Cylinder compression loss after timing chain replacement (1 Viewer)

[Mark W]

Yes, but is this real world, the doofus he had doing the work removed the parts, so there's no way to ensure they were put back together properly.

Replacing the chain only requires removing the camshafts. That does not require removing the head. If I'm missing something, I be very interested to know what it is.

The problem is that the head gasket extends over the timing cover. Trying to slide the timing cover back on with the head and head gasket in place is a surefire way to damage the head gasket in this area. Even a little damage will create an oil leak. It is almost certain to be more than just the little damage. Anything more than the tiniest damage will result in a significant oil leak. Not a seeping leak, but a flow of oil.

Mark...

 

[Malleus]

I'll buy that. The OP needs to budget for a new head gasket, in that case.

 

[Mark W]

I'll buy that. The OP needs to budget for a new head gasket, in that case.

Not if it is what I think it is. Just reinstall cams correctly or even just cam gear. Should be a quick and easy job. Neither the head or the timing cover need to be disturbed.


Mark...

 

[Broski]

The 1FZ-FE overhead cam engine is very much different than your normal overhead that most mechanics deal with. The cam timing setup is not difficult when following the factory service manual but there are some shuttle things that can easily missed. A lot threads over the years over the years with posts like yours.

I'd say there is a 100% chance that is your problem.

For you and others with MUD OCD, in the 21 years I've been a member of this forum there has ben 2 or 3 instances of timing chain failures. The chain tensioner is easily replaced in a few minutes time and the plastic chain guides get brittle and may need replacement but that is usually done just during a head gasket job. It's not something that will lead to a catastrophic failure leaving you stranded. There are many other things more important to address like the entire cooling system.

Bottom line you didn't need to replace the chain. It's bad to have the mindset of fixing everything until it breaks.

^^^ This there was no reason to replace the timing chain !
Sorry for your troubles, I hope you get it sorted

 

[Broski]

The problem is that the head gasket extends over the timing cover. Trying to slide the timing cover back on with the head and head gasket in place is a surefire way to damage the head gasket in this area. Even a little damage will create an oil leak. It is almost certain to be more than just the little damage. Anything more than the tiniest damage will result in a significant oil leak. Not a seeping leak, but a flow of oil.

Mark...

It’s been done without damaging the head gasket.

 

[Mark W]

It’s been done without damaging the head gasket.

I am sure that it *has* been. The odds are heavily against it though.

Mark...

 

[nashqadri]

Yes, but is this real world, the doofus he had doing the work removed the parts, so there's no way to ensure they were put back together properly.

Replacing the chain only requires removing the camshafts. That does not require removing the head. If I'm missing something, I be very interested to know what it is.

The timing chain cover has studs protruding outwards that get inserted into the head.

 

[Malleus]

You are correct. I forgot about those studs. It's been a while since I pulled a head; details, details.

 

[Mark W]

The timing chain cover has studs protruding outwards that get inserted into the head.

View attachment 3759458

You have that upside down. Those go into the oil pan.

Mark...

 

[mudgudgeon]

Mark W, looks like i may have found the culprit. Can you tell what this is ? Found it in the tool box in the garage.

View attachment 3758845

View attachment 3758846

Not an engine part. Looks like a bearing cap off a driveshaft universal joint.

 

[mudgudgeon]

Find a competent shop with a reputation for working in landcruisers. Have the car towed in for a proper diagnosis.

Or, keep throwing away money with mobile ok oil change specialists.

Sorry for your crappy situation, but to be blunt, you're out of your depth in shark infested water.
Your threads & posts prior to buying your cruiser demonstrate this loud and clear.

Good luck

 

[nashqadri]

The mechanics within my drivable radius are trying to pull an arm and a leg in this situation that is only if they agree to do it. A couple have refused to touch it. Dealer is asking for $6k labor only treating it a timing chain and a complete head job including valves etc. But I have taken your advice and asked the new guy to take out the camshaft completely with the timing gear and reinstall following step-by-step instructions from the service manual. I monitored him and he followed as I asked. Not done yet though. He’s scheduled to return on Wednesday. A few components are still not yet installed hopefully by the end of the Wednesday I will know what comes out of it.

 

[tmxmotorsports]

It’s been done without damaging the head gasket.

Sorry but no way I would pull a head off without replacing the headgasket

 

[nashqadri]

Sorry but no way I would pull a head off without replacing the headgasket

I might’ve missed it, but yes, the head gasket was installed brand new OEM.

 

[Broski]

Sorry but no way I would pull a head off without replacing the headgasket

No one in there right mind would !

 

[Mark W]

Sorry but no way I would pull a head off without replacing the headgasket

I think that he meant that timing covers have been replaced without pulling the head.

Mark...

 

[Mark W]

The mechanics within my drivable radius are trying to pull an arm and a leg in this situation that is only if they agree to do it. A couple have refused to touch it. Dealer is asking for $6k labor only treating it a timing chain and a complete head job including valves etc. But I have taken your advice and asked the new guy to take out the camshaft completely with the timing gear and reinstall following step-by-step instructions from the service manual. I monitored him and he followed as I asked. Not done yet though. He’s scheduled to return on Wednesday. A few components are still not yet installed hopefully by the end of the Wednesday I will know what comes out of it.

You are going to find that most shops are not going to want to take any major, or often even minor repair on your Cruiser. That is not where they make their money. Just not their business model. I used to refer some jobs to a friend who operates a very good shop. He is a Cruiser enthusiast even. Or was in the past. It got to the point that he was not only turning those jobs away, but asking me not to refer them.

Modern shops make their money on quick in and out work on modern cars. Not major jobs on older rigs. They lose money trying to acquaint themselves with the quirks of rigs that rolled off the production line before some of their mechanics were even born.

And... skilled labor is expensive. Comprehensive repairs are time consuming. Machine work as well.

Looks like the dealer might have been quoting the timing chain replacement and the head work as two separate jobs. In spite of the fact that head removal would have been included in the timing chain replacement. Unethical to say the least *IF* that is what they were doing.

16 hours for the timing chain job... an additional 10 hours to quote the head separately

Assume about $180 an hour as a guess for dealership labor rates in southern CA... that would put you at just under $4700 for labor... assume as much as $1000 for the head work if it is the dealership guys pricing it... add in all the various fees and stuff they might tack on...

Yep, $6K easy. Even if they didn't jerk you around, a price right around $5k would not surprise me.


My point... if you can not do the work yourself on your land Cruiser, you ARE gonna spend money.

Trying to save money by dropping down to the lower levels of the food chain... Not a good idea. I would assume that there has got to be at least one or two guys offering mobile automotive service in your area who are skilled and experienced, ethical, well equipped and capable of handling major repairs in your driveway. Maybe? possibly?
You are not gonna find them easily IF they are out there.


Next subject:

Anything that I or anyone else has said here should have been taken as conjecture and suggestion ONLY. You really should not be paying a mechanic to do a specific task on your vehicle based only on internet guesses! No matter how confident I or others may be about what the problem with your rig is... we still have not even laid eyes on it.

You never tell a professional mechanic what is wrong with your rig and tell him to fix it. Unless you are skilled enough yourself to have diagnosed it and would be able to fix it yourself and you just do not have the time. You tell him what the symptoms are, and pass on any GUESSES that you might have and task HIM to keep that in mind and determine what the actual problem is and to fix it.


If you tell him to do something, pay him to do something, he does it, and that was not the problem... now what?

If he can not figure the problem out himself... he is not the one to be working on the rig.

And... if someone is not qualified to work on your rig... "monitoring them... when you are also not qualified to work on the rig... solves nothing. If they ARE qualified to work on your rig and you "monitor" them to make sure they do it right... Seriously?

Find someone who can fix it WITHOUT you telling them what the internet told you to do... pay them what they are worth... step back and wait.

Mark...

 

[nashqadri]

I a

You are going to find that most shops are not going to want to take any major, or often even minor repair on your Cruiser. That is not where they make their money. Just not their business model. I used to refer some jobs to a friend who operates a very good shop. He is a Cruiser enthusiast even. Or was in the past. It got to the point that he was not only turning those jobs away, but asking me not to refer them.

Modern shops make their money on quick in and out work on modern cars. Not major jobs on older rigs. They lose money trying to acquaint themselves with the quirks of rigs that rolled off the production line before some of their mechanics were even born.

And... skilled labor is expensive. Comprehensive repairs are time consuming. Machine work as well.

Looks like the dealer might have been quoting the timing chain replacement and the head work as two separate jobs. In spite of the fact that head removal would have been included in the timing chain replacement. Unethical to say the least *IF* that is what they were doing.

16 hours for the timing chain job... an additional 10 hours to quote the head separately

Assume about $180 an hour as a guess for dealership labor rates in southern CA... that would put you at just under $4700 for labor... assume as much as $1000 for the head work if it is the dealership guys pricing it... add in all the various fees and stuff they might tack on...

Yep, $6K easy. Even if they didn't jerk you around, a price right around $5k would not surprise me.


My point... if you can not do the work yourself on your land Cruiser, you ARE gonna spend money.

Trying to save money by dropping down to the lower levels of the food chain... Not a good idea. I would assume that there has got to be at least one or two guys offering mobile automotive service in your area who are skilled and experienced, ethical, well equipped and capable of handling major repairs in your driveway. Maybe? possibly?
You are not gonna find them easily IF they are out there.


Next subject:

Anything that I or anyone else has said here should have been taken as conjecture and suggestion ONLY. You really should not be paying a mechanic to do a specific task on your vehicle based only on internet guesses! No matter how confident I or others may be about what the problem with your rig is... we still have not even laid eyes on it.

You never tell a professional mechanic what is wrong with your rig and tell him to fix it. Unless you are skilled enough yourself to have diagnosed it and would be able to fix it yourself and you just do not have the time. You tell him what the symptoms are, and pass on any GUESSES that you might have and task HIM to keep that in mind and determine what the actual problem is and to fix it.


If you tell him to do something, pay him to do something, he does it, and that was not the problem... now what?

If he can not figure the problem out himself... he is not the one to be working on the rig.

And... if someone is not qualified to work on your rig... "monitoring them... when you are also not qualified to work on the rig... solves nothing. If they ARE qualified to work on your rig and you "monitor" them to make sure they do it right... Seriously?

Find someone who can fix it WITHOUT you telling them what the internet told you to do... pay them what they are worth... step back and wait.

Mark...

Could'nt agree more. Tell them the symptoms and ask them for the fix so its their accountability to diagnose and apply the fix. Sharing some pictures as of this AM.

 

[jsloden]

I believe that you thought this was a timing belt that should be changed every100k miles or so. Timing chains are meant to last the life of the vehicle more or less. Hence, why it us usually much harder to replace one. Please do research on a job before you start on it or have someone else start on it. I think if you had done that then you would have realized that all of this was completely unnecessary. I hope this is important take away from this experience.

 

[manofthewoods]

I believe that you thought this was a timing belt that should be changed every100k miles or so. Timing chains are meant to last the life of the vehicle more or less. Hence, why it us usually much harder to replace one. Please do research on a job before you start on it or have someone else start on it. I think if you had done that then you would have realized that all of this was completely unnecessary. I hope this is important take away from this experience.

I said the same in post #11. You said it more clearly

As mentioned above. Realistically, these vehicles should only be in the hands of those willing and able to do all of the work themselves, including having another vehicle at the ready while project work is being performed and/or waiting on parts. Frankly, I wouldn't let anyone else work on mine