Distributor in a 3FE - Hypothetic

[jcarter]

Getting out of my thought box

Commentary: Thanks for these responses guys, this really helps! A simple "you're doing it wrong" from my end doesn't cut it, because I've done it so many times, there has to be a reason. These last few posts explore the reason.

Beating: QUOTE"Don't forget he (gently?) beat on the distributor with a hammer to get it out of the block when he first removed it."QUOTE. Not correct, I easily pulled the distributor out of the block so I could get at the oil pump to BEAT it out. However, I did gently tapped on the distributor trying to get it back in (only once) because it wasn't lined up with the oil pump. This is why I recommend bumping the motor to mate the distributor & oil pump instead of pulling dist out, adjusting oil pump slot, putting dist back in and repeating over and over and over again. Gears are already mated so won't mess that up!

More great advice from Pinhead: QUOTE"the slot in the distributor hold down allows you to turn the distributor 30 degrees or more"QUOTE. That's a very good point! Realize the bolt diameter takes a lot off the adjustment of the slot. I think it's more like 20 to 25 degrees. This is the cause of my frustration.
First pic shows the position of the rotor after I installed the distributor at TDC, rotor pointing clockwise of the cover bolt hole where it should be counter-clockwise (or on the other side) of the cover bolt hole. After I finished and went to time it, even with the slot adjustment full counter clock-wise, I couldn't see the timing marks, so I took the bolt out to over-adjust it but it doesn't go too far because the cover bolt hole hits the head.

Second pic shows the position of the distributor after I installed it at TDC and timed it to 7 BTDC (before I ziptied it). It's pretty close, but if I'd twist it so I can get the bolt in, it'll be off timing a bit. Point is, I'M SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN!


E1-TE1 jumper: When timing I did properly jumper these. I checked to make sure the CEL was blinking like it should when these are jumped, same jumping procedure to run diagnostic.

Distributor gear: Checked that too for being loose. Pin is solid. Inspected this thoroughly with other people to verify.

Cam gear: TrickyT I think said "brass" or "fiber" which scares the crap out of me. I haven't researched in the FSM how this gear mates to the cam, but I hope it's not "soft" brass!

Commentary: Good thing is next guy having issues can read this and not as much as I am, which is the purpose of the MUD, right?

 

[Pin_Head]

If you run out of adustment range because the distributor body contacts the engine before you can get the timing set properly, they you need to move the rotor back a tooth so you have more room to rotate.

You can be sure that the mother's of the Toyota engineers that designed the distributor didn't raise any fools.

The slot for the adjuster bolt is wide enough to accomodate the turning range it needs to have for each tooth on the drive gear so that there will always be a correct position.

Your last picture shows that it needs to be reinstalled with the rotor CCW one more tooth.

Now go do it and prove that your momma didn't raise no fool.

 

[jcarter]

momma didn't raise no fool

What you're telling me is that if I drop the distributor in one tooth counter-clockwise, it'll be right. Look at that photo again. If I go one tooth counter-clockwise or 28 degrees counter-clockwise, the bolt won't go in (too much the other way).

Let's also figure the Toyota engineers were smart. They'd make it so when the distributor was in right, the bolt would be in the middle of the adjustment slot so you could tweak it advanced or retarded. Using this thought and your logic, one tooth counter clockwise will put the bolt in the middle of the adjustment. Doesn't look like that to me. Center bolt spot looks to be about 12 degrees over, not 28 degrees.

Guessing degrees:

• Back to the pic, if I'd rotate the distributor so I could put the bolt in, I'm guessing it would rotate 4 degrees putting me at 11 degrees BTDC instead of the FSM 7 BTDC.
• If I put it back in 1 tooth counter-clockwise (like in first pic showing rotor), I'm guessing it'd be about the same 11 degrees BTDC.

Future Reference:
Parts should be in today sometime. Before this is all over, I'm going to get a template showing actual degrees, tape it on the distributor by the rotor & another template by the adjustment slot, so we all know these actual degrees. I'll take pics and report back.

 

[Pin_Head]

Quit guessing and making excuses.

If one tooth CCW isn't enough, then try two, etc.

I'm telling you that there is a correct orientation of the distributor that will work and you haven't found it yet.

It doesn't matter where the hold down bolt is. It only matters if it is timed properly.

PS. The other thing you are forgetting is that you don't have it timed properly yet. By the time you move it over a tooth and get it timed properly the bolt probably will be in the center.

Now go fix it and quit blowing smoke up our asses.

 

[surfpig]

Wow...

When I first got my FJ55 it was running horribly. I went to check/adjust the timing and the advance diaphragm kept banging into the oil filter. So I put a big dent in the filter so I could get it timed right. I kept thinking, boy, those Toyota engineers are a bunch of dumbasses!



A year or so later I bought a new distributor and got the bright idea of moving the rotor over a couple of notches so then I had plenty of room for adjustment.

It ain't rocket surgery.

 

[Pin_Head]

I bought a new distributor and got the bright idea of moving the rotor over a couple of notches so then I had plenty of room for adjustment.

Just pull the spark plug wires out of the distributor cap two at a time and move them over one hole in the direction you need the distributor to go. Then you have plenty of room to set it (except on the 3F where you have a limited range of rotation).


It is much less work and there is no chance of having a problem with the oil pump drive on F/2F engines.

 

[surfpig]

Just pull the spark plug wires out of the distributor cap two at a time and move them over one hole in the direction you need the distributor to go. Then you have plenty of room to set it (except on the 3F where you have a limited range of rotation).

It is much less work and there is no chance of having a problem with the oil pump drive on F/2F engines.

I did that with the old dist... I just liked having the little numbers match up with their cylinders I guess.

 

[jcarter]

Frustrating, yet successful day!

You lousy, stinking, bastages, what was I missing. My reasoning was way flawed, but what was I missing?

7 degrees BTDC was what the FSM says is correct timing. I kept saying "28 degrees per tooth". This is CORRECT! But what was it correct for?

2X MULTIPIER! 7 degrees is on the flywheel run by the crank. Crank has 2 revolutions per 1 of the cam, cam runs the distributor. So, when I was thinking and arguing the point of 1 tooth is 28 degrees I was thinking cam gear when I should have been thinking crank (only 14 degrees on crank). So, that little, freaking, slot to adjust for timing is a BUNCH OF DEGREES DISTRIBUTOR WISE!

I need to get back to the wife, pics coming of degrees of distributor and why used distributor I bought wouldn't go in right. . . More to Come. . .

 

[jonheld]

Dude,

After hundreds of posts across 2 threads I've come to the conclusion that only you know what you're thinking.

It's a little frustrating sitting on this end of the keyboard.

 

[CJF]

It's a little frustrating sitting on this end of the keyboard.

Kind of entertaining to just watch from the sidelines though...

 

[SiRaDuDe]

I think I get what you are saying, that moving 1 degree is on the flywheel is not the same as moving 1 degree on the DIST, due to gears and gear reductions, but I cant tell you if its 2:1 or 1:2 or any other ratio, I'm not that smart..

 

[jonheld]

It's a 4 stroke motor. The crank turns twice for one rotation of the distributor.

 

[CJF]

More to Come. . .

Wellllll????????????

We're waiting...

 

[jcarter]

A little commentary, pics coming later

Commentary: I'll get the distributor degree pics a little later today. It's wet and chilly outside and I'm hungover after office cocktail party, then visiting a buddy at another party, then back to a bar for "after" office party. Before wife get's on me to build more shelves for crap in the basement, I keep explaining we have plenty of shelves, just too much crap, it doesn't sink in. WOMEN!. I got a little time to slam coffee and de-hangoverize.

I wanted to describe what I did last Saturday.

Used Distributor: Didn't fit! When I put it in, it stuck out 3/4" or so. Repeated several times (here I go again): adjusting oil pump slot, in, nope, out, repeat. Even tried bumping the motor to seat it, rotor was turning so gears were engaged, but it wouldn't fall in. CRAP!

Oil Pump Female: During the rebuild, I did take out the female of the oil pump from the block and wondered if I overtightened the female thing such that the oil pump circle did not line up with the distributor circle. So I loosened the bolts a bit that hold in the oil pump. Simply looking at it, it seemed the oil pump was a bit toward the PS (over-tightened bolts pulled it in too far). See pics. 2 bolts are really hard to get to hidden behind the oil cooler.




Still the used distributor wouldn't go in. Another 3 or 4 times trying. I think I'm in the triple-digits on install distributor attempts.

Compared used one and old one There was a 3/8" or so discrepancy in gear location on the shaft. Can't remember which was longer or shorter, but from oil pump male to bottom of gear was 3" on one and 2-5/8" on the other. Distance from top of gear to adjustment slot had 3/8" the other way (shafts were equal length, but gear in wrong location by 3/8"). I think it has something to do with my August 1992 3FE. Lots of parts say "90-7/92", with different part for "8/92+". I'll get part number off used one in a bit.

Old one At this point, I figured I may as well try to install the old one, again. Ain't gonna work, but don't have any other options. . . . Wait for it. . . . Is the suspense killing you? . . . . . Slid right in! Block said "Ahhh! Finally you came home to rest! We missed you buddy!" Timed with adjustment bolt perfectly in center of slot!

Why this time? The only thing I can think of is loosening the oil pump holder. Shoot, I need to double check I tightened it, should leak oil if not. Doesn't seem like it should make a difference, but maybe.

Mental Concern: [Block said "Ahhh! Finally you came home to rest! We missed you buddy!"] Is it normal for an engine to actually talk to you? Is this a 3FE thing or do the 1zfezf1z engines talk too?

Victory Run: We visited some friends about 30 miles away on Sunday. I still have a small exhaust leak at the manifold, but that's okay. It ran pretty good, just like before. It sounds "valvy" as my Dad called it. Maybe they're a little loose. After it warms up, it pretty much goes away. About 500 miles from now, I'm going to readjust valves, tighten head bolts, & install new OEM gas things (FPD & FPR), & change oil again. I changed the oil after about 20 miles and it was gray with rebuild metal shavings, not gritty, just gray, understandable with ball-honed cylinders.

Running rich Feels like she's running rich too. I hope the new gas things fix this. I know timing is right. Something else to troubleshoot later. For now I'll work on the 500 miles. I live close to EVERYTHING and don't want to do short trips (not fully heated up, bad on engine).

Gotta eat! Spanish Omelete = Awesome hangover food (eggs, tators, onions) when followed by a nap.

 

[jcarter]

Distributor Adjustment in Degrees



Couldn't get a good pic showing lines inside the gap, but the hold down bolt that goes in the gap would center on each of the 28 degree lines with a little extra. So, the slot allows ~30 degrees of adjustment.

Timing: Remember that "timing degrees" is taken on the crank shaft which turns twice for every one turn of the distributor rotor. In other words, the FSM says to time it at 7 degrees BTDC, you would twist the distributor 3-1/2 degrees to provide 7 degrees on the crank shaft. Therefore, the slot gives you 60 degrees of timing adjustment (30 x2). Which goes back to 6 plugs, 60 degrees apart (360/6=60).

Hope this helps someone in the future. Any other pics you may want?

Used Distributor: Tag on the distributor I bought says "TY35, 0503-18009, 0120-0103". I just Googled it, it is NOT an OEM distributor! It's a Richporter Technology (RPT) #TY35. I could have gotten a new one for $315, so $100 still isn't bad. It's kind of frustrating since I thought I was getting an OEM one and bought from a fellow mudder. Now what do I do? I guess I'll put it back in classifieds as a RPT TY35 distributor, but don't know if it'll fit any 3FE. I'll ask the parts gurus if my 8/1992 has a different distributor. O'Reilly's says it fits 88-1992 3FE. If I'm screwed, I'm surely not going to pass on a bad distributor to a fellow mudder, I'll take the hit and PM some choice words to the seller!

Please post if you want any other pics or have any questions or comments. I believe at this point we have successfully beaten the dead horse into mush and covered about everything we need to know about distributors in a 3FE.

 

[jonheld]

That sound you hear is my head slamming against my desk.

I'm glad you're up and running.

 

[jcarter]

Sum it up

Doing some clean up today and closing this.

What have we learned? Other than I'm an idiot and Jonheld & Pinhead are very patient.

Degrees: The pic shows degrees of the distributor which needs to be doubled figuring degrees of crankshaft.

I hope someone else dealing with a tricky distributor uses my ignorance to just keep trying to put it back in right and not make the same mistake by thinking too much.