ATEB complaint rebuttal

[sailor]

We are motoring through this slowly and I am sure it is becoming monotonous. My apologies, but Lance and I feel it is important to see this through. There was another complaint several months ago that got some attention on 'mud. Only half of the story was presented there as well. There was a full refund given in that situation as well that wasn't mentioned by the poster, yet he still went away with his parts- I'm sure ateb still has the negotiated cancelled cheque..

I get annoyed by stuff like this and tend to lose objectivity at times, I will try to keep it in line.

 

[d0ubledown]

man...now i really regret not buying an 81. you guys are having all the fun!

thanks for clearing the air lance n graham. its not often a shop that has had bad 'reps' has online ambassador(s) to ensure their side of the stories gets out to the interwebs. s***ty that it has to come to this, but its a necessary evil i suppose.

if i did have an 81, it'd most likely be serviced @ ateb. of course my cheap ass would have probably made me learn the hard way, after taking it to 'other' jdm shops only to find out those few dollars i saved on a hack job would have been better spent 'investing' in a good rapport with a knowledged shop like ateb.

we're not dealing with civics or cavaliers here folks...jdm's and especially cruisers are a niche market vehicle...and deserve knowledged techs wrenching on them and diagnosing issues. the fact that the richmond shop couldnt figure out a start issue after a few days where ateb nails it in half a day speaks volumes of their knowledge of these types of vehicles.

the old cliche: you can have good/cheap/fast work done to your vehicle. pick 2...

 

[canucksafari]

Canuck Safari, at the time you were there for the wheel bearings, that was when they had a bunch of vehicles comming from Outback, and those bearings were slated for a Safari from Outback. If they sold you the part, and had to order another one, that would of delayed that job, because they would be up in the air waiting for another set of bearings, since they are not as common as the Toyota parts. Was it Ken you were dealing with, the guy that sailor mentioned in that scam?

Okay, one last time for clarity...

The first item was the filters that they wouldn't sell me after Abbotsford Nissan told me to call them up. The reason was given they needed them for their own customers. That perturbed me a bit. You don't usually advertise that you sell parts and not sell them. I guess they couldn't exactly tell me they didn't have any in stock. I did tell him that Abbotsford Nissan had told me to call them because they had just sent ATEB the last of their stock. If it was because of trucks they needed to service for Outback, they should have said that.

The next time was a call asking about what it would cost to repack and set the front bearings. IMO, the price was too high. But that's just my opinion.

The last time which really pissed me off was over the rotor. When I told him that it was for an ICBC claim and that the body shop would be putting it in, he refused to sell it.

I can't remember who I spoke to in these three instances. All of them were in the time frame of when this guy Ken would have been there.

In none of the instances was it the end of the world for me. They all were a bit of an inconvenience and aggravating at the time. However, on the flip side, they forced me to do more learning/searching for other options. IMO, in the end I came out ahead.

I am glad some people are finding they are getting good service from them. That said, I still will first recommend other businesses who have been involved with the club, IH8MUD and other Land Cruiser groups over ATEB.

Whether or not they care to realize it, ATEB does have some very skilled competition in BC. Word of mouth advertising is a powerful tool. It might be healthy for their business if they did invest some time in the community they service like other businesses have done. It doesn't matter what sector it is, most successful business believe it is important to give back to the community that are their bread and butter. In return, all things being equal, I think it is important for the community to support those businesses.

I would also presume that if they were involved in the community, there would be fewer "misunderstandings" about their work or service. You guys might want to suggest that to them. Cruiser Days 2011 might be a good start.

As for stocking HDJ81 parts, I don't think there is any value in threatening about not selling parts. For those wanting to do a bit of research, there are many options now for the JDM owner. I would expect RMI would have as good of stock or better than ATEB. There seems to be quite a bit of trade between JDM parts retailers as well as them having their own parts suppliers overseas. JDM parts also can come from overseas as fast as it takes to ship them in Canada. Rush parts can often be had cheaper if a person orders from overseas on their own rather than through a local retailer. It is rare to be charged import duty and taxes on small orders. That said, one should expect to pay a premium on parts stocked by retailers here. After all, they have to pay all the duties and the cost of keeping stock.

A question, why did ATEB refund ATIBI's money if they didn't do anything wrong? I know if I was in their shoes, I sure wouldn't be doing that or my business would soon be broke.

It'll be interesting to hear ATIBI's responses to the counter claims. As the world turns...

 

[Abitibi]

Can't argue, there's always two sides to a story... I'll try to keep it brief.

LanceCruiser has the most accurate "other side" of the story but with still some unanswered points. Sailor, you put too much between the lines.

As I initially pointed out, I don't think these are bad guys but I'm only stating my negative experience and personal impression.

On my initial dealing (Safety Switch) it is as it is. They said I needed it, I called MVB in Victoria who assured me it wasn't. I was charged approx. $230 for something that I didn't need. Yes, it is safer and was explained by John but for the last 25 yrs that I've been driving MT I've made the habit from the get go to move my shifter in neutral and depressing the clutch before start up. I'm the only one driving this truck. So, the bottom of it is I didn't need it and got charged for it. I heard John's point and that's why I still offered to pay for the part (not sure if a safety switch is worth $80 but that's what I paid him).

As for your comment "so when you found someone that supported you at MVB, they were good enough to give you the benefit of a doubt, and gave you your money back." It's not a question to be supported at MVB but simply the legislation. I was also good enough to ask ATEB to show me the document stating where it's required. They tried but couldn't produce such document. If they did it would have been a different story.

On my second issue (difficult cold start) it simply took that long 'cause I only have so much time available to deal with this 2nd truck. The first shop took me between appointments and didn't charge me for their work, only for the price to fix the ECU ($130) and they told me they didn't have time to test it (warm engine) and to keep that in mind. Ideally they would have caught the fried relay but c'est la vie.

ATEB is 2km from my house so very convenient. They were helpful by pointing out the undersized plug wires so I went back home and oversized them. No issue here. I took the truck back when I found the time, another week or so, what's the big deal? The story is as I said it first. They told me the relay and ECU were fried, the relay was, the ECU wasn't. They didn't say anything about spending 1/2 day checking the wiring. As far as I know they may have looked at it in depth or they could have quickly tested the relay and guessed on the ECU and charged me 2hrs for a 30min job. No idea. But a ECU either works or doesn't when it's sole job is running the glow plugs. It's frustrating when you're told it's fried only to find out it's working fine... It's also frustrating when you bring it to ATEB's attention (wouldn't you like to know if it was you?) and they go right away on the defensive.

I could and probably should go more in details here but I'd rather play with my truck than write about it... I was thankful for their advise and could have become a loyal customer if I hadn't lost faith after 2 dubious circumstances.

Mr. D

 

[Glenn-BJ74]

for me in my dealings with humanity its three strikes and your out ...

 

[canucksafari]

for me in my dealings with humanity its three strikes and your out ...

I usually do that too Glenn. But sometimes all it takes is one big strike. Some day over a beer I tell you about a one striker. I don't think we can handle any more drama now.

 

[LanceCruiser]

I just posted their side of things and my opinion, and people can come to there own conclusions.

CanuckSafari/John, I respect what you do for the RHD community and the IVOAC. You do a great job keeping us informed. I don't want this to turn thread into a pissing contest, but I am going to state my facts. You say they don't contribute to this community. Yes, they are not a member on ih8mud, but they do do business with other ih8mud members and businesses. You say they don't contribute to Cruiser Days, but in some small ways they do. Maybe they will put in more support, when they slow things down at ATEB. Sunday is usually their only day off, and that is spent with family. They do show up for Cruiser Days when they can, John showed up later in the day with a clients 45 troopy they take care of this past event. I see John wearing a army green 2009' Cruiser Days T-shirt around the shop with the 45 on it. They've allowed me to post our Cruiser Days posters every where in their shop for their clients that are not on ih8mud. They gave Abitibi his money back out of integrity. They did the same for me, actually it was for another business that they deal with. They gave me whole day of their time, and didn't charge me for it. I don't know if they felt bad for me, because I was laid-off from my work over the summer. Who knows? John just said I want you to be happy with your truck. That's all I have to say about that.

Abitibi, thanks for replying. I'm done with this thread.

 

[tlc81]

upper rad hose

the kit was never ordered. Helene got a price and called me back quoted me $120.00 for one hose, I politely informed her I would look elsewhere, it was just too steep. They did not order the hose so must be someone else with a 60. I have an 80, this is my second. my first was serviced by ATEB upon entry into Canada, just like dozens and dozens of others destined for sale by Outback Imports.
I have spent close to 10 thousand dollars there in the last 6 years over my twO different 80's. I have had pleasant experiences and not so good experiences everything from complete front end jobs, to clutch to complete custom exhuast to suspension to ordering ARB bumpers and custom wiring etc etc.
Just like any other service shop you can have problems. their knowledge of JDM cruisers is probalbly second to none but as i mentioned before I have had issues with purchasing accesories and with prices quoted over the phone.
When there is over a litre of extra oil after getting them to do an oil change I am disappointed. Maybe I expect too much

 

[toynut]

 

[Radd Cruisers]

A few notes from my side of things... just about service.

No comments from me about ATEB, since they generally have a reputation for good service. Every business screws up from time to time - it's usually an individual thing, and business owners really do care about getting things right.

When you have 100s of 1000s of $$ tied up in your business, it is of critical importance to keep as many people happy as possible as much of the time as possible.

Some clients really do make it hard for us, however - the "oh, I'll send you a cheque in the mail" kind... after they called you on your home phone (how they got my number, I'll never know) so that you can go down the shop on your one day off that week to break up a kit and send them the one part that they need, and then they take 3 weeks to send you a cheque for the wrong amount after you've called them several times a day during the whole frustrating three weeks. When you call to get a cheque for the correct amount... well, I'm still waiting a******!!

I certainly make goof-ups from time to time, but I also try to get things right far more often than not. Also, small businesses are VERY demanding on time - both during business hours and during your "off" business hours... there is really no such thing as totally free time when you're in a service business and you're a small fish in a big sea.

The book rate for repacking wheel bearings is 4.5 hours. This includes the work being properly done and the parts being thoroughly cleaned and re-lubricated etc. It is never a 30 minutes per side job. If someone is doing it in less than, say, 3.5 hours, I would question the quality of their workmanship.

The neutral safety switch is required in automatics, and that is what the aforementioned letter says - it's just that it does not specifically say that. If you take the time to actually read the inspection requirements in detail, you will find that where a neutral safety switch (and just about any other factory installed safety feature) was installed in that particular vehicle, then it must remain in place and be in good working order. There is no requirement in BC to install such a switch in a manual transmission vehicle where one did not already exist.

As for parts cost: there is a HUGE variability in the cost of parts, and it depends on where they were sourced from, the manufacturer of the parts, and how quickly the person wanted them. Speed costs money, there is no way around that - if you want things in a hurry, there is pretty much an exponential increase in the cost of freight. Factory parts are going to cost substantially more than aftermarket (even where the quality is the same).

If you are buying your parts at a service only shop, when you are getting service performed, you can expect to pay somewhat more most of the time. In return, these shops will usually warranty the parts and the installation for some period of time - typically 12 months and 20,000 kms. Warranty work, albeit not very common, does cost shops enormously and it is to be avoided as much as possible by using good quality parts and doing premium service.

Anyhow, I'll go back and read the rest of this thread before bed.


~John

 

[Radd Cruisers]

[...]

They didn't say anything about spending 1/2 day checking the wiring. As far as I know they may have looked at it in depth or they could have quickly tested the relay and guessed on the ECU and charged me 2hrs for a 30min job. No idea. But a ECU either works or doesn't when it's sole job is running the glow plugs. It's frustrating when you're told it's fried only to find out it's working fine... It's also frustrating when you bring it to ATEB's attention (wouldn't you like to know if it was you?) and they go right away on the defensive.

[...]

Mr. D

If we're talking about a Mitsubishi ECU, they can be intermittent as they are dying, and it can take several hours just to diagnose it and figure out exactly what is going on. Often the diagnosis starts by checking the relay function, then pulling the glow plugs and glow testing the old ones/installing new ones (the system will fail to glow if the plugs do not return a good total circuit resistance value - eg: worn out or dead plugs)... then it's on to the wiring and other gremlins... Just the out/in/out/in of the glow plugs will gobble up an hour.

Again, from a technicians' perspective, these kinds of issues can be very frustrating to diagnose and get right. We see these coming in from time to time (probably I fix about 6 to 8 Mitsi ECUs each year) and they can be a bugger to nail down as they will work one minute, and then fail randomly some other time.

The ECU controls both the glow plugs and the EGR functions... the system is actually fairly complex, and the diagnosis can have you going in circles a few times before you hone in on the actual cause. Been there, done that, still fall into the same diagnostic traps on these ones...

It's easy to be critical of it if you don't understand it.

~John

 

[LanceCruiser]

I know I said I was done with this thread, but I would like to thank tlc81 and Radd Cruiser for their replies. John at Ateb did mention that it seems like the neutral switch was written in as a typo, I think he said they called about it, and was told they knew about it, but was never corrected. It didn't make sense to him that it would be for an automatic since it's common for them to have that saftey switch already. It made more sense to him, that the government would require it on a manual, because most modern manuals have a clutch saftey switch. I will let him know about it.

 

[WrenchMonkey]

wow I'm glad I drive a BJ42 not so much drama. LOL

but I am now going to call ATEB about there outback vehicles as I have wanted to get up close and personal with a pinzgauer for a long time, I was told by out back that they got serviced somewhere in the lower mainland so now i know.

see this thread might have gotten ateb a new customer

 

[sailor]

Attention Please!

I made an error and a poor comment in a previous post (21) that I wish to retract and apologize for.

TLC 81 - I thought you were someone else and I made a comment stating that I knew who you were and I would relay that information to ateb. I have subsequently learned that I was mistaken in who you actually are, In fact I don't know you at all. If you like I will delete that section from the post. Please consider accepting my personal apology for that inacurate and un called for statement.

Again my apolgies to TLC 81 on this issue.

 

[sailor]

Funny as I jumped on here after thinking about how to handle my above post for some time and didn't realize there had been more replies. After reading John form Radd's comments I am refreshed to get a business owner's perspective. My business is dealing with odd marine components (like odd jdm vehicles in a way) and I know well the frustrations of trying to make a go of it in the face of all the pitfalls waiting to bankrupt you, despite your best efforts and commitment. Interesting, lucid post.

New topic.


The Mitsubishi ecu issue sounds like the Cold Solder Joint issue in an electronic component I sell. It isn't my fault the sealed component fails 80% of the time, but I have to go swap it out despite the fact that there is little chance the manufacturer will cover me on warranty. I just go there and change it, eat the time, and protect my customer so he will buy from me again in the future. That is the cold reality of business. If it has been monkeyed with I will hand it back and refuse to take responsibility for it. Of course there are individual times when I will try to help, like if it is a good long term customer who understands that I must limit my liability.

"A question, why did ATEB refund ATIBI's money if they didn't do anything wrong? I know if I was in their shoes, I sure wouldn't be doing that or my business would soon be broke."
-Canucksafari

An answer:

Canucksafari has an interesting business perspective when he mentions that you will soon go broke if you keep giving refunds. Possibly you will- you sure as hell wont get rich! every now and then it is better to blow off a difficult customer ( I've been lucky- only 2 in my experience) than continue to allow him to poison you. Also, if there is no completed payment he cant come back and stick it up you for warranty. Better to take the high road, as Ateb did here. John, do you own a service business? What is it that you do for a living. You seem to have all the answers ( engineer perhaps?) Judging from your enormous collection of posts here, on the Patrol boards, and elsewhere ( you must be over like 10,000?) you obviously have little spare time away from the keyboard. (lol)

Finally,

John -I have addressed why you couldn't buy your filter from ateb- because the rare part was pre sold to another customer.

John - A third party has confirmed that the wheel bearing service flat rates out to 4.5 hours (hmmm 4.5 times shop rate +- $89 + tax= $452.565) add any parts? I'm glad you have the ability to do the job better, faster and cleaner than ATEB (that was sarcasm, incidentally) You likely dont have the ability to give me an invoice for the service, provide liability insurance to cover me if it screws up etc.

- Do you expect to walk into a business and dictate to them what a service costs? Car shops work off the flat rate book for routine service. Like to see you try that one down at the shipyard, you'd find yourself forcibly extruded out of the mail slot!

John- I dont know what happened to your ICBC Rotor. Maybe there is another side to that one?

John, is the filter in the below quoted post the same part number as the one that upset you so terribly that ateb coudn't sell you because, again, it was pre sold to another customer?

"I was in the Langley PA today on the way back from picking up my Patrol parts shipment from Europe in Richmond . Yes, I will no longer be at the mercy of a couple parts suppliers and paying $60 just for oil filters each oil change. "
-canucksafari

What a triumph for you, and by the way- thanks for supporting the local RHD vehicle vendors and supporters!

 

[kim]

It's getting a little personal around here, isn't it?

It's none of my business but....relax everyone.

My opinion is that the original thread had no business being posted and this has spawned additional animosity among a pretty damn good group of people.

 

[Abitibi]

Hey kim,

Looking back at the whole thing you might be right. I didn't intend on opening a can or worms, just thought of sharing my experience as "buyer beware"... I don't have any issues if administrator wish to delete both posts.

Cheers,
Mr. D

 

[Stone]

The neutral safety switch is required in automatics, and that is what the aforementioned letter says - it's just that it does not specifically say that. If you take the time to actually read the inspection requirements in detail, you will find that where a neutral safety switch (and just about any other factory installed safety feature) was installed in that particular vehicle, then it must remain in place and be in good working order. There is no requirement in BC to install such a switch in a manual transmission vehicle where one did not already exist.


~John

That's what I meant to say, John...thanks for clearing that up. I mixed up the neutral safety switch and the clutch safety switch in manual trannys. Cheers.

 

[Granite Grinder]

I don't have any issues if administrator wish to delete both posts.
Cheers,
Mr. D

Last time I deleted a thread I was accused of censorship, so this one will ride. I believe both sides of this story have been seen, more or less. We're not talking religion or politics so I can't see any real hatred forming. If it gets much more personal I'll re-evaluate.

Admin

 

[canucksafari]

Canucksafari has an interesting business perspective when he mentions that you will soon go broke if you keep giving refunds. Possibly you will- you sure as hell wont get rich! every now and then it is better to blow off a difficult customer ( I've been lucky- only 2 in my experience) than continue to allow him to poison you. Also, if there is no completed payment he cant come back and stick it up you for warranty. Better to take the high road, as Ateb did here. John, do you own a service business? What is it that you do for a living. You seem to have all the answers ( engineer perhaps?) Judging from your enormous collection of posts here, on the Patrol boards, and elsewhere ( you must be over like 10,000?) you obviously have little spare time away from the keyboard. (lol)

Finally,

John -I have addressed why you couldn't buy your filter from ateb- because the rare part was pre sold to another customer.

John - A third party has confirmed that the wheel bearing service flat rates out to 4.5 hours (hmmm 4.5 times shop rate +- $89 + tax= $452.565) add any parts? I'm glad you have the ability to do the job better, faster and cleaner than ATEB (that was sarcasm, incidentally) You likely dont have the ability to give me an invoice for the service, provide liability insurance to cover me if it screws up etc.

- Do you expect to walk into a business and dictate to them what a service costs? Car shops work off the flat rate book for routine service. Like to see you try that one down at the shipyard, you'd find yourself forcibly extruded out of the mail slot!

John- I dont know what happened to your ICBC Rotor. Maybe there is another side to that one?

John, is the filter in the below quoted post the same part number as the one that upset you so terribly that ateb coudn't sell you because, again, it was pre sold to another customer?

"I was in the Langley PA today on the way back from picking up my Patrol parts shipment from Europe in Richmond . Yes, I will no longer be at the mercy of a couple parts suppliers and paying $60 just for oil filters each oil change. "
-canucksafari

What a triumph for you, and by the way- thanks for supporting the local RHD vehicle vendors and supporters!

I am not quite sure what your problem is Sailor other than I did not agree with you about ATEB. I think I have explained the three experiences enough times not to bore everyone again. I have also explained my OPINIONon their price they quoted me.

If you actually read my posts you should be able to see that I was even willing to give the current ATEB personnel/owners the benefit of the doubt. I don't see why you need to malign engineers or any profession or comment on the number of posts a person has to defend ATEB. I suppose the number of posts means something to you. I just enjoy learning from others on forums like MUD and being able to contribute something or to banter about.

I am also sure that John of Radd Cruisers knows that book time is an estimate. <BTW, John stated it was 3.5hrs. I guess the math for 4.5 hrs worked better for you. > My father ran a refrigeration and AC repair business which included heavy equiptment. So, I have a little bit of experience with book time. If he was working on a new unit, he might give a customer an estimate based on book time to cover his bases. Other than that his estimate was based on his experience and he charged the actual time it took to do the repair. I'll admit that my 30 min per side was an exaggeration - maybe an hour a side . In the case of the Safari, I have a very hard time believeing that it actually takes a trained mechanic in a properly equipped shop 3.5 hrs, especially one who has done this job many times on the same vehicle. Of course if you hand pack each bearing, it would take additional time. The first time I did it, it took a long time and we hand packed the bearings. But we were also doing new brakes and the rotors were rust welded and had to be pressed of the hub.

As for the RHD vehicles, my motive with IVOAC has nothing to do with RHD vendors or service providers. The focus of IVOAC has been on the rights of individuals to own and operate RHDs. Its something I believe in and care about. What I do as a volunteer is on that basis and needs no recognition from you or anyone else.

As far as doing my own importing of consumable parts and doing most of my own wrenching, man you got to be kidding. I'm not sure what your priorities are but my first priority is my family finances. Unlike you, I don't have $15,000 a year to pay to ATEB or any other business related to my vehicles.
This ATEB thing is pretty much . You can keep on recommending them at the top of your list and I'll recommend others on the top of my list.