Cracked Birfield
- Thread starter NorCalSam
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I think you did great getting 180k out of an improperly lubed major assembly, particularly if you were wheeling it locked as well. As for the other trucks reaching much higher miles without maintanance, I can only assume their previous owners did in fact change the axle fluids/grease at some point and that is all it takes for an axle to last well over 200k - a single change in its life. However, your Cruiser must be one of the ones we stumble across here in the forum that has NEVER had its front axle serviced. Ever. And no axle will take that, but especially a front axle on a full time 4wd truck (I'm guessing the others you refer to were all part time 4wd. Toss in the locker, and you're gonna be buying $$$ birfields instead of a couple $4 tubs of grease.
Bummer it happened, but some of the search feature findings here will get you up to speed. As for "repacking" the rear axle", you might post a question here as to how it's done because that wording sounds like you're expecting to find similar stuff in the rear axle. You won't.
DougM
Bummer it happened, but some of the search feature findings here will get you up to speed. As for "repacking" the rear axle", you might post a question here as to how it's done because that wording sounds like you're expecting to find similar stuff in the rear axle. You won't.
DougM
Comparing the 80 to another 4x4 is really apples and oranges...like has been said the 80- full time 4WD, lockers and weight alone are enough to make the front axles night and day different from even other 4x4 SUV's.
Also from reading the last T.T. I caught onto an interesting idea...upgrading the birf and then pushing those limits will then cause you to find the "next" weakest link in the front axle. There will always be a weak link in any mechanical system, I believe Toyota was managing that weak link by using the birf. In the T.T. is talks about the difficultly of changing a birf on the trail as opposed to that next weakest link in the mechanical system...a birf doesn't look to bad. Also consider the cost is in this, yes birfs are expensive...but much cheaper than a new pumpkin....or transfer case...
just my $.02..
Also from reading the last T.T. I caught onto an interesting idea...upgrading the birf and then pushing those limits will then cause you to find the "next" weakest link in the front axle. There will always be a weak link in any mechanical system, I believe Toyota was managing that weak link by using the birf. In the T.T. is talks about the difficultly of changing a birf on the trail as opposed to that next weakest link in the mechanical system...a birf doesn't look to bad. Also consider the cost is in this, yes birfs are expensive...but much cheaper than a new pumpkin....or transfer case...
just my $.02..
I think the lubrication is indirectly involved with the breakages. If you examine the star and the bell you should see small grooves in each big "scollop" where the balls made contact with the bell and star. These are the grooves that create the clicking when turning. I believe that this is what causes the birfields to break because the ball gets stuck in the little groove when turned and does not allow the birfield to move the way it should, and then you break the cage.
If the lubrication was kept up with proper grease, the wear should be minimized and the chances of this happening is less. However 180k miles out of a set is pretty good.
I hope you guys at least cleaned the knuckle and replaced the inner axle seal. The 2nd bad part and probably worse of neglected maintenance is when the inner axle seal fails and the grease runs to the inside of the diff, turning the gear oil into slush. That is when you pull third member as well and replacing bearings. Seen that before.
Also, you can not compare a full time 4wd closed knuckle system with a part time cv joint system or the likes in terms of maintenance intervals etc.
Say it costs $1000 to replace the broken birf, you are still only at 0.005c per mile. Pretty good I would say.
If the lubrication was kept up with proper grease, the wear should be minimized and the chances of this happening is less. However 180k miles out of a set is pretty good.
I hope you guys at least cleaned the knuckle and replaced the inner axle seal. The 2nd bad part and probably worse of neglected maintenance is when the inner axle seal fails and the grease runs to the inside of the diff, turning the gear oil into slush. That is when you pull third member as well and replacing bearings. Seen that before.
Also, you can not compare a full time 4wd closed knuckle system with a part time cv joint system or the likes in terms of maintenance intervals etc.
Say it costs $1000 to replace the broken birf, you are still only at 0.005c per mile. Pretty good I would say.
- Thread starter
- #45
I was not trying to compare a IFS cv joint system to a full time 4wd closed knuckle system. I was just trying to point out that we never had a vehicle like this so how would we know. And I was trying to compare the rear axles to vechicles that I knew never had service. When I was a kid we had a constuction co. and we had 2 heavy Chevy pickup trucks. I don't ever remember hearing of or see any lubing of the front diffs of they trucks they to had much higher miles etc.
LOL.....I could just see me pulling out the rear and saying to myself....Where the F is the Birf? LOL. This is where I have come from and what I've learned.
Anyway the job is done I asked the tech to check everything and he said that all the seals looked good Knuckles, spinndles etc. So the job is done for now. Also while the truck was there for the week he was about to get rid of the vacuum problem code 71 and code 28 by odering a new O2 sensor. But did not have time to deal with the valve job and leaky valve cover. So it still leaks etc.
Thanks to all of your comments and suggestions. By the way, my wife and myself now know exactly what a birfield is and we will not forget it.
Also thanks to 4WD toyota owners magazine for their article on birfields and special thanks to Bobby Long who was so helpful on the phone. What agreat guy.
Sam and Tree
Sam and Teresa
LOL.....I could just see me pulling out the rear and saying to myself....Where the F is the Birf? LOL. This is where I have come from and what I've learned.
Anyway the job is done I asked the tech to check everything and he said that all the seals looked good Knuckles, spinndles etc. So the job is done for now. Also while the truck was there for the week he was about to get rid of the vacuum problem code 71 and code 28 by odering a new O2 sensor. But did not have time to deal with the valve job and leaky valve cover. So it still leaks etc.
Thanks to all of your comments and suggestions. By the way, my wife and myself now know exactly what a birfield is and we will not forget it.
Also thanks to 4WD toyota owners magazine for their article on birfields and special thanks to Bobby Long who was so helpful on the phone. What agreat guy.
Sam and Tree
Sam and Teresa
IdahoDoug said:
Actually, minus the birfield and steering knuckle, it's very similar. Bearings that need repacking, and oil seals that need replacing. I think people on this board worry so much about birfields that they probably neglect the rear axle. Most rear axles on other vehicles need the oil replaced occasionally, it's easy to overlook the additional maintenance the 'Cruisers require.
-Spike
NorCalSam said:[Moreso, we have owned other 4x4 vehicles with double the mileage and never have done maintenance on these parts and never had problems. We're probable just lucky, or maybe they would have never broke considering they didn't weigh close to what the 80 weighs, and they weren't locked. I think all of the factors lead to the problem (grease, weight, wheeling, lockers, etc...) Not just grease.
Teresa
LOL
The problem is 80 series aren't like other 4wd vehicles and they aren't even like other Land Cruiser models. The front axle needs the most maintanence of any LC because of the full time transfer case. Those front axle parts are getting constant wear.
NorCalSam said:
Sam,
This is my last post in this thread 'cause I'm starting to sound like a nay sayer.
You should verify that the tech replaced the inner axle seal. This is a $2 part and critical to a successful birfield repack. From what you have said, your inner axle seals have never been replaced up to now. If that's true then there is absolutely no way that the inner axle seals were OK. Two reasons.... Diff fluid was in your knuckle, and your truck has >160k miles. Those little seals should be replaced at ~60k miles; especially on the long side. For the Tech to inspect that seal he would likely have to destroy it. I don't think you can get it out without messing it up but regardless, it is unthinkable to put in new birfs and not to replace that seal and all the other seals.
Bottom line: IMHO, If the inner axle seal was not replaced with a new Toyota part then you have a problem on your hands.
I'm done.
-B-
- Thread starter
- #51
This sounds like a classic case of if you want it done right or the way you would like it done you need to do it yourself. The problem with that is you need to have the tools and know what the hell you are doing first. This or was not amater of a $2 part it is about the fact that at the time I ordered the parts I need not know that I needed to order these cheep parts. If I would have ordered these parts and told he to replace them it would have been done. No one told me that you should at leased replace these seals (only christo)and that was to late. Not any of you not Dennis @ CDPerformace not Bobbie Long.
The only advice we were given about things other than the Birf are about "since your in there you could do a rebuild on the knuckles replace the splines, seals, gears etc. if you have the time and money"
Well, we don't have the time or money. The vaulves have needed to be a ajusted since we bought it and the cover leaks. I tired to have this done while it was in but he ran out of time he has other customers.
I'll just have to do it myself. And I am not that concered about the knuckles beacuse I'll do that when I regear to 4.56s.
I will replace the seals at that point to, However, as I stated before and the experts have agreed or plain told me from a lubrication standpoint, I would think as long as the birfs are lubed by either grease or gear oil, they will be ok from that standpoint. Its a week link
Side note I don't think that I have grease getting into the diffs because I check the diff fluid almost every time I change the oil and it is very clean.
Anyway again thanks for all your help I now know a little bit more about the truck.
The only advice we were given about things other than the Birf are about "since your in there you could do a rebuild on the knuckles replace the splines, seals, gears etc. if you have the time and money"
Well, we don't have the time or money. The vaulves have needed to be a ajusted since we bought it and the cover leaks. I tired to have this done while it was in but he ran out of time he has other customers.
I'll just have to do it myself. And I am not that concered about the knuckles beacuse I'll do that when I regear to 4.56s.
I will replace the seals at that point to, However, as I stated before and the experts have agreed or plain told me from a lubrication standpoint, I would think as long as the birfs are lubed by either grease or gear oil, they will be ok from that standpoint. Its a week link
Side note I don't think that I have grease getting into the diffs because I check the diff fluid almost every time I change the oil and it is very clean.
Anyway again thanks for all your help I now know a little bit more about the truck.
There is a fill plug on the knuckle housing. From time to time you will want to inspect the grease content in the knuckle, and add some as needed. You will also want to keep an eye on the gear oil in the diff.
There are lots of birfield maint guides on the web. Here is one: http://george4wd.taskled.com/birfield.html
There are lots of birfield maint guides on the web. Here is one: http://george4wd.taskled.com/birfield.html
This is one of those things that is so often talked about we don't always cover the basics everytime.
My best advice to you is to ALWAYS get your parts from CruiserDan, he's got your back!
My best advice to you is to ALWAYS get your parts from CruiserDan, he's got your back!
landtank said:
You could also get in contact with John Hocker at Sierra Vista, Toyota-he may be slightly closer to you-small savings in shipping. Both John and Dan will fill you in on the necessities of the job (future reference of course
)Sorry no one gave you the info directly-For most of us a birf repack is a no-brainer and with all things that become second nature, assumptions of understanding are made. All of a sudden it goes from
to 1/2 Heck, if you are ever out this way or around I'd tear into the axle with you to do the seals-I keep 2 sets around the tool drawers at all times. Time is a killer, I know. But I would REALLY recommend you tear into the axle to do this hands on. It is a skill that proves to be the best "mental" investment you can make on an 80 sereis. And so as not to continue to assume; (1) grease into the axle housing or diff is the end of the seal deterioration-your first flow is gear oil into knuckle housing. Only when the grease/oil mixture is sufficiently merged will it flow "back" to the axle housing. (2) Opening the fill plug on the knuckle itself (accessible from the outside) may show the oil/grease sludge-but may not as well. Do not trust this plug-there are no "fast moving parts" within the cavity that it accesses between the knuckle housing and knuckle-thereby not providing even distribution of existing and/or added grease-the only proper way to inspect and add grease to the birfiled assembly is to remove the hub and spindle
Anyone on this list around or near you? Ask for a bit of help over a weekend. Someone good with this job can have your tires back on the ground in less than 3 hrs-both sides. If you have confirmed that the axle seal was not replaced-you should do that seal soon. I know I would not be bothered to be asked by another CruiserHead near me for help. I am sure I'll be back over to Durango60s place soon for his newly acquired 80 series birf job and some beers.
Provided I get my bike ride that day and my wife gives the "nod"
Didn't know you were going to get this ganged up on when you posted did you Theresa???
I'm in a similar position. I considered the Chromoly longfields. After speaking with Bobby and him realizing mine is a DD, he thought OEM may be the way to go. The Newfields are softer, but stronger under the 4x4 crawling most of you do. As for miles in the DD situation, I may have to suck it up and send CDan more $$$, but for the RIGHT part. Maybe I'll stop using it as a DD and buy an old NC Highway Patrol Cruiser. Hmmm.
BTW, I appreciate all the options and opinions from members looking to help members not make the same mistakes they did before they became members.
I'm always open to all of your opinions and advice.
LOL
Rob
BTW, I appreciate all the options and opinions from members looking to help members not make the same mistakes they did before they became members.
I'm always open to all of your opinions and advice.
LOL
Rob
Rich said:
Ditto this question. I thought his old treated ones were this way but not the current version.
My understanding is that for on road driving, the OEM's are better suited. Albeit, I'm at 120,000 miles with no record of PO service on front axle and I'm in need of new ones. I understood Bobby to say that I shouldn't expect to get more than 80-100,000 miles out of his chromoly longfields when used on road, i.e., Daily Driver.
I understood his analysis to be the OEM birfs are harder and will last longer under DD conditions when compared to his chromoly longfields which are softer but perform better off-road.
I believe that the harder the birfield material (OEM) the more prone to cracking or exploding when put under very stressful offroading environments and therefore, his softer material longfields are better engineered for the offroading applications but would wear faster if used primarily on-road.
For my 1992 FJ80, the 27 / 30 spline chromoly supersets will not work. I do not address his "supersets" or their specifications in this email except to say that they appear to made of the same material. So if I am to purchase from Bobby at ToyotaSuperAxles.com, my option is their 4340 chromoly longfield and it is this longfield he led me to believe is not as well suited for MY application as the OEM birfields are made of a harder material.
Should I decide to turn my 92 FJ80 into a trail truck (wish I could right now), then the chromoly longfield may be as good if not superior to the OEM under these trail conditions.
I hope that helps clarify my prior email.
Rob
I understood his analysis to be the OEM birfs are harder and will last longer under DD conditions when compared to his chromoly longfields which are softer but perform better off-road.
I believe that the harder the birfield material (OEM) the more prone to cracking or exploding when put under very stressful offroading environments and therefore, his softer material longfields are better engineered for the offroading applications but would wear faster if used primarily on-road.
For my 1992 FJ80, the 27 / 30 spline chromoly supersets will not work. I do not address his "supersets" or their specifications in this email except to say that they appear to made of the same material. So if I am to purchase from Bobby at ToyotaSuperAxles.com, my option is their 4340 chromoly longfield and it is this longfield he led me to believe is not as well suited for MY application as the OEM birfields are made of a harder material.
Should I decide to turn my 92 FJ80 into a trail truck (wish I could right now), then the chromoly longfield may be as good if not superior to the OEM under these trail conditions.
I hope that helps clarify my prior email.
Rob