Broken LC250

[Rednexus]

Do you think Toyota, a company that's been building legendary 4wd trucks for decades, would somehow forget how to bolt together a Landcruiser? Or Prado, or whatever you want to call it. You must have some serious engineering chops, if you have more knowledge than the guys that designed this, please list what they are. I have no idea why certain design decisions are made, unfortunately, they don't always check in with me during the engineering process. I just trust that they're going to put out another awesome truck. I've got a bunch of em, and so far, not one has let me down. The fact that some attention ho broke one for you tube means absolutely nothing to me.

Yes, Toyota is 100% forgetting how to design things. Despite making a bulletproof 2UZ-FE, Toyota somehow forgot how to engineer main bearings and crankshafts that don't eat themselves alive (VA35A); despite the A750F being near-bulletproof, they forgot how to design transmissions that don't cook themselves to death (A760F in the GX460).

We have to remember that most of the Toyota platform was, until recently, very dated. My GX470 would have been designed in the late 1990s; the 100 series would have been the early/mid-1990s; even the 2nd gen Tundra and 200 would have been designed in the early 2000s. The lead design engineers and management Toyota had 25-35 years ago would have all retired by now. Different people are now running the show.

I see this happen with companies in my industry all the time. They get an awesome reputation, then people retire, management changes, or the company gets bought out. They start delivering an inferior product/service while still charging a premium price. High-performing talent start jumping ship, and the reputation of the company eventually degrades. Hopefully Toyota rights the ship so I have something to buy when my GX470 wears out.

 

[loop737]

Yes, Toyota is 100% forgetting how to design things. Despite making a bulletproof 2UZ-FE, Toyota somehow forgot how to engineer main bearings and crankshafts that don't eat themselves alive (VA35A); despite the A750F being near-bulletproof, they forgot how to design transmissions that don't cook themselves to death (A760F in the GX460).

We have to remember that most of the Toyota platform was, until recently, very dated. My GX470 would have been designed in the late 1990s; the 100 series would have been the early/mid-1990s; even the 2nd gen Tundra and 200 would have been designed in the early 2000s. The lead design engineers and management Toyota had 25-35 years ago would have all retired by now. Different people are now running the show.

I see this happen with companies in my industry all the time. They get an awesome reputation, then people retire, management changes, or the company gets bought out. They start delivering an inferior product/service while still charging a premium price. High-performing talent start jumping ship, and the reputation of the company eventually degrades. Hopefully Toyota rights the ship so I have something to buy when my GX470 wears out.

Well, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree, I think maybe you're spending too much time on the Internet.

 

[Rednexus]

Well, I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree, I think maybe you're spending too much time on the Internet.

Could you elaborate on specific statements/facts from my post that you do not agree with, including why you don't agree with them? Otherwise, I'm confused as to what you are actually disagreeing with. One of your posts on this thread was simply "You don't know what you are talking about", another was criticizing someone for criticizing Toyota's engineering, and now we have "your spending too much time on the internet".

If you happen to have factual information or evidence-based opinions to share in this thread, I'm happy to debate them with you - in fact that one of my favorite things to do on the internet. Otherwise, this is nothing more than to good old-fashioned trolling.

 

[calokie]

Did you even watch the video?
No FJ Cruiser was built in 2003. He is not comparing it to his FJ.
He goes in depth about the CV joint and the rear diff comparison.
It clearly shows LC250 are weaker than Tacoma and 4Runner. Which is blasphemy. LC supposed to be on top of the line up. Especially not below those two.
Toyota definitely targeting more Mall Crawler buyer for US edition of LC2550.

yea did you....even watch the video?
if you watched the video you would see him crying and saying..."that's not supposed to happen". when he compares the steering feel of his 2006 highly modified FJ to a stock 2024 LC250.
Don't know about you... but i've never purposely driven down a straight road yanking my wheel back and forth (except when i was a teenager and was trying to joke with my passengers)
Also its very obvious why Toyota gave the LC a 17gallon tank compared to his 2006 FJ, Since your a Toyota expert like Tinker I assume you know the answer. and its not my next point....

FJ cruiser 19 gallons @ 18 mpg (but your gonna get 13-14)
lC250 17.9 gallon @ 26 mpg
Do the math and see who has a better range

Anyone who owns an IFS toyotas knows the CV axles are the weak link. (except 100 series owners)
there reasons why toyota selected "the weaker tripod" for the LC250..... we can only speculate. i doubt it was to save money
one possible reason for the tripod cv is, tripod cv wont seize after failure (you can still drive home),
Maybeeee Toyota underestimated the power and torque of the LC250 hybrid

As a friendly comparison:
GX460 = 301hp / 329 LB-Ft Torque @ 16/19 (19mpg lol that will be the day)
LC250 H = 326hp /465 Lb-Ft Torque @ 25mpg
the GX460 has a very anemic driving feel, its "slug like"
I test drove a 2023 GX and im very happy I waited for the LC250, its so fun to drive.

 

[ElJayBird]

i doubt it was to save money

That’s precisely why they did it. Lots of components in the new US Land Cruiser are smaller/thinner than previous generations and that’s by design - because it’s a light duty Prado.

It’s fine. The lengths you guys go through to try to get around the fact that it’s a Prado is just weird.

You bought marketing. The US Land Cruiser is built to sell to US consumers. 200 Series sales demonstrated what US consumers wanted. People weren’t willing to pay close to $100k for a Toyota - they wanted the luxury badge for that kind of price. That’s why the LX outsold the LC by 2-3x.

So what we got was what the sales data supported - an over-optioned 300 series with a luxury badge and a rebadged Land Cruiser Prado.

 

[Rednexus]

That’s precisely why they did it. Lots of components in the new US Land Cruiser are smaller/thinner than previous generations and that’s by design - because it’s a light duty Prado.

I have a light duty Prado. It's a very weak, under-powered vehicle, with fragile drivetrain components, especially considering it's advanced age of 19. It's certainly not capable of dragging heavy loads up and down steep hills, nor halfway across the country, up and down mountain passes.

 

[ElJayBird]

I have a light duty Prado. It's a very weak, under-powered vehicle, with fragile drivetrain components, especially considering it's advanced age of 19. It's certainly not capable of dragging heavy loads up and down steep hills, nor halfway across the country, up and down mountain passes.
View attachment 4181960
View attachment 4181959

I was speaking literally. Look up the Land Cruiser family tree.

I drive a station wagon most days. Don’t be so sensitive, Dorothy.

 

[Rednexus]

I was speaking literally. Look up the Land Cruiser family tree.

I drive a station wagon most days. Don’t be so sensitive, Dorothy.

I've seen the family tree; the Lexus GX is not on it. I suppose they need to add the Heavy Duty Prado branch as the UZJ100 drivetrain in my UZJ120 does make it more capable than the Prado equivalent .

FWIW, the most underwhelming vehicle I've ever ridden in was a 70 series mining truck. All the mystique...the rarity....for something that felt like a 1997 F250 on the inside.

 

[Tex68w]

Doesn’t the GX550 have the exact same front suspension as a LC250? Axles and all?

Different CV axles; the 6th Gen and GX550 have better articulation. The GX550 has a much stronger rear axle as well. I broke CV's on the 200 multiple times. It's sad that the LC 250 broke in stock form with small-ish tires.

 

[bj70bc]

What is weird is people not understanding nuance. Something can be both better and worse at the same time.
Two opposing truths can both be true.... at the same time.
(its like 'some people' have had their thinking taught to them by a polarized political country where there are only two options....weird) I said it

You cant engineer for everyone, use case and design goals are what rules the day here, and no company wants to overengineer something that isnt going to sell because they targeted the wrong demographic or misunderstood WHO they were selling it to....cry about it, youre not the buyer, so dont buy it, or replace all the shiity parts with upgrades like all of us have been doing to all our trucks forever, yes, even the 70 series.
Good price, creature comforts, durability..... pick two....... and sometime just one

The PRADO 250 ( if you can cross-reference all the parts with different named vehicle, ITS THAT VEHICLE, either direction) is good for what it is, but perhaps not quite as good as older prados... and too expensive, like anything else new nowadays.

This isnt an argument, the vehicle is plainly what it is

'Unwatch'....

 

[Zill]

yea did you....even watch the video?
if you watched the video you would see him crying and saying..."that's not supposed to happen". when he compares the steering feel of his 2006 highly modified FJ to a stock 2024 LC250.
Don't know about you... but i've never purposely driven down a straight road yanking my wheel back and forth (except when i was a teenager and was trying to joke with my passengers)
Also its very obvious why Toyota gave the LC a 17gallon tank compared to his 2006 FJ, Since your a Toyota expert like Tinker I assume you know the answer. and its not my next point....

FJ cruiser 19 gallons @ 18 mpg (but your gonna get 13-14)
lC250 17.9 gallon @ 26 mpg
Do the math and see who has a better range

Anyone who owns an IFS toyotas knows the CV axles are the weak link. (except 100 series owners)
there reasons why toyota selected "the weaker tripod" for the LC250..... we can only speculate. i doubt it was to save money
one possible reason for the tripod cv is, tripod cv wont seize after failure (you can still drive home),
Maybeeee Toyota underestimated the power and torque of the LC250 hybrid

As a friendly comparison:
GX460 = 301hp / 329 LB-Ft Torque @ 16/19 (19mpg lol that will be the day)
LC250 H = 326hp /465 Lb-Ft Torque @ 25mpg
the GX460 has a very anemic driving feel, its "slug like"
I test drove a 2023 GX and im very happy I waited for the LC250, its so fun to drive.

They threw in weak components in the LC 250 due to having to meet last minute mpg claims.

Remember when they first launched the LC 250 where they claimed it was going to have roughly 30 highway mpg?

Turns out, it didn’t come close to that with the beefier components, so they reduced the CV axles and reduced the diff size in order to reduce weight and rotating mass (which heavily impacts mpg), to just eek out their “tested” 25 mpg.

Also, the claim about the mpg being 26 is total hogwash. You might get 22 mpg on a good day, but it’s actually 18-19 mpg on most commutes so the measly 17.9 gallon tank, which starts to warn you that the gas is low once you’ve consumed ~14 gallons, is a major fail. If you ever throw on bigger LT tires, you’re looking at 14-16 mpg which is just atrocious for a 4 cylinder.

Also, that 4 cylinder in the LC 250 is anemic when you romp on it to pass a car. They tuned it so you feel the majority of the power at 20-50% throttle (so it feels somewhat fast on daily driving), but when you need the power to pass, it falls on its face. Enter the last gen V8’s with a linear power band and they actually feel good to drive when you get into the high rpm band.

0-60 times:
GX 460 - 7.5 seconds
LC 200 - 6.7 seconds
LC 250 - 8.2 seconds

 

[MRego]

I am just gonna throw this here and watch the flames. lol. First 14 mins is all you need to watch.

To be fair at least the guy had some some heavy ass tires on that taco, not some puny 32s.

 

[Rednexus]

Also, the claim about the mpg being 26 is total hogwash. You might get 22 mpg on a good day, but it’s actually 18-19 mpg on most commutes so the measly 17.9 gallon tank, which starts to warn you that the gas is low once you’ve consumed ~14 gallons, is a major fail. If you ever throw on bigger LT tires, you’re looking at 14-16 mpg which is just atrocious for a 4 cylinder.

That's quite similar fuel economy that is reported for the GX460, which is also around 700# lighter than the LC250. And, not drastically different than my ancient 470 on the highway, although I am sure the LC250 has much better city MPG.

What's perplexing to me is that Toyota is (IMO) the undisputed leader in car/crossover hybrids. How can our Highlander Hybrid be so good (dead-simple engineering that routinely beats it's EPA mileage estimates, 500+ miles of range, great passing power, 7.3-second 0-60 time), yet the different parallel hybrid technology in the LC250 come up short in MPG and reported power/acceleration?

 

[Tex68w]

That's quite similar fuel economy that is reported for the GX460, which is also around 700# lighter than the LC250. And, not drastically different than my ancient 470 on the highway, although I am sure the LC250 has much better city MPG.

What's perplexing to me is that Toyota is (IMO) the undisputed leader in car/crossover hybrids. How can our Highlander Hybrid be so good (dead-simple engineering that routinely beats it's EPA mileage estimates, 500+ miles of range, great passing power, 7.3-second 0-60 time), yet the different parallel hybrid technology in the LC250 come up short in MPG and reported power/acceleration?

Gearing, weight, aero, rotational mass.

 

[Noctilucent]

How about a productive question? Does anyone know if the 250 shares the same rear end and CV across the globe or do other markets get the heavier duty gear? Only thing I know of for sure is the different engine and trim options offered overseas. Speaking of which, that 4 cyl diesel sounds sweet. MUCH better than the petrol.

That's a great question. I've wondered the same.

 

[Dragos80]

A small engine in a heavy car will struggle more under similar driving conditions as a larger engine therefore fuel economy will not be kind to the smaller engine.
This concept is not something new, it's been known to the car industry for decades.

Since a few people around the world seem to lead everyone else and they do not understand anything they get to make the rules.

In order to be profitable and sell more than the competition manufacturers load the vehicles with options and new technology to attract more buyers. All this comes with a price... added weight. All this weight directly affects the engine performance and fuel economy (remember V8's are cursed in our current times they are the devil). Lighter materials are being used at the expense of durability. Since most wives will not go off road in their pretty and comfy "Land Cruiser", the chances for a warranty repair is low. Warranty repairs can also be denied based on the fine print nobody reads which I am sure Toyota and all other manufacturers wrote in the contract signed at the dealer.
Remember there are stickers placed on the sun visors stating you should never add any electronic devices because they may interfere with the vehicle's operation. There are clauses written about everything.

Anyway, every thing is about compromises.
Some people were fooled into the showroom by the "Land Cruiser" tag and of course their wives.

Stop bitching about it and live with your poor decision.

 

[JWNissan]

Mechanical sympathy while wheeling goes a lone way.

If you're going to wheel an LC250 then you should really upgrade to the Tacoma CVs. They are stronger and offer more droop. We have the most modified and wheeled 250 on the planet and still haven't broken a CV or tie rod. Even on the Rubicon with 38" tires prior to going with portals and 40s.

 

[Rednexus]

Gearing, weight, aero, rotational mass.

EDIT: A little Friday lunch-break fun. C&D makes this easy as they have test reports dating back 20+ years on their website. The LC250 should be a lot faster than it is, it should be comparable to a GX460 or LC200. The GX470 and GX460 both seem to over-perform significantly in terms of power-to-weight, even given crappy OEM gearing. I'm not sure why the LC250 does so poorly considering it should have a much broader/smoother torque curve than a NA V6 or V8 with the turbo and hybrid powertrain. Toyota's crossover-based hybrids also pull well above their weight compared to the SUVs.

Regardless, the only quantitative benefit I'm seeing here for the LC250 is fuel economy.

Vehicle	Curb Weight (Pounds)	Peak Horsepower	Torque	Test Observed MPG	0-60 Time (Seconds)	Final Drive Ratio	Pounds per HP	Pounds per ft lb	Source
2005 Lexus GX470	4904	263	320	16	7.2	3.73	18.6	15.3	2007 Luxury SUV Winter Showdown in Michigan's Upper Peninsula - https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a15146309/bmw-x5-vs-acura-mdx-cadillac-srx-m-b-ml350-lexus-gx470-volvo-xc90-vw-touareg-land-rover-lr3-comparison-tests/
2016 Lexus GX460	5211	301	329	17	7.0	3.91	17.3	15.8	Tested: 2016 Lexus GX460 Spottings of the woolly mammoth continue. www.caranddriver.com
2020 Toyota LC200 Heritage Edition	5851	381	401	14	7.0	3.31	15.4	14.6	Tested: 2020 Toyota Land Cruiser Rediscovers Its Off-Road Roots - https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a32250309/2020-toyota-land-cruiser-heritage-edition-drive/
2023 Toyota 4Runner TRD Pro	4800	270	278	17	7.7	3.73	17.8	17.3	Tested: 2022 Toyota 4Runner TRD Pro Is an SUV from the Jurassic Era - https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a38696388/2022-toyota-4runner-trd-pro-by-the-numbers/
2025 LC250 FE	5639	326	465	20	7.7	3.58	17.3	12.1	2024 Toyota Land Cruiser Tested: Is It the Real Deal? - https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a61557962/2024-toyota-land-cruiser-first-edition-test/
2023 Toytoa Highlander Hybrid AWD	4615	243	186	29	7.3	-	19.0	24.8	2023 Toyota Highlander Hybrid Review, Pricing, and Specs The Highlander Hybrid may be the OG in the hybrid SUV segment, but it remains relevant thanks to its high-value formula of practicality and fuel efficiency. www.caranddriver.com

 

[Jstawgn]

I am just gonna throw this here and watch the flames. lol. First 14 mins is all you need to watch.

To be fair at least the guy had some some heavy ass tires on that taco, not some puny 32s.

That one that broke is the stronger double offset Cv.
I watched R4T video when he broke it last year but did not see this follow up video.
Acccording to the chief engineer, both front and rear axle are designed to snap to save other parts. What a mess up logic. This is non hybrid so might have 8.2 rear axle same as land cruiser.

 

[Dragos80]

Get the 250's transmission on the 5th Gen 4Runner and enjoy amazing fuel economy.