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- #21
Good ole #7
Another 2013 Head Gasket
- Thread starter Wolvie
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If I had to do a HG I would be really tempted to pull the engine. I won’t how much more that costs? It would make doing the motor mounts and steering rack easy, there’s likely other stuff you can get to more easily, and even doing the HG would be easier on an engine stand.
The steering rack is $1000ish (maybe less depending) but the labor for me was another $1500 IIRC. I did live with mine leaking for like 50-60k miles before mine was leaking enough between oil changes to notice.
The steering rack is $1000ish (maybe less depending) but the labor for me was another $1500 IIRC. I did live with mine leaking for like 50-60k miles before mine was leaking enough between oil changes to notice.
Damn
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- #25
I hear that. I'm slightly convinced that my excessive worrying actually willed it into reality.
Now that I'm getting it addressed, I'll at least have it behind me. Now I just gotta convince my wife that we'll be good on big repairs for a while...
If you end up having your engine repaired vs tossing another in, swap all four of your chain tensioners. I have about 6k on mine after the engine work and the idle sounds like a swiss watch with all the fresh timing components. Yes I have new heads and such but I'm pretty sure the tensioners made the biggest difference.
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- #27
Love this. Thank you.
How often were you changing coolant? Seeing as old coolant becomes acidic and eats the gaskets it would be wise to stay on top of this. 2011 with 231k miles and no coolant leaks.
There is a big head gasket/coolant thread where multiple users tested the pH of their coolant of varying ages. Basically none were acidic.
I’m not saying there isn’t a chemical incompatibility, but the data posted here suggests it isn’t an acidity thing alone.
Plus, my coolant being changed per Toyota's schedule didn’t prevent a failed HG in my case. No overheat events either.
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I'll have to look for that thread. HG failure definitely isn't acidity alone but it is a big factor. I'd like to hear more from OP regarding if he is the original owner and the cooling system maintenance.
There are many variables that can bring light to main causes. We're you the original owner and did you do the radiator replacement during your ownership? Did you often have your vehicle under heavy load or just leisure cruising?
I wasn't the original owner, but got the truck at 105 and the typical radiator crack was just starting to form, no leaks yet. I did the first coolant exchange with the radiator at that time. Second coolant exchange at 155, third with the new design radiator around 200. Slight misfire on cold start at 235k turned out to be a HG failure in the typical spot on the #8 cylinder.
During my ownership it never got hot, and given the service notes and condition when I got it I doubt it happened with the previous owner. I would periodically inspect the valley plate area with a borescope as best I could, not finding evidence of a leak nor any appreciable coolant loss. When I did the HG job there was very slight evidence of a valley plate leak but it was so minor that lost coolant must have been in the ounces over a period of years range so I wouldn't call it a contributing factor.
My use has been relatively light duty, very little towing, lots of highway miles, though I do live in central texas so the summers are pretty warm. PO was in Tennessee, It does look like they did some towing based on the condition of the hitch receiver, but I don't know what or how often. Either way their use stopped around 105k and the HG let go after another 130k.
My takeaway is whether or not it's coolant acidity as a root cause, following toyota's recommendation for coolant exchanges isn't frequent enough, especially for the pre-2014 rigs built before the HG update. Though I do seem to remember at least one 2014 with a good history losing a gasket. My advice to owners of basically any toyota is cut the recommended mileage intervals in half. I'm not certain even that is good enough for certain years. And if that's best practice, there are a whole lot of owners that it's too late to start now. They must be getting nervous reading these threads.
I only called out the acidity thing because this is a real issue and I want the best information getting out there. Ultimately the recommendation to change coolant often is wise, IMO, but until we see concrete proof that acidity is the root issue, I'd prefer to call it a chemical incompatibility. Either way, looks really bad for toyota.. on top of the problems with the V35A.
New to reading on the HG stuff. Am I understanding correctly that all 2008-2014 models have a higher HG failure risk or is it commonly a 2013 thing?
Good datapoints. Unpopular, but accurate take imo: I am still believing this is a design issue of the HG vs being pH of coolant as the main contributor to HG failures.
I have done multiple drain and fills of coolant even before 100k on my 2021. I will do a couple more at 100k. This is overkill imo and isn’t reasonable given scheduled maintenance intervals per the manual.
I have done multiple drain and fills of coolant even before 100k on my 2021. I will do a couple more at 100k. This is overkill imo and isn’t reasonable given scheduled maintenance intervals per the manual.
Aside from part number do we know what the update was? Metallurgy? Soft goods? Sealing surface area?
I can't remember whether someone went back and collected data on what has been reported, but it sure *feels* like 2013 has been an especially problematic year. But there have been plenty in the year ranges before that, and as I mentioned I'm pretty sure at least one 14 and maybe a 15. And that's just what is getting posted here.
The later model years (16+) sure seem less likely, but in general those would have less calendar age and operating hours on them too.
If I had a lower mileage rig I'd absolutely be doing that too.
Really, with new gaskets and a nearly new cooling system, I will be..
Not sure. I doubt it's metallurgy, as it doesn't seem to be the stainless sheet material that fails.. it is generally the viton coating separating from the stainless sheet.
One interesting detail.. on the ones that get torn apart, the viton has usually mostly separated from the stainless on the parts of the gasket not sandwiched between the head and deck. Like the areas with direct coolant exposure, the slots of the open-deck area on the block. The viton in those areas has usually bubbled up and separated, if not already flaked off and made it into other parts of the cooling system.
I'll grant that it's not being physically restrained like the other areas of the gasket, but my understanding is that MLS (multi-layer steel) gaskets aren't supposed to do that.
We'd probably need feedback from someone that has torn down a lot of engines to tell me if that's accurate or not though.
The update was likely higher performing layers of Viton and/or improved bonding to the stainless steel layer. Maybe Toyota just didn’t manufacture these failing gaskets with material that was up for the task?
According to Victor Reinz, two things will delaminate the Viton, acidic coolant and too much heat. Given that testing has yet to reveal acidic coolant, my vote is for heat. Toyota runs these things hotter for efficiency/emissions via the coolant jacket spacers. The spacers reduce coolant flow to the intake side of the cylinders, which appears to limit flow to the cross drilling coolant entry points. Given the location of those between cylinders, are certainly an area of elevated temps. Of course, the exit of the cross drillings is where the head gasket fails. It’s also quite narrow there, that gives the head gasket limited real estate to work with. The V35A engine is very generous in this location. It also has trimmed down coolant jacket spacers on the intake side, so flow is high and does not block cross drill flow. Too bad their bearings implode.
According to Victor Reinz, two things will delaminate the Viton, acidic coolant and too much heat. Given that testing has yet to reveal acidic coolant, my vote is for heat. Toyota runs these things hotter for efficiency/emissions via the coolant jacket spacers. The spacers reduce coolant flow to the intake side of the cylinders, which appears to limit flow to the cross drilling coolant entry points. Given the location of those between cylinders, are certainly an area of elevated temps. Of course, the exit of the cross drillings is where the head gasket fails. It’s also quite narrow there, that gives the head gasket limited real estate to work with. The V35A engine is very generous in this location. It also has trimmed down coolant jacket spacers on the intake side, so flow is high and does not block cross drill flow. Too bad their bearings implode.
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Given all the coolant leaks these things encounter like the radiator and valley plate it certainly seems like heat would play a part. Is the 3UR in a 200 running a bit hotter under normal operation due to tuning or some other factors than it does in a Tundra or Sequoia? Perhaps over time and tens of thousands of miles this can rear it's head.
And if the head gasket itself is supposedly the problem, wasn't the exact same head gasket part number for the 3UR also used in the 1UR? Yet the GX460 doesn't "seem" to have as many head gasket issues as the 200 (though there are some reports).
This problem exists across many of Toyota’s engines including the GR V6, as they all use the 105.5mm bore spacing with cross drillings. The 3UR just seems to be the worst of them due to the cooling jackets. The system doesn’t run hotter overall, it runs hotter around the cylinder block walls, in certain areas, due to the coolant jacket insulating design used for the V8. The intake side is very restricted, especially when compared to other Toyota engines, and that is where the passages are that feed coolant between the cylinders, that’s where the head gasket blows. It also blows in the same spot on the GR V6, it’s just not as restricted in the coolant jacket area, so we hear of it less. That’s the best I can come up with with the info we have.
The GX 1UR is lower power, so perhaps that allows it to sneak by with less failures? All the UR Series engines use the same coolant jacket spacer, but I suspect other differences in the various vehicles cooling systems (example, many Lexus cars with the UR have degas/expansion tanks) and overall vehicle designs limit the failures here, too.
The GX 1UR is lower power, so perhaps that allows it to sneak by with less failures? All the UR Series engines use the same coolant jacket spacer, but I suspect other differences in the various vehicles cooling systems (example, many Lexus cars with the UR have degas/expansion tanks) and overall vehicle designs limit the failures here, too.
Long live the 2UZ. Best motor T ever made.