Another ABS Brake Failure

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T

tdkhelene

Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Threads
19
Messages
161
Location
Seattle WA
My wife just finished coming down from one of the local mountain passes when the ABS light turns on and the beeper alarm started flashing. She had the presence of mind to pull off the freeway at the next exit and into a parking lot. The last push of the break pedal went straight to the floor... NO BAKES!!!! :eek: Had it towed to the shop and, sure enough... it was diagnosed as the dreaded ABS motor / accumulator failure. After looking high and low, there's only 3 of these d@mned things in the entire country and all three are on the east coast. Almost 3K for the part... 1K for removal & replacement... all this for a part that should have been recalled!?!? This seems to be a common failure on these rigs ('99 LX-470). I am amazed that no-one has been killed yet! (Maybe I'm just not aware of any yet). How come this is not recalled? How come I'm spending 4K on a part that darn near killed my family!?! This is outrageous! We should all get a piece of a class action settlement or something. Thankfully no-one was hurt... but 30 minutes earlier and it would have been an entirely different story. Any thoughts on how to get this recognized as a legitimate safety problem?
 
How many miles on the vehicle?
 
By all means report this to safercar.gov. As more and more of these complete brake failures occur, eventually Toyota may have to take some corrective action. I suspect that if all the failures to date had been reported by either owners or dealers, Toyota might have recalled the failed parts.

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/online.cf.

That link may not work, but you can get there by going to safercar.gov.
 
FWIW I just replaced my pump and accumulator about a month ago. I'm not sure why you are under the impression that there are only three of them. I ordered mine from Camelback Toyota. It was around $1200 I believe. They need the VIN and you need to let them know its for a Lexus or Toyota will not release the part. Its really not too difficult of a job if you do it yourself. There is a good write-up by ski-doo on how to remove the whole assembly, and as a bonus, you can take the opportunity to rebuild the MC. I did take it to the Lexus dealer for a proper bleed afterward, and to see the dumbfounded look on their faces at the fact I did this myself. This does seem to be more and more common on the 99's though. Maybe something to add to the buyers guide?
 
@tdkhelene - Try one of the mud vendors. When mine went out last year I was able to save significant $ by going with a very reputable source (beno). Highly recommended.
 
Definitely check with Camelback Toyota. They are located in Phoenix and a MUD sponsor. They will take care of you. Tell @murf that @bluecruiser sent you....Good luck with resolving this issue and I am glad to hear there was a safe ending.
 
The truck has 106,000 miles. I had tried calling CruiserDan over at ABQ Toyota but all I got was a message with no call backs... I know he's probably a busy guy so I won't hold it against him. ;) I'll try reporting it to safecar.gov... we can only hope that there's some sort of resolution to this because at some point someone is going to get dead because of it.
 
I don't recall the particulars of this type of failure. It's certainly understandable that you may be ticked off at the failure and cost to fix, and we're all glad your wife is OK, but don't forget that she didn't get killed *because* Toyota at least did put in the sensor and an alarm... Brake systems are just mechanical devices. They are bound to fail sooner or later. No such thing as one that will work forever... The truck is 16 years old. It's not like it failed straight from the gate. What did you want Toyota to do differently, exactly?
 
I am hoping you can react in two minutes Keowee. :steer:

I have to agree with e9999 here. I am extremely happy your family is ok, but this brake failure is about the only thing we are seeing happen repeatedly in these vehicles (besides maybe steering racks). I know it seems like it is happening a lot, but that is because people come here and ask questions when things break not when everything is working fine. I am sure this failure is a small fraction of the vehicles on the road, and it is failing 100k miles plus in a decade plus old truck. Toyota makes a fantastic product, but they can't warranty every part forever. I could understand a recall if they failed without warning and the next time you press the breaks it hits the floor, but they give you a light and a buzzer before it happens. That is a lot more than say an old ball joint going at speed. EEEK!

:cheers:
Again, I am sorry for your troubles and glad to hear everyone is ok. Wish you the best on your fix .
 
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Does this problem seem to be limited to the LX470 or is it common to both the Toy and Lex?
 
montegofd3s said:
I know it seems like it is happening a lot, but that is because people come here and ask questions when things break not when everything is working fine. I am sure this failure is a small fraction of the vehicles on the road, and it is failing 100k miles plus in a decade plus old truck. Toyota makes a fantastic product, but they can't warranty every part forever. I could understand a recall if they failed without warning and the next time you press the breaks it hits the floor, but they give you a light and a buzzer before it happens. That is a lot more than say an old ball joint going at speed. EEEK!
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There are 10's of thousands of other makes / models of vehicles with ABS that don't completely loose their brakes when the ABS module goes out. You can easily keep the ability to brake without triggering the ABS valve system. We do that every day. My issue is that this is a MAJOR safety concern... We've heard about the GM ignition module failures that have only affected a small percentage of vehicles... Do you think that this is any less of a safety issue? Yes... Toyota has put warning lights and buzzers to warn of an impending failure... but what if you were in a tunnel, on a bridge or a single lane road with no shoulders... What if you were coming down off a mountain pass? A two minute warning is like a count-down timer on a time bomb. Don't get me wrong... I love the 'Cruizer as much as anyone here... I'm just shocked that this is considered a "common" failure on these rigs, yet there is no recall, no Technical Service Bulletin, no warranty... nothing from corporate. Mark my words... one day we will have a post on Mud about one of these failures that didn't end so well. :( I am not usually so amped up, but when the safety of my family is at risk (which is why I bought a 'Cruiser in the first place) I tend to get a little animated.
 
tdkhelene said:
There are 10's of thousands of other makes / models of vehicles with ABS that don't completely loose their brakes when the ABS module goes out. You can easily keep the ability to brake without triggering the ABS valve system. We do that every day. My issue is that this is a MAJOR safety concern... We've heard about the GM ignition module failures that have only affected a small percentage of vehicles... Do you think that this is any less of a safety issue? Yes... Toyota has put warning lights and buzzers to warn of an impending failure... but what if you were in a tunnel, on a bridge or a single lane road with no shoulders... What if you were coming down off a mountain pass? A two minute warning is like a count-down timer on a time bomb. Don't get me wrong... I love the 'Cruizer as much as anyone here... I'm just shocked that this is considered a "common" failure on these rigs, yet there is no recall, no Technical Service Bulletin, no warranty... nothing from corporate. Mark my words... one day we will have a post on Mud about one of these failures that didn't end so well. :( I am not usually so amped up, but when the safety of my family is at risk (which is why I bought a 'Cruiser in the first place) I tend to get a little animated.
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I am sorry if I was coming off as offensive or rude I was just trying to put it into perspective. I agree they should release a TSB on the issue or maybe offer an inspection. I agree that everyone should report the issue and hopefully toyota does do something about it. That would benefit us all. I was just trying see it from all sides.
 
No offense taken. It's forums like this that can provide mounds of information and history on these types of issues. Sometimes a person needs a place to blow off a little steam in a forum where people can actually understand the core problem. I've always appreciated the 'Mud community and the honest answers (and opinions) people are sharing.

Something that'd be really helpful is to find some way to diagnose the actual condition of an existing system. It'd be great to try an compile a list of potential symptoms that may have been occurring before a failure of this nature.
Looking back, there were a couple of things that I noted with the braking system:
1) The brake pedal seemed to "stick" at the bottom (every so slightly) after holding your foot on the pedal at a stoplight.
2) The brake pedal also seemed to have a slightly "softer" feel when doing a quick-stop.

I only bought this 99 LX-470 back in February after our '98 'Cruiser was involved in a wreck... The '98's brakes felt much stronger and sure footed than this one.

I know that's not much... but maybe someone else can remember back to any potential "pre-cursor" symptoms that may have shown up before the total brake failure.
 
"1) The brake pedal seemed to "stick" at the bottom (every so slightly) after holding your foot on the pedal at a stoplight.
2) The brake pedal also seemed to have a slightly "softer" feel when doing a quick-stop"

I have both of these symptoms also. :bang: I haven't had a problem yet, but I have noticed the slight stick and the softness. It hasn't gotten worse in the past year (18k miles), but like you said it is instant. I will keep an eye one it.
 
My 99 had the stick and the softer feel. I did the MC rebuild (a few threads about this) and it got about 85% better. Never had a total failure, though.
 
I'm getting the bad parts back from the mechanic so I can dig into them and see what the heck went wrong. I know they are not considered "serviceable" parts... but I'm a "McGyver" at heart so I'd like to know what actually went wrong and if there's a work-around to fix it. I'll keep you guys posted on this thread as I get into this. I should have the truck (and parts) back by Thursday.
 
I'm having a hard time writing a cool-headed response to posts implying that the brakes are bound to completely fail sooner or later and that we are all supposed to know exactly what to do immediately if the ABS light flashes and that based only on MUD reports complete brake failure affects only a few vehicles, so I'll just say I disagree.
 
I tend to agree with @tdkhelene 's assessment. Knowing that the brakes could go out due to the information on this forum was always in the back of my mind. I'm just glad they went out around town (although I barely missed heading into oncoming traffic). Had they gone out going 80+ on I-70 after spending a day in the Swell the day before is not something I want to contemplate.

That said, it's my understanding that the fix in the MC thread only addresses the soft/squishy pedal problem. And just for informational purposes, I tend to drive fast and am hard on the brakes. That's one reason why it was a lingering thought.
 
Mentioned this before but its worth repeating: Brake fluid is hygroscopic and will collect and hold water molecules. Its good PM and generally recommended by most/all car manufacturers to completely bleed and renew brake fluid on a 2-year cycle. In racing circles this PM cycle is much shorter.

The small ABS passages and hydraulic valves would be, along with the entire brake system components, especially susceptible to corrosion from contaminated brake fluid. And diminished brake performance is another effect of moisture contaminated brake fluid (lowered boiling point of the fluid).

Whether or not contaminated brake fluid was responsible for the OP's ABS issue may never be known. But I'm a big believer in regular flushing of the brake fluid...and properly flushing/bleeding the ABS circuit.
 
So i might be off base here, but its my understanding that total loss of brake pedal occurs when you have a failure of the booster motor. The FJ100s (not sure about others) use some sort of electric motor as a booster (vs a vacuum system or belt driven system). This is just my personal theory, but it seems like this pump masks master cylinder issues. On my truck (98, 150k mi) I noticed that after sitting for a couple of days I had no residual pressure in my brake pedal until i turned the truck power on. When truck power is turned on, the system pressurizes and the brakes work fine. Now that i replaced my MC, i no longer have a super soft pedal after letting it sit (to be fair though, its not quite firm either). I dont know how the master cylinder is constructed, but in conventional master cylinder designs the brakes work without the booster conncted. Braking will require a great amount of force, but they still work.

So, if I am correct that the pump masks a MC failure, my theory is that people are driving around with questionable master cylidners and the only thing keeping the brakes working is the booster pump. When the pump fails, the master cylinder is unable to generate enough pressure for the brakes to work... and you see total brake failure.

But, that's just my personal theory. I do NOT know enough about the braking system to fully understand whats happening, it just seems like this is the case.

Also, the master cylinder is serviceable with a rebuild, though i don't think the motor is intended to be. I saw something a motor shop in Los Angeles being able to rebuild them, but im not sure what that entails.
 
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