavy suspension to hold extra weight

So the stage 3 says it replaced all suspension along with your rear control arms, diff drop, and a bunch of other stuff to....Did they do all of that?


>> Don't dive down the rabbit hole , a lot of people on here are nuts ( myself included ) and throw parts at these trucks that don't need replacing. Take some time to figure out what you want to do with the vehicle and build accordingly.....You would be amazed what a stock 100 series on highway tires can do lol

----------------
> How did the truck drive before the lift?
> Have you considered going with OEM suspension all around, probably too late now?
> Are you stock weight or overweight?
> What is your intended use, are you trying to rock crawl and need to maximize body lift ?
>> Do you have stock tire size?
>> What is your ride height measured from center hub/fender lip , front and back

 

[89BIGBLUE]

Might be lifted too high in the front.
They need some rake to work right...AND added weight with that kind of lift.

 

[frawstme]

to stuff big tires in there ( dumb )

shots fired

 

[Brandon Ryder]

I did an iron man lift and it needed to settle in for a few hundred miles. Once I hit a trail and flexed the suspension it got way better.

It also sounds like you need an alignment. And most shops won't touch the camber or caster, which needs to be corrected as much as possible. If you kind of goldilocks the front lift by keeping it kinda low(maybe 1.75 inches?), you can keep factory control arms, get enough caster, and still clear 35s. That's what I did and my ride was impressive at first. Now it's been 60k more and I need to actually replace my front end bushings in the IFS just from age. But hoping to regain that ride i had shortly after I installed the lift. I do have steel bumpers though which helps they say with ride smoothness.

 

[Mike NXP]

shots fired

=] Spreading great shame one comment at a time

 

[jaewastooshort]

shots fired

matter of taste, I suppose. I can understand the perspective of it costing more money for much larger tires which require modifications for clearance, while providing "minimal" benefits (necessity can obviously vary greatly by use case), but I also kinda feel like "because I like it" is a good enough justification.

For full disclosure, we refreshed the following parts (in multiple phases): Steering rack, CV shafts +seals, valve cover gasket + spark plugs, outer tie rods, sway bar bushing f/r, rear U-joints, Drive belt, Radiator, exhaust manifold + gasket, new exhaust. We also installed a brand new IronMan Stage 3 lift kit (medium weight)

I would think this is quite comprehensive. I drove the truck for a week or so whilst the new kit settled and had then done a full alignment.

the twitchy behavior sounds like it could be a caster issue, based on what I've been reading around here... were your upper control arms replaced with a set that corrects caster? or as part of the alignment were the UCAs adjusted to max it out with factory adjustment? I'd be curious to see the final alignment numbers.

 

[RightFootBlues]

Thanks for the comments - to clarify, the setup is for Medium weight (i have installed full ARB drawers at the rear)...so not full heavy. I am also going camping this weekend - so interested to see once fully loaded.
The guys at LandCruiser Specialists did the setup correctly also IMO - there is a rake..the rear being slightly higher than front.
Yes, there is a diff drop also. Overall - the truck was not raised 3 inches as from stock. The suspension setup gave me maybe 1.5 inch lift from my previous setup...

I suspect that maybe a specialist 4x4 alignment is the key here....so will try this next.

 

[frawstme]

matter of taste, I suppose. I can understand the perspective of it costing more money for much larger tires which require modifications for clearance, while providing "minimal" benefits (necessity can obviously vary greatly by use case), but I also kinda feel like "because I like it" is a good enough justification.

Ill be shamed for it but I'm a "I like the way it looks" guy. Running 33s right now but fully intend to go 35s once these are cooked


As to not hijack the thread with off topic nonsense I'll contribute. I bought my LC with 33s and maxed torsion bars, 50mm lift on the rear. It was darty/twitchy and unstable. I installed SPC UCAs from exit off-road when they did their sale, and it was an immediate difference in the control of the car having that higher caster

 

[jaewastooshort]

Thanks for the comments - to clarify, the setup is for Medium weight (i have installed full ARB drawers at the rear)...so not full heavy. I am also going camping this weekend - so interested to see once fully loaded.
The guys at LandCruiser Specialists did the setup correctly also IMO - there is a rake..the rear being slightly higher than front.
Yes, there is a diff drop also. Overall - the truck was not raised 3 inches as from stock. The suspension setup gave me maybe 1.5 inch lift from my previous setup...

I suspect that maybe a specialist 4x4 alignment is the key here....so will try this next.

a tree kind of derailed my AHC lift so I haven't gotten it back on the road yet to test drive, but I did install dobinson's UCA's to correct caster. My goal is around the same 1.5" so I have been reading a lot about similar setups and what worked for other people... it does sound like caster being too low could be the source of your problems. I know when I got my first alignment done I had multiple UCA adjustment bolts that were frozen inside the bushing making any productive adjustment impossible (ended up having to fully cut one bolt to do my UCA swap).

 

[NE Snowman]

as someone who’s not a big “off-road” warrior, and more of a bad weather (snow + mtns) long trips hauler. Also lessons learned from my 4R

OEM until it needs bigger, stock ride till you need more. Leave the geometry alone unless you need the lift. Same with tires, thanks to our 200s area, found Defenders (not meaty looking) but I ran though snow better now then my previous lifted 4R with larger Wildpeaks. It’s also way better in normal driving conditions.

Cry once, buy OEM replacement. It’s one of the many reasons we buy these trucks, they’re over built, and none of us are hammering ours like they 2step them in UAE

 

[Exiled]

I've daily driven a lifted 100 since 2007, and one of the BEST improvements I've made to the ride quality of the truck was adding one of the Eimkeith panhard correction kits for the rear axle. It made such a huge difference that I recently bought one for my wife's lifted 200 series.

Also, I'm in Austin (well, Round Rock) if you want to come drive my Land Cruiser and see how it compares to yours, and whether that's the right modification to target. Happy to help in any way I can.

 

[asmara]

Two things - 1) I had a 4runner that drove exactly like that. The problem was 'over-inflated' tires. And it wasn't much. It was years ago but it was something like anything over 33 PSI and it had all the same symptoms. A nightmare to drive. 2) I just had a bunch of suspension work done at a non-LC specialist shop on my LC100. It tracked poorly with bad torque steer. I researched it here and determined that the shop put in and torqued the new bushings on the rack. The manual says to torque them when the suspension is loaded. I had them retorque with the wheels on the ground and it is stable now.

 

[Mike NXP]

Thanks for the comments - to clarify, the setup is for Medium weight (i have installed full ARB drawers at the rear)...so not full heavy. I am also going camping this weekend - so interested to see once fully loaded.
The guys at LandCruiser Specialists did the setup correctly also IMO - there is a rake..the rear being slightly higher than front.
Yes, there is a diff drop also. Overall - the truck was not raised 3 inches as from stock. The suspension setup gave me maybe 1.5 inch lift from my previous setup...

I suspect that maybe a specialist 4x4 alignment is the key here....so will try this next.

Removing third row seats rated to hold 2 peoples weight and replacing them a drawer system doesn't justify the need for an overweight / medium weight suspension setup. You probably didn't change overall vehicle weight much if any at all.

>> Did the vehicle ride better before the suspension change? If yes, the answer is clearly the suspension kit causing the complaints with your ride....


4x4 specialist shop is great and all but unless they took the time to understand your vehicle weight, future build hopes, and driving habits then just throwing an Ironman kit at it isn't a good solution ....

Curious on vehicle ride height from center hub to fender lip..This will help determine your chances at getting alignment dialed in but otherwise you will have to just adjust to the harsher ride I believe it comes with the territory of a suspension kit like that.....Add some weight with the hopes of it feeling better and be happy knowing you have a tough off road kit for your next adventure


Tires are worth discussing too but that's a whole nother' topic. Hopefully you can get it on a lift / alignment rack soon so someone can give it a shake down and make sure everything is good otherwise

 

[ChroniclerCruiser]

Bit of a thread hijack incoming here. My experience with Land Cruiser Specialists was less than stellar; when I first bought my truck I needed a timing belt, and they quoted me $900 for the install since I was supplying parts. I call the next day or two to schedule the repair, and the price suddenly jumped to $1500 and the dude on the phone wasn't exactly the most polite about dealing with the price discrepancy. At the time, that was slightly more expensive than what the local Toyota dealership quoted me, so I went with the dealer.

Knowing what I know now, I get the cost in labor, but that experience left a bad taste in my mouth. AJ's Yotas in Cedar Park is great, I can't recommend him enough. I talk about this because AJ will tell you  exactly what you need based on everything that you plan on doing with your cruiser, without upselling you on something you don't need. I'd reach out to him and explain your symptoms, he may be able to help you out, or at least point you in the right direction. Can't hurt to get a 2nd opinion!

 

[Exiled]

Bit of a thread hijack incoming here. My experience with Land Cruiser Specialists was less than stellar; when I first bought my truck I needed a timing belt, and they quoted me $900 for the install since I was supplying parts. I call the next day or two to schedule the repair, and the price suddenly jumped to $1500 and the dude on the phone wasn't exactly the most polite about dealing with the price discrepancy. At the time, that was slightly more expensive than what the local Toyota dealership quoted me, so I went with the dealer.

Knowing what I know now, I get the cost in labor, but that experience left a bad taste in my mouth. AJ's Yotas in Cedar Park is great, I can't recommend him enough. I talk about this because AJ will tell you  exactly what you need based on everything that you plan on doing with your cruiser, without upselling you on something you don't need. I'd reach out to him and explain your symptoms, he may be able to help you out, or at least point you in the right direction. Can't hurt to get a 2nd opinion!

I second that recommendation. Nothing against LCS but AJ Yota's is a trusted shop, they're the only folks in the Austin metro that I trust with my Land Cruisers. Knowledgeable, honest and very straightforward. Top notch crew, too!

 

[TahoeZ]

Some good input above. To paraphrase and add:
- Replace all worn/cracked bushings. Torque control arm bolts with vehicle on the ground.
- Add rear trackbar correction
- More positive caster (+3 minimum)
- Tire pressure correct (each single PSI makes a difference with D/E tires)
- Extended sway bar links (and new bushings)
- Ironman shocks are very firm, not incredibly responsive, and definitely do not provide a "plush" ride, IME. Consider OEM shocks if running close to stock weight, or pay up for something high-quality.

 

[RightFootBlues]

Thank you for the advice...I will speak to AJ.